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[Discussion] Escalating market price for defencemen (Quinn Hughes)

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grandmaster
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IMO Hughes is below Heiskanen and Makar. There is very little argument for why Hughes should be making the same as those two guys. Hughes and his representation probably know this as well. He got exposed this year. Period. He is still a fantastic offensive player that is likely to improve. But he got exposed. Heiskanen is a clear tier above and is signed for 8.5 x 8 years. Right now, that puts Hughes at 7.5-7.75 x 8 years.

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I am completely perplexed on so many people saying that Hughes can't play D. The best defense, is a good offense. Last season we played a ton of games against 2 of the most offensive juggernauts in the NHL and Hughes often had those matchups. 

Complaints like this is why I wouldn't be surprised if Quinn darted right when he could become a UFA. Why can't we just appreciate that we have a player that (with Makar and Fox) has completely changed the way d-men operate. 

Quinn is one of the best of the league at carrying the puck out of the zone, as well as contributing offensively. I wouldn't care how much we had to pay to keep him, he's so fun to watch

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11 minutes ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

IMO Hughes is below Heiskanen and Makar. There is very little argument for why Hughes should be making the same as those two guys. Hughes and his representation probably know this as well. He got exposed this year. Period. He is still a fantastic offensive player that is likely to improve. But he got exposed. Heiskanen is a clear tier above and is signed for 8.5 x 8 years. Right now, that puts Hughes at 7.5-7.75 x 8 years.

I’d put Fox ahead of Hughes as well.

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28 minutes ago, grandmaster said:

No one is questioning him being a great player. You also can’t be blind to his defensive deficiencies and that fact that he has only played 2 seasons plus 10 games.

 

“Pay him” what? That is the question. You can’t write a blank cheque.
 

8/9M per is a lot of Cap space. That appears to be the low end of these recent signings. I hope that you agree that anything over is way too much.

He's not getting Makar money so not sure why you keep bringing it up...

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Hughes will get less than Makar and Heiskanen.  It's not even a question that should be raised.  He has no leverage so he will sign a short term bridge deal and bet on his future.  3x5.5 is probably where he will land.

 

Petey may be looking at a longer term deal.  It depends if Benning wants to use LTIR money or make another trade to fit him in.  Barry pointed out that Benning may not be done trading yet.  So obviously the discussion with Petey has centered around a longer term deal.

 

At the end of the day Petey will also sign a short term bridge deal.  3x6.5.

 

But hey what do I know, I don't really have any inside sources to be honest...  -_-

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1 hour ago, Alflives said:

Hughes is a phenom.  We are keeping him.  

I would consider trading him to NJD for a very very high price. STARTING off with Holtz + 1st 2022 (unprotected) and 1st 2023 (unprotected). 

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52 minutes ago, bigbadcanucks said:

Whole bunch of ado about nothing^^^^^^.

 

JP Barry is on record to saying that a deal will get done.  He commented that he and his two Canucks clients (Hughes and Pettersson) are well aware of the Canucks cap situation (or more aptly put "issues").  Short term deals for both are what JP Barry is saying. 

 

You can always count on one constant with a certain cluster of Canucks fans - the angst they feel over RFA contracts. 

I think the reason both haven't been signed yet is due to the great work Benning has done to clear cap this season.

With Ferland saying he will never play again aside from rec no-contact,  we have 22 million with the entire roster pretty much set. I think the team also wanted\wants to have the roster pretty much set and then let that dictate what they end up doing.

If Petey is willing to do 7-8 years at a similar hit to point or Cale they would lock that up and if Quinn who buy the way IMO seems like a kid who would sign here long-term at a fair price and not just chase money like the OP thinks. If a deal like  8×8.5 was agreed upon that would be an absolute win for us.

People who bash Quinn for his Dplay and use his plus-minus as an example seem to leave out he was only a minus 1 when paired with Hamonic who is the guy he most likely plays with the most.

Doesn't leave much cap but still leaves enough to sign Dickenson and Joulevi with only Brock to sign next year which likely sees a 1.5 to 2 million raise on his next contract. Beyond that the cap is slated to go up in the 22-23 season and as we've seen there is always a way to gain space, unexpected injuries, young kids make others expendable etc.

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8 minutes ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

I'm not wasting a summer worrying about these F***ing financial ?s

 

If this kid will take a bridge: Great, get that John Henry

& if he won't ? Then the OP is raising a perfectly valid question.

 

Sign EP first, then deal with this.

 

It's bulls*** I don't see TBay having to worry about these bridge deals. Rules for me..but none for THEE?! F*** this.

Unfortunately we will here about this stuff until they are signed. Everything from trading them, how good they really are, taking picks on offer sheets, if so and so is so greedy, why haven’t they signed yet, cap, agent said, blah blah blah and so on 

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2 hours ago, Alflives said:

Hughes is a phenom.  We are keeping him.  Remember he’s the Guy who holds the record for most points by a rookie d in the playoffs.  He also had more points as a rookie d than Makar.  Plus he’s more than a full year younger.  We’ve never had a D man  this good.  He’s going to be leading the Cup parade!  

Very convincing Alf, I hope he learns how to play defence

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1 hour ago, I.Am.Ironman said:

IMO Hughes is below Heiskanen and Makar. There is very little argument for why Hughes should be making the same as those two guys. Hughes and his representation probably know this as well. He got exposed this year. Period. He is still a fantastic offensive player that is likely to improve. But he got exposed. Heiskanen is a clear tier above and is signed for 8.5 x 8 years. Right now, that puts Hughes at 7.5-7.75 x 8 years.

