[Discussion] Escalating market price for defencemen (Quinn Hughes)

[Phat Fingers]

The Makar deal with a maybe a million less, Hughes and Petey could both sign for 8.5 and not cripple the team from being able to build.  The deals mentioned have a lot more to due with FA status and such than Makar or Hughes.  
 

plus Seth Jones can eat minutes and take assignments that neither Maker or Hughes could and still provide offence.  
 

 It everything is based on points and Hughes does have weaknesses defensively that he needs to have the right assignments and partner to be successful.  
 

he is the glitter, he needs glue.  Lol.  I am buzzed.  

[appleboy]

I don't think it is that Hughes is bad defensively.  I think the teams overall defensive structure was a mess.

 

If you put Hughes on a team that controls the puck he will soon be looked at as a generational talent. A 170 lb defenseman needs to control the puck. Not be chasing and fighting along the boards for it.

TEAM defense has been the Canucks issue for years now.

[Nucker 67]

Too bad salary isn't based on +/-

 

Quinn would be paid at the league minimum

 

 

[IBatch]

On 8/3/2021 at 2:07 PM, Topcheeze86 said:

Hes a generational talent him and makar will be battling for top defensive points for the next 10 years BUT i do feel when he becomes a UFA years from now he will bolt to the USA or find a way to be a devil 

No he is not.   Ovi, Crosby, McDavid are generational talents.   EK was barely considered  a "generational talent", and he's one of four D's to ever be top ten in scoring 3 times.    Man.   Yes he's good, and he's he had lots of potential.   So did Ghost, so did Barrie.   We have to be realistic.    Makar is on a loaded team.   Wonder how he'd have done on ARI instead of OEL.   EK was never on a loaded team...look what he did.    I'm glad we have a PMD, but he doesn't score goals and he doesn't kill penalties.   For sure he's got things going for him like his age and his potential.    Bridge contracts are made for guys like this.    

[nux_win]

8 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Too bad salary isn't based on +/-

 

Quinn would be paid at the league minimum

 

 

It should at least be one of the many factors that goes into it.  It is at least a valid reason not to pay him 9 mil per season as some other guys are being paid.  I also hope they don't base his pay entirely on other over-inflated salaries that are being handed out.  If we want to win a cup, and I hope everyone involved wants to, we can't overspend on any one player.  Everyone has to buy in as a group even at the negotiating table.  GCG!

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, appleboy said:

I don't think it is that Hughes is bad defensively.  I think the teams overall defensive structure was a mess.

 

If you put Hughes on a team that controls the puck he will soon be looked at as a generational talent. A 170 lb defenseman needs to control the puck. Not be chasing and fighting along the boards for it.

TEAM defense has been the Canucks issue for years now.

Any team would be happy to have QHs running their PP, and have him in general ... last core we waited for a long time for Burrows to come along, we can wait a few years for QHs right partner too.  Fighting along the boards is always part of any hockey team and part of the game.   It's also a big part of defence isn't it? 

 

 

   

[appleboy]

13 hours ago, IBatch said:

Any team would be happy to have QHs running their PP, and have him in general ... last core we waited for a long time for Burrows to come along, we can wait a few years for QHs right partner too.  Fighting along the boards is always part of any hockey team and part of the game.   It's also a big part of defence isn't it? 

 

 

   

Quin is never going to win a high percentage of battles along the boards against 200 lb forwards. His game is based on his exceptional mobility and quickness. Every player needs to play to their strengths. Some of the responsibility for allowing that to happen falls on the coaching staff. The Canucks team defensive structure for the last few years has been a chip and chase game. They need to play more of a puck possession game. ( I think) 

This team seems to be always chasing the puck and getting hemmed into their own zone. Then our defense gets pounded and that is not Hughes or Rathbones game. The coaching staff has two very skilled and very mobile young defensemen to build a system around. They have added a few forwards that I think will play a better two way game. ( Garland and Podkolzin both play a 200 foot game. Hoglander is a cut from the same cloth) These guys are also skilled and can carry the puck rather than just shoot it in. They also have the quickness to retrieve it if shot in. 

