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(Discussion) Did the Canucks ruin Jake Virtanen's development by gifting him a spot on the team?

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36 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Jake had tons of chances to make himself into a solid NHL'er. 

As other's have said. He has the tools, but he doesn't know how to use the tools. 

He has issues with consistency as well.

 

He had lots of team-mates or coaches he could have turned to, to help him improve. 

 

I wonder if he could reach out to teammates though

Jake does not seem well liked by his teammates

And if allegationare true, you have to wonder if teammates had an idea about it but maybe not proof.

With so many players married, who among them wants to hang withJake?

Especially after the Leipic thing.

Not hard to imagine Jake and Brenden getting along with each other but not anyone else.

 

On the other hand, didn't Jake spend last offseason with Myers?

It would be interesting to get Myers to speak candidly, but I doubt that will ever happen

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Jake is a man.  
 

sure it wasn’t an ideal situation, the club should have sent him to Finland if the they were so concerned about his situation in Calgary in Junior.  
 

JV also messed up so many times, this current situation is due to his lack of maturity.  
 

at 25 your an adult and responsible to act for yourself and to your future.  
 

Jake played like he never had to worry about his future.

 

We all learn or fail to learn at our own pace.  
 

Why JV seems stunted in his development is Jakes issue,  let him be responsible for it and maybe he can grow as a person and become a better player or not from that personal growth.  
 

 

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You could say McCann was also gifted a spot that year, yet he seems to have had a decent career. I remember that video of JV, McCann and a third player out on the town in NY and they stopped at a hot dog stand, where JV was caught on camera munching on a hot dog while McCann abstained from that fatty diet. That was a very illustrative scenario.

 

Like most are saying, this sad state of affairs is on Jake. You would think he would have learnt a lesson from watching Kassian's career fall apart (before his resurrection).

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8 hours ago, stawns said:

they ruined his development by always giving the stick and never giving the carrot.  He improved every year, despite being given unfavourable icetime and starts.  He never complained, he just went out and did what they asked him to do and was never, ever rewarded.  I like Green, but he ruined what could have been a dominant player

Not sure what Jake needed was more stuff handed to him that he didn’t earn. Seems more the problem than the solution 

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I don't know how many of you have been around since this franchise joined the NHL. But, so many of those early first rounders the Canucks picked were in fact rushed into the NHL by the team back then. These kids (18 and 19 years old) made the team because the team wasn't good enough. I would say the only two that had decent careers in the 70's were Don Lever and Dale Tallon. Bob Daily's career was shortened because of injury, but he was a much better player in Philly than he showed here. The rest, Rick Blight, Vervegaert, Geavremount (sp), Jere Gillis, were all rushed even though they were great rookies. Years three and four you could see they needed to have spent some time in the minors. That said, at the time the Canucks shared their farm team with other clubs.

I think what it boils down to is was Jake one of those kids? To a certain extent he was, but the onus was on him to get better. We have no idea what goes on in an NHL locker room, although some of us think we do. But, I don't think Jake was ever tuned in to the pro game. Flashes yes, but consistency no. He never came to camp game ready, even though as we've heard many players reached out to him to train together. I hope he doesn't completely crash and burn, but I don't have hope for that either. Youth and big money, some handle it, many don't. I hope his family has plan B worked out.

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7 hours ago, Fan since 82 said:

Benning or Aqualini?

True,  fans at that time were frustrated that we never draft a BC boy and our team was full of Swedes.  Marketing nightmare taking Nylander, but I still would have done it.

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1 hour ago, johngould21 said:

I don't know how many of you have been around since this franchise joined the NHL. But, so many of those early first rounders the Canucks picked were in fact rushed into the NHL by the team back then. These kids (18 and 19 years old) made the team because the team wasn't good enough. I would say the only two that had decent careers in the 70's were Don Lever and Dale Tallon. Bob Daily's career was shortened because of injury, but he was a much better player in Philly than he showed here. The rest, Rick Blight, Vervegaert, Geavremount (sp), Jere Gillis, were all rushed even though they were great rookies. Years three and four you could see they needed to have spent some time in the minors. That said, at the time the Canucks shared their farm team with other clubs.

