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Thoughts on Jimbo's moves and this off-season

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Silky mitts
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Jim has made the team younger, quicker, bigger and harder to play against. We have depth at every position should the injury bug hit. The Poolman signing was a shock (both term and AAV) but I'm hoping he plays well and proves to the fanbase why JB gave him that contract. Aside from how OEL plays, my main concern is Petey and whether his wrist is strong enough to unleash that wicked wrister and one time clapper.

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1 hour ago, Patel Bure said:

I think Poolman is a perfectly fine 3rd pairing 6th dman.  2.5 million is a pretty standard AAV for someone in that position if I’m not mistaken.   Placing Poolman in a top 4 role however and I think you’re asking for trouble.

we'll see, maybe after another season. 

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2 hours ago, RomanP said:

So, all 3 of your "bads" are "let's see how they perform"? Perhaps it's just a "question mark" then, not "bad"?

The OP has a bizarre take.  We are literally on day 2 of free agency and the fans are trying to grade what happened.  That's not how things work.  When it comes to acquisitions, how can you assess how good or bad the signing truly was when they haven't even played a game yet?  Ferland seemed like a good signing.  Eriksson and Holtby seemed like okay signings.  The whole "let's wait and see" applies to Garland just as much as it does to the Poolman.  Hell it's going to apply to Hughes and Pettersson when they get paid too.  Let's say they both get $7 mil for however long.  If Hughes struggles as badly as he did this past year, it will be bad.  If Petey can't stay healthy, it will be bad.  The point being that acquisitions take time to figure out if it worked out or not.

 

Losses, on the other hand, can be assessed more quickly.  Last year, we lost a lot.  Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli, Stecher, and Leivo.  The loss of talent wasn't really replaced, and the team really struggled because of it.  It also annoyed fans because all those five guys just walked.  This offseason, we let Edler walk.  Everyone else was either traded or bought out.  Every single player who did poorly was unloaded.  Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel, Holtby, Virtanen, Schmidt.  All gone.  Most of them were Benning's mistakes to begin with, but they are now gone.  Even if it was partly cleaning up his own mess and at a high price, he did what had to be done.

 

This is all coming from a pretty big Benning hater too.  Jet Black Jim, Benning, I love all them memes.

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I don't hate the moves he made, I rather like them. I hate the timing of them. He's trying to rush us into being a contender within a couple seasons and to be a contender you need prospects to acquire players that put you over the edge or play on the cheap.

 

I give him an A-. 

 

One thing I'm slightly worried about of all things is the play of Garland. I'm ignorant about him, but just based on all of the points he put up last season he's reliant on his teammates. Not a play driver from what I've seen, just a very smart thinker, but he will need a motor to make these plays and I just don't have any idea if he has that (that's the part I'm ignorant about). Without a motor you can end up like a better version of Louie Eriksson (go check out all of the goals that Eriksson put up the year we acquired him and compare it to all of Garland's goals last year, eerily similar). The good news is Garland isn't going to drastically slow down. I just wonder how his game will translate into our system is all. I anticipate a slight dip in production (around 8 points or so) if he isn't a get up and go player so if anybody knows more about the kid if you could please let me know how he is in comparison to say a Hoglander? 

 

With that said, I love the kid's character. I anticipate he will prove me wrong and will end up being one of my favourites this year. He's got great finish and good awareness (things Louie had), it's just a matter of can we get to the front of the net and this team has struggled with that the past couple seasons. I know Garland will go there but will his line mates follow?

 

Either way, he's signed to a fair contract. I was worried he might sign for more when the trade was done because his points alone could have netted him 6 million. I was hoping for 4.5 but his aav is good. 

 

Overall the team is much improved. Our defense is still very questionable and our systems are still stuck with a horrible coach, but with a huge turnover Green may actually play an offensive set up which is what this team badly needs to be successful. We should have more forechecking prowess, and my God Pearson should not be on the 2nd line anymore so this team should be a playoff team (maybe around a 6 seed if I were to guess) with the team anchor now being on a questionable defensive 6, but this team has a lot of range based on that alone for where they end up in the standings. On paper this team should be pretty decent. I wouldn't call it a contender, but it should be able to get in comfortably if they play the way they can. 

