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[Trade] Lightning trade Tyler Johnson, 2023 2nd-round pick to Blackhawks for Brent Seabrook


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1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

He has value for his LTIR space. 

 

No.  It's negative value.  

 

In 2019, Brisebois traded Callahan's 5.8M LTIR contract for Mike Condon.  Condon spent the season buried and was never recalled to the roster - he had a buried cap hit of 1.325M but it was still preferable than to be in LTIR.  Brisebois himself explained that moving Callahan will allow Tampa to continue to bank cap space to retain flexibility at the TDL and avoid having bonus overages carry into the following season.

 

Got to wonder if Tampa won't try to move that Seabrook contract to Arizona by adding a pick so that they can avoid LTIR and retain cap flexibility.   Guess it depends on the salary still owed for Arizona.

 

This here summarises the trade perfectly:

 

2 hours ago, oldnews said:

he has no 'value' =  it's negative value -that reduced the cost of moving the even greater / considerably negative value of Johnson's contract.

 

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2 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

your trolling me now too? its ok to be wrong. dhudh now sweet summrt child.

 

Im proving LTIR Doesnt add bonus cap space. and i did that quite well.

 

johnson was traded with a second.seabrook was traded because his contract just makes things hard. @oldnews pointed out that this contract is no peach. ask @mll

Tampa's payroll is currently at $82,620,122.  The cap is $81,500,000.  So they are technically $1,120,122 over the cap. 

 

 

ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES q2.svgBONUSESCAP SPACE16$81,500,000$82,620,122$145,122$0-$1,120,122

 

By your own post, CapFriendly states that by moving Seabrook's contract to LTIR they will have $5,754,878 in cap space.

 

 

ROSTER SIZESALARY CAPCAP HITOVERAGES q2.svgBONUSESCAP SPACE16$81,500,000$75,745,122$145,122$0$5,754,878

 

Prior to the trade when Johnson's contract was on the books their payroll was $80,745, 122, so they had $754, 878 in cap space.

 

So they went from having $754,878 in cap space with Johnson to having $5,754,878 in cap space with Seabrook.  They just added Johnson's $5 million salary to their cap space even though he is NO LONGER on the team.  Does that make sense?

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38 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

First Seattle takes Gourde instead of a cheaper player like Colton or Foote.

 

Now Chicago takes Johnson without making Tampa overpay. I thought it would have cost at least a 1st to move Johnson (in similar fashion to Toronto with Marleau).

 

GMs could have hurt Tampa much more, but chose not to. Many questionable decisions being made around the league.

Collusion.

 

It's probably the reason why Schmidt went for a 3rd. These are fair deals because no one wants to screw the other over. In some cases, they'll just bail them out. Maybe there's even a mandate to do it.

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1 hour ago, BPA said:

Is that why TO got those LTIR contracts a few years ago?????

 

They were at risk of losing several millions in cap space and/or not being in position to sign Marner if negotiations dragged into the season.  They wouldn't have been able to maximise the relief on Horton's LTIR.

 

When a team goes in LTIR, there's a new notional cap that is set.  That cap has to be as close as possible to 81.5M (but has to stay under) for a team to be able to maximise the relief - ie have access to the full LTIR cap hit.  On CapFriendly they have it under ACSL - accruable cap space limit.

 

Teams that go in LTIR always lose a bit of cap space - Vancouver lost only 10K this season but a team like St Louis lost 300K because they couldn't make moves to get them close enough to 81.5M to maximise the relief.

 

Toronto had kept normal cap space to sign Marner and was also going to put Horton on LTIR but, if he wasn't signed to start the season they wouldn't have been able to build a roster close to 81.5M to maximise the relief on Horton, which would have cost them cap space.

 

Rather than try and recollect Toronto here's a hypothetical example just using Vancouver.   Say Pettersson isn't signed to start the season and he projects to get 7.5M - ie Vancouver kept 4M in cap space as Ferland is a 3.5M LTIR cap hit which would cover the 7.5M.

 

There is no mathematical way to maximise Ferland's LTIR relief.  The roster without Pettersson but Ferland is 4M under the cap - ie 77.5M.  This doesn't allow them to sign Pettersson.  Putting Ferland on LTIR then would set their new cap limit at 77.5M and have them forfeit 4M.

 

They could recall players from the AHL to try and set the limit higher but rosters are limited to 23 players, they also can't get lower than 20.  Toronto just couldn't find a way to preserve the cap space they had set aside and maximise the relief for Horton to sign Marner.

 

They have to try and build a roster as close as possible to 81.5M to not lose any cap and it was only by adding an LTIR contract that they were going to manage it if negotiations dragged into the season, because of the cap space they had kept.  It would have been easier if they had been able to move Horton's contract but it wasn't insured.

 

Edited by mll
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28 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

Lol how are the Blackhawks out of cap space?

 

Their roster is still bad.

 

Does that roster still include Fleury, their new acquisition?

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42 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Collusion.

 

It's probably the reason why Schmidt went for a 3rd. These are fair deals because no one wants to screw the other over. In some cases, they'll just bail them out. Maybe there's even a mandate to do it.