I think what it boils down to is was Jake one of those kids? To a certain extent he was, but the onus was on him to get better. We have no idea what goes on in an NHL locker room, although some of us think we do. But, I don't think Jake was ever tuned in to the pro game. Flashes yes, but consistency no. He never came to camp game ready, even though as we've heard many players reached out to him to train together. I hope he doesn't completely crash and burn, but I don't have hope for that either. Youth and big money, some handle it, many don't. I hope his family has plan B worked out.

I have also watched every season. Along the way one of the biggest improvements we made was getting our own farm team and not sharing it with other teams. Our players developed our way. We have not done a great job of it historically especially with players we want to be the power forwards. Jim Sandlak, Cam Neely, Jake. Its a more difficult player to develop and you need patience which neither the organization nor the fans in this city have. Bertuzzi made it, He might be the exception. Most of our stars came in ready to go either through trade (Naslund) or exceptional work ethic and talent. (Smyl,Linden, Bure). Not a lot of development.

You make a good point about rushing players into the line up especially when the team is on the down cycle. What made Detroit so competitive for so long was they had a great team and were able to keep their developing players in the AHL longer than most teams. When their players finally made the leap to the NHL they were definitely ready.

 

This team has a lot of good young talent, and this year may surprise a lot of people as to where they are amongst the playoff challengers. Edmonton looks like they may have taken a step back. Calgary for sure. Being back in  the pacific division should help. Our top 9 looks solid. Our Goal tending could be stellar. The D needs a nasty piece of work that can defend. PK specialist that hits and makes life miserable in front of our net. Doesnt have to be a top 4 kind of guy. Just a top 6 with some size and attitude. OEL will eat some minutes up that Edler was playing before.

 

The kids are no longer kids. They are starting to get to the age where we need them to start producing. No more excuses about salary cap restrictions. They have the cash to sign Petey Quinn Garland and others. Especially if they can find a trade partner for Holtby.

 

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This really should have been a poll. 

 

But the answer is an emphatic no. Jake was handed more chances than most players imo. He was given ice time on all lines until Green figured out the riddle of how to use him most effectively. If it wasn't for Green, I think he'd be long gone from a player pov. 

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7 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

I have also watched every season. Along the way one of the biggest improvements we made was getting our own farm team and not sharing it with other teams. Our players developed our way. We have not done a great job of it historically especially with players we want to be the power forwards. Jim Sandlak, Cam Neely, Jake. Its a more difficult player to develop and you need patience which neither the organization nor the fans in this city have. Bertuzzi made it, He might be the exception. Most of our stars came in ready to go either through trade (Naslund) or exceptional work ethic and talent. (Smyl,Linden, Bure). Not a lot of development.

You make a good point about rushing players into the line up especially when the team is on the down cycle. What made Detroit so competitive for so long was they had a great team and were able to keep their developing players in the AHL longer than most teams. When their players finally made the leap to the NHL they were definitely ready.

 

This team has a lot of good young talent, and this year may surprise a lot of people as to where they are amongst the playoff challengers. Edmonton looks like they may have taken a step back. Calgary for sure. Being back in  the pacific division should help. Our top 9 looks solid. Our Goal tending could be stellar. The D needs a nasty piece of work that can defend. PK specialist that hits and makes life miserable in front of our net. Doesnt have to be a top 4 kind of guy. Just a top 6 with some size and attitude. OEL will eat some minutes up that Edler was playing before.

 

The kids are no longer kids. They are starting to get to the age where we need them to start producing. No more excuses about salary cap restrictions. They have the cash to sign Petey Quinn Garland and others. Especially if they can find a trade partner for Holtby.

 

The 70's Habs were another example of that. At the time their farm team could have beaten the 70's Canucks. Guy Lafluer took three seasons to win Scotty Bowman over. Of course they took the Golden Seals to the cleaners to get him.