 

Jim didn't do horrendously this off-season. He did rather well. I just question the timing of it and hopefully our pro scouts don't let us down with their judgment of OEL and Garland like they have in the past on some players. 

 

I hope the sacrifice is worth it and I can eat crow and watch this team succeed like I know they can. Either way, I'm hyped for this season and I didn't expect I would be aside from seeing Podkolzin join the crew. A weird year to be excited about being a Canucks fan. 

 

Good job, Jimbo. Pretty creative work there. I just hope it doesn't hurt the future but offloading Schmidt helped ease that worry. For once your timing of getting rid of players before they hit their floor on trade value didn't bite you this time! :D

 

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As of right now OEL isnt a top 10 paid Dman in the league. Thanks to jones and werenski but even in 3 years he probably wont even be top 20. I expect solid play outta him and this trade to be one of the best weve ever done with garland doing big things.

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i don't like the way you worded some of this analysis.

 

you can't have garland as good and OEL as bad, they came together as a package

 

I will perform the same anaylysis I have done before this trade when @Patel Bure Proposed a similar trade 

 

@Patel Bure 

 

8.25*6 = 49.5m I suggested Larrsons value was 5.5 million but it could be as 6 million.

if larsson is worth 5.5 million 49.5 - 6*5.5= 16.5 in wasted space

but they retained 1m so the new calculations become 7.25*6=43.5-6*5.5=9.5 million in wasted space.

beags,roussels and LE wasted space12-3.375 =8.625 in wasted space. many would argue that Beagle's value is worth more than 1.125 but I will not.

9.5milliom - 8.625= arizona gains 0.875 m in cap advantage. I'm guessing benning finally agreed OEL's value was worth ~ 5.65 million which would have zeroed out the cap hit's.

 

so we trade a second for the quality of OEL as a player the salary means basically nothing and its a totally fair deal.

now would u trade the 9th OA for Garland? I would, every day.

 

I think this was a very good trade, and believe you have to make trades like this or you just become a team like Buffalo or Edmonton.

 

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4 hours ago, sonoman said:

Did well this year.  Probably need  to correct corpse for corps ;) 

 

2 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

At least the corpse is one of the deepest in the league.

 

Nothing worse than a shallow grave.

 

I credit John Weisbrod. I’m not sure whether or not he has much of a mind for hockey, but based on his career history, I suspect he’s an expert is knowing how to properly dispose of corpses. ;) 

After that grave mistake, Silky needs a good stiff drink. Either that or retire to the cemetery life.

 

On topic.... I'm just happy that JB managed to get rid of Eriksson! 

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There's always risks in any moves. OEL is a lot of term and a lot of money overall, but if he gets back to 90% of the player that he used to be, we should work out well with him.

 

They do their homework on the guys that they sign, they have a book on every player in the league and what they think their value is on trade and free agency. Yes, sometimes players don't work out or fit as planed, but you do the math and see how it works out.

 

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I liked your take OP, I pretty much agree with all of it.  But EVERY move is dependent on how well each player continues to develop.  NOTHING is Guaranteed, including the guarantee that some people have that players will just blow and produce albatross contracts.  I think this is a season that is least likely to be predicted because many major factors start pessimistic because of a terrible season for continuing canucks players, and OEL coming from a situation he did not like, which gives a greater chance to rebound from these lowered expectations.  The exceptions seem to be Garland, Hughes, Dickinson and Pettersson, who we all seem to be sure will succeed. 

This could happen...
Garland becomes a perrenial 25pt player?
Schmidt becomes a 40+ pt player?
Halak blows and gets us 1-2wins max?
Sutter becomes completely useless?
Schenn becomes a perrenial #8 dman?
OEL continues to degrade and suck?
Poolman is a perrennial #7 dman?
Hamonic is barely a #6 dman?
Juolevi becomes irrelevant and is AHL forever?
Dickinson is a 4C at best?
Hughes drops in production, and stays terrible on D?
Pettersson does not recover from injuries and becomes a 40-60pt player at best?