 I have a sneaking suspicion that he only wants 5 years tops. The draft day interview with his brothers, I kind of got the feeling from things all 3 were saying that they’d like to play together and New Jersey is the place that makes it easiest to happen. 
 I was perusing the defenseman salaries today in the nhl. There’s 13 that make at least 8. 26 that make at least 6.5, And 34 that make 6 or more. 
 I feel that Quinn will make 6-7 on 2-3 years if he gives Vancouver a discount. I hope I’m wrong but I don’t see him making any less than 6. 

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3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Of the top ten paid Ds in the league, 3 got those deals as RFAs, and all three got long term deals (well Makar not as long), Chabot, Makar and Heiskanen.  Also Sakic did a total Dubas.   

I wouldn't say he did a Dubas, tbh I think Makar is better then any player on Toronto including Matthew's so considering he is paid less then all their big 3 I'd say it's way better. (Makar is worth what point got I think as a comparable. I know point is a forward but I think overall value can be said to be similar) 

Yes I know point was locked up for longer, but still this is no Matthew's at what again? 11 million for 5 years lmao 

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If the market price for D is too high what are we gonna trade him for? If we trade him for a D comparable in skill and age, are they not gonna ask for the same price anyway? Meaning we traded a known quantity for an unknown quantity of the same price? We can't trade him for a forward, cause he is by far our most talented D-man. One we have never had in our franchise's history. He's too good to trade for nothing less than a top end D man. And again. By your logic the market is high for them anyway so we'd just be in the same situation.

 

Just keep him, pay the money, move on. I say, offer him 8mil per on a 8 year deal. Similar to Chabot. Fingers crossed he takes it.

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Honestly signing a bridge deal would probably be in Hughs best interest after getting OEL.

 

OEL will probably take the majority of the harder match ups and free up time and space for Hughs to operate, thus he keeps improving his game, and accumulating points.

 

But same can be said in a contract negotiation after the bridge deal ends that he was sheltered etc.

 

 

 

 

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I think Barrie and Brodie are more comparable contracts for Hughes. 4-5M. He doesn't deserve anything over 5.5M IMO because he's one of the worst defensively in the league, shocking +/- and doesn't kill penalties, so basically doesn't do the important half job of being a defenceman, therefore he gets paid half of what those big guys do.

 

Werenski and Hamilton put up numbers similar to Hughes if not better, they log big minutes on a top pairing, shutdown opposing team's top lines and kill penalties. Hughes does only one of those things - puts up assists. To be fair he doesn't even score the goals that some of those guys do.

 

For me he deserves 5M x 3 years and go from there but I think we've just got a rich man's Barrie/Brodie on our hands at best.

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1 hour ago, N7Nucks said:

If the market price for D is too high what are we gonna trade him for? If we trade him for a D comparable in skill and age, are they not gonna ask for the same price anyway? Meaning we traded a known quantity for an unknown quantity of the same price? We can't trade him for a forward, cause he is by far our most talented D-man. One we have never had in our franchise's history. He's too good to trade for nothing less than a top end D man. And again. By your logic the market is high for them anyway so we'd just be in the same situation.

 

Just keep him, pay the money, move on. I say, offer him 8mil per on a 8 year deal. Similar to Chabot. Fingers crossed he takes it.

You never read my post. I stated top 4D man and a pick or top end defenceman prospect. I never said straight up for another number one and if that was the case, not all the number ones in every team are paid out 8-9M per year. 
 

I think 8-9M is too much for Hughes. Hopefully his camp doesn’t draw that line in the sand.

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Quinn is exciting 5 on 4, during our PP

 

Defensively, he is a train wreck, that can not maintain position against larger opponents

 

His 2nd contract should be around 5.5 for 3 years

 

That gives him 3 years to develop his defense, so that he can have a big contract.

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7 hours ago, cdgraham said:

I wouldn't say he did a Dubas, tbh I think Makar is better then any player on Toronto including Matthew's so considering he is paid less then all their big 3 I'd say it's way better. (Makar is worth what point got I think as a comparable. I know point is a forward but I think overall value can be said to be similar) 

Yes I know point was locked up for longer, but still this is no Matthew's at what again? 11 million for 5 years lmao 

Makar is an RFA and now the third highest paid D in the league.   Go back and look at multiple cup winner, and multiple Norris finalist, and finally winner Doughty was making (not the third most in the league) during his RFA, but an even better comp - EK during his RFA years.      Won two, and should have won three, plus a finalist.   Both these guys didn't have a Mckinnon powered offense too rack up points either, especially EK.   Yes he was a finalist in a short year.   9 x 6 though? Buys barely a UFA year so yes I think it's a bad deal.     Rantanen at 9.5 is also way too much for a second deal.   Just like Marners is.  So yes i do think Sakic has some Dubas in him.   Dubas has publicly stated he made a mistake with his RFAs.    This is supposed to be flat cap for four or five more seasons.  

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5 hours ago, janisahockeynut said:

Quinn is exciting 5 on 4, during our PP

 

Defensively, he is a train wreck, that can not maintain position against larger opponents

 

His 2nd contract should be around 5.5 for 3 years

 

That gives him 3 years to develop his defense, so that he can have a big contract.

That's exactly what i think too. 

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