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13 minutes ago, johngould21 said:

The 70's Habs were another example of that. At the time their farm team could have beaten the 70's Canucks. Guy Lafluer took three seasons to win Scotty Bowman over. Of course they took the Golden Seals to the cleaners to get him.

Yes but the 70s Habs had a protection rule in place for Quebec players if i am not mistaken through the 60s so they held an advantage at the time on home grown talent.Once the gates opened up they had a lot of the same issues everyone else had after there 70s run.

Its not easy to scout, develop, have success , rinse repeat. Every team is trying to do the same thing. Benning as a great drafter is getting the team to its foundation players. Now the trick is to tweak with trades and signings to compliment the roster. Thats where a Pat Quinn was so good. Benning has a ways to go here yet.

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8 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

Jake Virtanen actually does win puck battles, moreso than a lot of guys on the team, he has quite a few takeaways and thats with less icetime than everyone else in the top 6, blocks shots and throws the body. He isnt actually “useless” hes just a waste of talent.
 

And when it comes to Virtanen being without the puck, he does a hell of a lot more than you give him credit for. So if you average out hits, blocks, takeaways, giveaways for an 82game season, on ice sv%, PDO career average and zone start avg for vancouver (because Pearson and Miller played elsewhere)

 

Virtanen 82game season average:

hits: 166

blocks: 34

Takeaways: 45

giveaways: 29

PDO: 100.2 (career avg)

oiSV%: .925 (career avg)

ozone starts: 49.7% (career avg)

dzone starts: 50.3% (career avg)
corsi: 50.3 (career avg)

 

Boeser

hits: 35

blocks: 26

takeaways: 33

give aways: 38

PDO: 100.9

oiSV%:  .891

ozone starts: 70%
dzone starts: 30%

corsi: 58.1


Pettersson

Hits: 58

Blocks: 51

takeaways: 44

giveaways: 49
PDO: 102.3

oiSV%: .897

ozone starts: 73.7%
dzone starts: 26.7%
corsi: 60.5

 

Horvat

Hits: 68

Blocks: 55

takeaways: 29

giveaways: 27

PDO: 99.9

oiSV%: .898

ozone starts: 47.1%
dzone starts: 52.9%
corsi: 50.6

 

Miller

hits: 132

blocks: 38

takeaways: 44

giveaways: 53

PDO: 101.7

oiSV%: .905

ozone starts: 59.8%
dzone starts: 40.2%
corsi: 56.1% (avg in van)
 

Pearson

hits: 116

blocks: 38

takeaways: 29

giveaways: 29

PDO: 100.3

oiSV%: .911

ozone starts: 47.2% (avg in van)
dzone starts: 52.8% (avg in van)

Corsi: 49.1 (avg in van)
 

Hoglander

Hits: 38

Blocks: 28

takeaways: 62

give aways: 29

PDO: 98.9

oiSV% .903

ozone starts: 53.7%
dzone starts: 46.3%
corsi: 53.0

Fair play for brining the stats out. I'm on the same page as you that Virtanen's inconsistency was the most frustrating part of his game because as you pointed out, he has the skill package to be an effective player away from the puck, we just didn't see it as often as we wanted.

 

I also anecdotally remember reading before that his isolated defensive metrics were pretty decent in the early stages of his career before they took a nosedive. Would like to see someone with the time break that down.

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Travis and the Canucks staff did everything they could for Jake.

The only mistake the team made was to hi-light him in that first season piling pressure on an 18YO that was at a 14YO maturity level. They thought Bo handled it, so why can't Jake. They realized it and pulled back the reins adding years of development to avail. 

Simply put his didn't have the IQ or heart to excel at this level. 

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Jake has nobody to blame but himself.

 

I'm sure there were times that things could have been handled better with him but for the most part, he had a lot of opportunities based simply on physical potential and draft spot that he didn't deserve.

 

The mistake was drafting him to begin with.

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2 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Jake has nobody to blame but himself.

 

I'm sure there were times that things could have been handled better with him but for the most part, he had a lot of opportunities based simply on physical potential and draft spot that he didn't deserve.