There likely is an element of that, no one wants to burn a bridge with another team. Don't want to embarrass a team too much, etc.

 

I would think incompetence/poor evaluation plays a large factor too. So many moves being made this offseason (even smaller ones) that are leaving fanbases scratching their heads.

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11 minutes ago, Master Mind said:

There likely is an element of that, no one wants to burn a bridge with another team. Don't want to embarrass a team too much, etc.

 

I would think incompetence/poor evaluation plays a large factor too. So many moves being made this offseason (even smaller ones) that are leaving fanbases scratching their heads.

Ron Francis, who is one of the newer legends of the game, and one that I think was highly regarded as a GM earlier, somehow is pulling out the worst performance ever during expansion.

I know people say there's a lot of moves to be made, but if his expansion picks demonstrate anything at all, they show a GM who thinks he is overthinking the competition. That's not good.

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57 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

Should we be offering Ferland up to Tampa as well? Straight up for Cernak? B)

Will Ferland waive, or is Tampa on his list of 10 teams he won't go to?

He doesn't think he's going to play again, but if he thinks he has a chance; his chance would be much bigger of making the Canucks than Tampa, wouldn't it?

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On 7/28/2021 at 8:26 AM, gurn said:

Will Ferland waive, or is Tampa on his list of 10 teams he won't go to?

He doesn't think he's going to play again, but if he thinks he has a chance; his chance would be much bigger of making the Canucks than Tampa, wouldn't it?

I'm saying because they can use his contract on LTI and we can get something back. Not serious of course, because we may need that little extra space ourselves.

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1 hour ago, elvis15 said:

I'm saying because they can use his contract on LTI and we can get something back. Not serious of course, because we may need that little extra space ourselves.

 

LTIR is a negative. It has cost Vancouver cap space and created bonus overages.


When not in LTIR, each day a team is under the cap they put that cap space aside and can use it in the future to pay bonuses, add at the deadline.  In LTIR that space is forfeited - that cap space can't be banked for future use.

 

Even if they only need 2M of Ferland's 3.5M LTIR cap space - the 1.5M difference will be lost because it's LTIR cap space.  Without his LTIR contract that 1.5M would be banked and used to pay the bonuses or add at the deadline.

 

Being in LTIR is why Vancouver had a bonus overage of 1.7M on their books this past season and will have another 650K this coming season.  Halak's 1.5M bonus will be carried over into 2022/23 with Ferland staying on LTIR.

 

Edited by mll
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On 7/29/2021 at 1:26 AM, gurn said:

Will Ferland waive, or is Tampa on his list of 10 teams he won't go to?

He doesn't think he's going to play again, but if he thinks he has a chance; his chance would be much bigger of making the Canucks than Tampa, wouldn't it?

If Ferland does waive and gets traded to Tampa wont he be better off with tax benefits? Therefore why would you not waive to Tampa?

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On 7/30/2021 at 12:20 AM, mll said:

 

LTIR is a negative. It has cost Vancouver cap space and created bonus overages.


When not in LTIR, each day a team is under the cap they put that cap space aside and can use it in the future to pay bonuses, add at the deadline.  In LTIR that space is forfeited - that cap space can't be banked for future use.

 

Even if they only need 2M of Ferland's 3.5M LTIR cap space - the 1.5M difference will be lost because it's LTIR cap space.  Without his LTIR contract that 1.5M would be banked and used to pay the bonuses or add at the deadline.

 

Being in LTIR is why Vancouver had a bonus overage of 1.7M on their books this past season and will have another 650K this coming season.  Halak's 1.5M bonus will be carried over into 2022/23 with Ferland staying on LTIR.

 

Oh, I know how it works, but when you were so far over as Tampa was, they didn't have a lot of choice. They've corrected a lot of their cap issues though, this deal being a part of that, so I was just making a joke. I figured putting "straight up for Cernak" and the emoji in there would have tipped people off.

 

I honestly haven't even looked (once all our players are signed) if moving Ferlund would get us that advantage, or if it would take it away from Tampa.

Edited by elvis15
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1 hour ago, elvis15 said:

Oh, I know how it works, but when you were so far over as Tampa was, they didn't have a lot of choice. They've corrected a lot of their cap issues though, this deal being a part of that, so I was just making a joke. I figured putting "straight up for Cernak" and the emoji in there would have tipped people off.

 

I honestly haven't even looked (once all our players are signed) if moving Ferlund would get us that advantage, or if it would take it away from Tampa.

Wasn't responding to the Cernak trade proposal but to the comment were you said "we may need that little extra space ourselves".  

 

Vancouver would be much better off if they could move Ferland.  With Ferland on LTIR they are forfeiting any unused cap space as LTIR cap space can't be banked for future use.  Without his contract they would have more cap space for their regular roster and would be able to limit the bonus overage.

 

Edited by mll
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If they can fit everything in, I agree. But I'm not doing math on a long weekend.

 

It did sound like they're fully prepared to be pushing Halak's likely bonus(es) to next year already though, so I'll let them give Tampa a call.

Edited by elvis15
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