On the other hand, this could happen...
Garland becomes what he has projected to be, a 60-70pt player?
Schmidt maintains being a 20-30pt player?
Halak does well and plays a solid 25-30 games and wins 15+ games?
Sutter is a great 4C who can even score two goals once in a while?
Schenn is a great bodyguard for Hughes and plays good D?
OEL is empowered by Hughes and forward group and goes 40-50pts a season?
Poolman is a shutdown dman that solidifies our 6man group?
Hamonic is another shutdown dman, which gives us two shutdown defensive pairs?
Juolevi takes the next step and becomes an all-around 20pt defender?
Dickinson is a shutdown 3C beast?
Hughes maintains his crazy point production and builds up decent defensive play?
Petterson recovers well and builds up his ppg+ capability?

NOBODY can predict which of these things happens (or somewhere in between). We just have to see how they do next season, and see how well they gel and integrate their skills together as a team.
But I can say that I like the odds of his moves. If even 75% of his moves work out, we're in really good shape.

Edited by Forsy
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I have nothing but optimism for the new season, the Canucks are on paper the most improved Canadian team. Maybe my favourite acquisition is Schenn, I truly applaud Jim’s removal of dead weight, I still can’t believe we got rid of those 3 . I have heard Poolman is a clone of Tanev but younger and more physical. OEL is the biggest question mark but I’m hoping he finds his game, really if he plays better than Schmidt, I will be happy. I think we make some noise this year.

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4 hours ago, Silky mitts said:

Going into this off-season Jim had loads of work to do. Tons of terrible contracts to shed, and much needed cap space to make for our two young studs. Jim put in a bunch of unprecedented work and managed to clear a lot of cap , and also move his past failures. Overall is the team better this season than last? That is for sure, as I would say our forward corps is now one of the deepest in the league. The d remains relatively weak, especially the right side , but we are hoping Shaw can help tighten up our defensive structure. As mentioned in another thread, we do have the guns to simply out-score our opponents , although I don't know if that is sustainable through multiple playoff rounds if they make it deep.

 

  • The Good: Garland. Garland is a player, I'm a fan of his game and he is a great top 6 piece and also locked in now to a good contract. He will excel with horvat and hoglander. Good job here from jimbo to pluck him from zona.
  • Schmidt deal: Schimdt was unhappy here, and was not a good fit. He was able to move him for a third which makes it a wash, but more importantly no salary retention, which given our still tight situation was key.
  • Halak signing : Good veteran backup on a good amount, good term. 
  • Sutter: Not the biggest fan of Sutter, but at the price he was signed too, it's a good move. Hope he can stay healthy though, something he has struggled with his entire tenure with the team.
  • Schenn: Was a fan of his short stint here, brings truculence and physicality, meshed well with hughes.

 

  • The Bad: OEL: Yes the big controversy of the summer, lots of arguments here on what OEL is as a player these days. In fact how OEL plays is what will be a huge resounding factor for Jim's future going forward.  What he has shown though is not promising off the last couple years and has been a disaster on the ice. That contract is brutal as well. We are banking HARD on him rebounding to form, Could he have been simply just sick of Zona? The situation was not the best there and could take it's toll on anyone. While I don't think he is a top pairing calibre d-man like before, if he can stay consistent at a top 4 level and alleviate minutes from hughes it would be a great benefactor to the team. 
  • Poolman: Replacement level player at best, so the money and term is a bit iffy. Lots of people saying oh its such a small amount blah blah blah, this is the kind of foresight that led to us being so capped out and unable to make the optimal moves for our team the previous years.  Atleast it seems he can be a physical player which is welcome.
  • Hamonic: Too much money again, I like the guy , but it is what it is, RHD are hard to come by these days. Our Right side of D is not looking good at all however. 

 

Overall I would say Jimbo did well for himself this offseason, he managed to turn over lots of the roster and it looks revamped for the most part. Jim has essentially gone all in with his playoff bubble young guns, which in of itself isn't a bad thing. We know Aqua pushes hard for playoffs and is losing patience , he want's his revenue and Jim needs his job. But the key is success needs to be had as in about 2 years we will be very pressed against the cap and may lose some huge core pieces such as a miller, Bo, Brock. 

 

Let's hope it pay off and the canucks do well this season. We all want the same thing don't we? The team to win the damn cup . 