 

The mistake was drafting him to begin with.

it was. It wasn't like he was a  big reach or had big red flags. 

 

Button had him pegged as a 2nd round pick tho, the only major scout that did. Should have listed to Craig. 

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He was given every reasonable chance to succeed.  And then some.  He didn't.  That's on him.  I don't hate the guy, I wish him well, but he's the reason why he's no longer a Canuck and there is nobody else to blame.  GCG!

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6 hours ago, rizzuto&hatoum said:

You could say McCann was also gifted a spot that year, yet he seems to have had a decent career. I remember that video of JV, McCann and a third player out on the town in NY and they stopped at a hot dog stand, where JV was caught on camera munching on a hot dog while McCann abstained from that fatty diet. That was a very illustrative scenario.

 

Like most are saying, this sad state of affairs is on Jake. You would think he would have learnt a lesson from watching Kassian's career fall apart (before his resurrection).

your right McCann was gifted a spot, but he was even worse than Jake at the time we traded him.  but it happened to be the best thing for him. he actually grew up.  now Jake seeing this happen was given the opportunity  to work hard , but he didn't and that was up to Jake, Green gave him all the opportunities he could, i was really mad at Green for giving Jake a free ride when he didn't deserve it. but that is what a good coach does. bye Jake, i won't miss you and your laziness!!!

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9 hours ago, Devron44 said:

He wasn’t just gifted a few shifts. There were many games he played top 6 minutes.
 

Not coaching issue and you proved it with your post. Well thought-out, unbiased (unlike my posts - the kid pissed me off) and I have to say you are right on a lot of things a provided evidence.

 

Players like Hoglander came to camp ready to go. That’s why he was “gifted” a top six spot.

Every year Virtanen was one of the worst conditioned players on the team. Not fat just not ready to go. Start time for him was when camp started. He never gave himself an opportunity from the get go. I bet there were seasons Green wanted to cut him.

 

What proves this thread wrong are the analytics you posted. He did improve under Green in a lot of areas but he never seized the opportunity when given and yes I disagree he had opportunities, many of them. It’s a mixture of lack of willingness and lack of offensive awareness to go along with his immaturity.

Yea he might have been gifted a more than a few shifts, I cant personally recall a game where he stuck in the top 6 for a full 60. He would get bumped up and down throughout games. He definitely had opportunities to take advantage of the icetime he was given but just failed to consistently deliver. Not all players can switch gears in an instant and seize that opportunity. I wouldnt say he was given tons of chances, but certainly did get a good few looks.

 

Idk if you guys noticed it @lmm @Brad Marchand@Devron44

but I think outside of confidence, Jakes biggest issue was a personality issue. He never seemed to be fully engaged, he lacked emotion. He just doesnt have that meanness and snarl in him. And thats a personality issue and not a character flaw. He obviously has some character flaws off ice.

You look at him on camera and its always the same deadpan face, no emotion to it. For a power forward and a guy who needs confidence to build his game, its impossible to build his own confidence if he isnt playing off emotions. Look at Tom Wilson for example, he doesnt have great hands, his hands are decent, but he has lots of confidence and when he isnt scoring he is plastering guys through the boards into the ice, mixing it up and going to the dirty areas with zero f**ks given and his emotions build and build and build and he drives the net harder and harder each time and opens up ice for himself. Same with Josh Anderson, he exudes confidence, how many times in the playoffs did he take the puck right at 2 or 3 guys, get through them and get a chance on goal. He failed to score many times, but his confidence and emotions kept him going right at guys and going straight to the net and you can see it on Anderson and Wilsons face, they show expressions. I honestly cant think of a time where I saw a scowl on Virtanens face after a shift. Maybe Im wrong, but I cant think of a time where I saw emotion in Virtanen. And i think that killed any chance of him being a consistent player

Edited by knucklehead91
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No

 

Jake virtanen could not adjust his game to the system that coaches wanted him to play. 

He could very well take off under another coach. I don't think there was any on ice ill intent by Jake.

Off ice he was  immature and made decisions that were unprofessional at the least . 

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