 

I am not suggesting that their should never be board battles. Quin will get stronger a be able to handle it better. Just saying that the more the Canucks control the puck the more they use Quin's and Jacks strengths.

Edited August 10, 2021 by appleboy

[Deets]

15 hours ago, IBatch said:

No he is not.   Ovi, Crosby, McDavid are generational talents.   EK was barely considered  a "generational talent", and he's one of four D's to ever be top ten in scoring 3 times.    Man.   Yes he's good, and he's he had lots of potential.   So did Ghost, so did Barrie.   We have to be realistic.    Makar is on a loaded team.   Wonder how he'd have done on ARI instead of OEL.   EK was never on a loaded team...look what he did.    I'm glad we have a PMD, but he doesn't score goals and he doesn't kill penalties.   For sure he's got things going for him like his age and his potential.    Bridge contracts are made for guys like this.    

It seems like a lot of Canuck fans have a short memory. Did you not watch Hughes' rookie season? The kid was beating records left and right, all to be squashed by COVID. This past season was just a horrible series of events for the entire Canuck team, I expect Hughes to grow from all this adversity and return to form in a normal season. While I'm not willing to call Hughes a generational talent yet, he's the damn closest thing we've ever had on the back end. Hughes did in his rookie season what Ghost and Barrie are doing in their prime.

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/how-many-records-was-quinn-hughes-going-to-break-this-season-2196994

[BPA]

I feel too many people are throwing out the term generational like it was candy.  To me it is someone who can dominate the game (Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Ovi, McDavid).  I just don't see that in EP and QH. 

 

However, they are what I would consider Franchise players (#1C and #1D) that teams can build a team around.

 

I think EP is around Aho level so about $8.5-9M long term.  QH is a bit harder to gauge.  Fantastic offensively but a bit weak defensively.  So probably a bridge around $6.5-7 x 3-4yr.

Edited August 10, 2021 by BPA

[IBatch]

57 minutes ago, Deets said:

It seems like a lot of Canuck fans have a short memory. Did you not watch Hughes' rookie season? The kid was beating records left and right, all to be squashed by COVID. This past season was just a horrible series of events for the entire Canuck team, I expect Hughes to grow from all this adversity and return to form in a normal season. While I'm not willing to call Hughes a generational talent yet, he's the damn closest thing we've ever had on the back end. Hughes did in his rookie season what Ghost and Barrie are doing in their prime.

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/how-many-records-was-quinn-hughes-going-to-break-this-season-2196994

Yes i remember.  I've also watched Jovo, Reinhart, Lumme, Lidster etc...for sure QHs will get better, but has a ways to go yet before i'd crown him the best D we've ever had.   For sure he should end up smashing some more records along the way. 

[appleboy]

I think fans need to stop thinking of Hughes as that number one defenseman that teams all want. A number one is always a great all round . That is not Quin. 

 

Think Paul Coffee . Forget his plus/minus and put him into a position where he can control the game and rack up a ton of points.

 

I think Rathbone has a better all round skill set.

Edited August 10, 2021 by appleboy

[McBackup]

On 8/9/2021 at 5:17 AM, appleboy said:

I don't think it is that Hughes is bad defensively.  I think the teams overall defensive structure was a mess.

 

Yes. Is he a defensive stalwart? No. But he isn't the worst defensive D-man in the game like people are making him out to be. He wasn't horrible defensively his rookie year. He is young and still developing, and its amazing to me how many people are willing to throw him (and Pettersson) to the wolves after the disaster that was last season and now that we need to pay them. 

[Deets]

1 minute ago, IBatch said:

Yes i remember.  I've also watched Jovo, Reinhart, Lumme, Lidster etc...for sure QHs will get better, but has a ways to go yet before i'd crown him the best D we've ever had.   For sure he should end up smashing some more records along the way. 

Yes, I've also watched those players and Quinn's rookie year rivals their best years, especially when you factor in the modern era. Top line minutes, PPG playoff run, 14th all time rookie points, even in a shortened season, best rookie point per game production in 40 years. Come on man.

 

Hughes is the best we've ever had. Covid and Benning sabotaged his season this year. I fully expect his game to take off this upcoming season.

[Maddogy]

8 minutes ago, appleboy said:

I think fans need to stop thinking of Hughes as that number one defenseman that teams all want. A number one is always a great all round . That is not Quin. 