 

 

I think the only thing you missed is Jimbo addressing the size issue with good serviceable NHL'ers and that's worth more than people remember, we won't be steamrolled anymore, plus players we got needed a change of scenery and linemates to get rejuvenated (OEL) and the minor league pick-ups give us depth.. check this out.. DEPTH.. weird hearing myself say that and this team, been watching for so long and how many years lack of it killed us time after time, and for only the 2nd time in franchise history or so  (imho) a bigger team so Petey and co. don't get pushed around like Twins did.. JB did just fine considering.. Nice to see the old guard completely gone and a new team taking shape, that was getting old and painful!

 Anyway size does matter in this case and now we have some, should be fun to watch.. 

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2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I don't hate the moves he made, I rather like them. I hate the timing of them. He's trying to rush us into being a contender within a couple seasons and to be a contender you need prospects to acquire players that put you over the edge or play on the cheap.

 

I give him an A-. 

 

One thing I'm slightly worried about of all things is the play of Garland. I'm ignorant about him, but just based on all of the points he put up last season he's reliant on his teammates. Not a play driver from what I've seen, just a very smart thinker, but he will need a motor to make these plays and I just don't have any idea if he has that (that's the part I'm ignorant about). Without a motor you can end up like a better version of Louie Eriksson (go check out all of the goals that Eriksson put up the year we acquired him and compare it to all of Garland's goals last year, eerily similar). The good news is Garland isn't going to drastically slow down. I just wonder how his game will translate into our system is all. I anticipate a slight dip in production (around 8 points or so) if he isn't a get up and go player so if anybody knows more about the kid if you could please let me know how he is in comparison to say a Hoglander? 

 

With that said, I love the kid's character. I anticipate he will prove me wrong and will end up being one of my favourites this year. He's got great finish and good awareness (things Louie had), it's just a matter of can we get to the front of the net and this team has struggled with that the past couple seasons. I know Garland will go there but will his line mates follow?

 

Either way, he's signed to a fair contract. I was worried he might sign for more when the trade was done because his points alone could have netted him 6 million. I was hoping for 4.5 but his aav is good. 

 

Overall the team is much improved. Our defense is still very questionable and our systems are still stuck with a horrible coach, but with a huge turnover Green may actually play an offensive set up which is what this team badly needs to be successful. We should have more forechecking prowess, and my God Pearson should not be on the 2nd line anymore so this team should be a playoff team (maybe around a 6 seed if I were to guess) with the team anchor now being on a questionable defensive 6, but this team has a lot of range based on that alone for where they end up in the standings. On paper this team should be pretty decent. I wouldn't call it a contender, but it should be able to get in comfortably if they play the way they can. 

 

Jim didn't do horrendously this off-season. He did rather well. I just question the timing of it and hopefully our pro scouts don't let us down with their judgment of OEL and Garland like they have in the past on some players. 

 

I hope the sacrifice is worth it and I can eat crow and watch this team succeed like I know they can. Either way, I'm hyped for this season and I didn't expect I would be aside from seeing Podkolzin join the crew. A weird year to be excited about being a Canucks fan. 

 

Good job, Jimbo. Pretty creative work there. I just hope it doesn't hurt the future but offloading Schmidt helped ease that worry. For once your timing of getting rid of players before they hit their floor on trade value didn't bite you this time! :D

 

I read a lot on Garland after the trade as i was upset we gave up the first and took on a long contract. 

 

AZ fans were pissed, they saw him as their best young player, better than Keller! 

 

Apparently, tons of speed, goes to the hard areas, competes, and is a leader. On the Canucks he will thrive and he has the attitude we need. Suggest just googling on him and you will see, he’s going to really make a difference in our top 6. 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/primetimesportstalk.com/2021/02/05/arizona-coyotes-conor-garland-one-of-the-nhls-most-underrated-talents/amp/

 

 

 

Edited by Podz19
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5 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Pretty good analysis.

 

To be honest, I don’t mind the Hamonic (3 million), Poolman (2.5 million) and Schenn (800K) signings IF they are used correctly.  
 

-Schenn needs to be a 7th dman

-Poolman needs to be our 6th dman

-Hamonic needs to be our 4th dman.

 

Those players, in my opinion, can succeed in the above roles and should be used in the above roles.  IF they can be used in those roles, then I have absolutely no problem with that term and money.

 

My biggest concern is that top pairing with OEL and Myers.  Myers himself is a #4 calibre dman.  Ideally, the guy playing in Myers’ top pairing spot would be a nasty defensive oriented stay at home type guy that could be the “ying to the yang” for the more offensive minded OEL.  Instead, I believe that Benning sees OEL as the “two way guy” that can somehow cover for Myers’ defensive shortcomings but I think OEL may have been miscast here.

 

While I am of the belief that OEL will in fact have a bounce back season this year (high motivation), I’m just not sure if Myers is a good fit on that top pairing with OEL.  Unfortunately, he will have to be, because Hamonic, Poolman, and Schenn shouldn’t be playing up there either.  
 

Put it this way - if Parayko was playing on that top pairing instead of Myers, I think our team would be among the elites.  Maybe in that 2nd tier (similar to our 2008-2010 teams)

 

Poolman will be fine #4 or #5. 18--22 min   -----Like the signing..Hamonic 19--22 mins

Myers 19--23 mins  -----      Hughes -- 23--25 mins ---- OEL - like the signing 20 --23 mins  PP--PK--

Hughes --   --Hamonic       (((Poolman)))---------Poolman and Hamonic will move around--Much better D this year ---

OEL    ---- Myers

Poolman  ---Rathbone--15--18 mins   ((((( Rathbone will be ready for more minutes soon, will be top 4 guy...}}}

Juolevi -12--15 mins-- Schenn 12-15 mins

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1 hour ago, wildcam said:

Poolman will be fine #4 or #5. 18--22 min   -----Like the signing..Hamonic 19--22 mins

Myers 19--23 mins  -----      Hughes -- 23--25 mins ---- OEL - like the signing 20 --23 mins  PP--PK--

Hughes --   --Hamonic       (((Poolman)))---------Poolman and Hamonic will move around--Much better D this year ---

OEL    ---- Myers

Poolman  ---Rathbone--15--18 mins   ((((( Rathbone will be ready for more minutes soon, will be top 4 guy...}}}

Juolevi -12--15 mins-- Schenn 12-15 mins

I am not trying to crap on your opinion

 

But I honestly think there will be a resuffling of the Dmen we have

I think that there will be guys that play on the PP more than others...aka Quinn Hughes

But at even strength, Hughes will get reduced minutes, especially becaue we have OEL who won't get as many PP minutes

but will get more even strength minutes than Quinn

This leads me to Rathbone, and Juolevi, both of whom I believe play better even strength than Hughes

Sooooo.........I feel

 

Hughes will get his 4 minutes a game of PP and about 14 minutes of Even strength.........................................................................17 to 19 minutes a game

OEL will see limited minutes on the PP average about half of Hughes PP minutes but will get more even strength minutes............19 to 21 minutes a game

Rathbone and Juolevi will fight for the scraps.........................

 

The point is Hughes will get less minutes even strength

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1 hour ago, wildcam said:

Poolman will be fine #4 or #5. 18--22 min   -----Like the signing..Hamonic 19--22 mins

Myers 19--23 mins  -----      Hughes -- 23--25 mins ---- OEL - like the signing 20 --23 mins  PP--PK--

Hughes --   --Hamonic       (((Poolman)))---------Poolman and Hamonic will move around--Much better D this year ---

OEL    ---- Myers

Poolman  ---Rathbone--15--18 mins   ((((( Rathbone will be ready for more minutes soon, will be top 4 guy...}}}

Juolevi -12--15 mins-- Schenn 12-15 mins

I love your optimism but I think this something that I'll need to see to believe.  This potential OEL-Myers is giving me nightmares.........like taking a first cousin to the prom type nightmares. Really hope to be proven wrong here.  I have faith and confidence in this management group and have defended them from Day One and so I'm not going to back down now.

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7 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

If you put OEL with Hamonic, Hughes with Poolman, and Myers with Rathbone/Juolevi the blueline starts to look quite a bit better.

 

We don't need to be married to the Hughes-Hamonic pairing.

Good call and interesting... preseason will come up with lots of the answers 

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