 

Think Paul Coffee . Forget his plus/minus and put him into a position where he can control the game and rack up a ton of points.

 

I think Rathbone has a better all round skill set.

It is a matter of semantics of course. Brian Leetch was considered a number 1 even though his D zone play was less than reliable. 

 

 

[appleboy]

3 minutes ago, Maddogy said:

It is a matter of semantics of course. Brian Leetch was considered a number 1 even though his D zone play was less than reliable. 

 

 

It will depend on the team around him. The more this team can control the puck the better Quin's defensive numbers will look. The more Quin has the puck the better his offensive numbers will be.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, appleboy said:

I think fans need to stop thinking of Hughes as that number one defenseman that teams all want. A number one is always a great all round . That is not Quin. 

 

Think Paul Coffee . Forget his plus/minus and put him into a position where he can control the game and rack up a ton of points.

 

I think Rathbone has a better all round skill set.

When i think of Paul Coffey that's all i think about.   Guy was incredible.  48 goals.  If you take a snapshot of his and Orr's careers up until Orr was done, they aren't much different really.   He also has more Gordie Howe hat tricks then any defenseman, like Orr he was no slouch when the gloves came off either (which he did more then pretty much anyone in the league today on a year to year basis during his "Orr years").   Bad comp.   QHs doesn't have a great shot.   And he doesn't skate like Coffey, nobody did, only player that could accelerate while gliding.   A lot.  Or at least that's how it seemed.   Time will tell if he's the next Phil Housley, but even then we need to see a shot improvement.   To me the best i see, and this is not at all bad - in fact HHOF stuff - is a guy like Brian Campbell, who can score at close to a PGP pace.   70-80 points while also being defensively responsible, and enough skill to control the pace of the game.   I'd say Duncan Keith too but he's a total douche bag.    I doubt he will ever break goal records for us.  And that's ok.    What i do see is a guy who will be in the top 1-10 in D scoring for a very long time...and we haven't ever had that have we? 

Edited August 10, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Maddogy said:

It is a matter of semantics of course. Brian Leetch was considered a number 1 even though his D zone play was less than reliable. 

 

 

By whom?  Like Edler, his plus minus went up and down depending on how well his team did.    Is Edler considered less then reliable because we sucked one year and he led the league in minus? Leetch to me wasn't much different then EK was in his prime.     I sure hope he's like Leetch. 

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Deets said:

Yes, I've also watched those players and Quinn's rookie year rivals their best years, especially when you factor in the modern era. Top line minutes, PPG playoff run, 14th all time rookie points, even in a shortened season, best rookie point per game production in 40 years. Come on man.

 

Hughes is the best we've ever had. Covid and Benning sabotaged his season this year. I fully expect his game to take off this upcoming season.

Wow.   Ok.   When QHs starts killing penalties, then i would start considering him better then Reinhart was.  Rivals i guess doesn't mean better.   Aucion had a great year once too and that was during the suck era.  Jovo ... he had a couple doozies too.   Lumme, how can anyone forget his PK lob ... or that he's half a foot taller and played in a much tougher era.   QHs ... he's good but he's not great yet.    Also the modern era is considered anything past expansion.   QHs in the early 90's or even when the Sedins started, sorry i just can't see him excelling as a defenseman.   As far as today's game goes yes, that's why he's playing D and isn't a forward. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by IBatch

[cripplereh]

On 7/30/2021 at 6:45 PM, Jimmy McGill said:

yup. He's a 10.2.c. If he wants to earn anything next year he signs something reasonable. 

exactly no more then 6 a year for 4 years

[IBatch]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:57 PM, thrago said:

Rick and Donnie asked JP Berry there agent if Seth Jones was a comparable for Hughes and he said no as that was Seth's 3rd contract and not his second.

Can we post this on top of every single QHs/EP contract thread page please.   This is something that i still think quite a few CDCers don't understand.   They haven't done anything yet.   Haven't won a cup.   Haven't played and 82 game regular season.   We can't pay them for what they haven't done yet.   And it's their second contract.   Having a down covid year .... well it for sure affected their deals.   And it should.