[Discussion] Escalating market price for defencemen (Quinn Hughes)

[Deets]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Wow.   Ok.   When QHs starts killing penalties, then i would start considering him better then Reinhart was.  Rivals i guess doesn't mean better.   Aucion had a great year once too and that was during the suck era.  Jovo ... he had a couple doozies too.   Lumme, how can anyone forget his PK lob ... or that he's half a foot taller and played in a much tougher era.   QHs ... he's good but he's not great yet.  

When in the world did Paul Reinhart kill penalties? I remember him moving up and playing center for a bit, but killing penalties? I guess I was pretty young back then, but I'm seriously questioning that TBH. That's not to take away from a good ol BC boy, I just don't seem to remember his game beyond his offense.

 

The truth is none of those defencemen you mentioned were as dynamic or had the vision that Quinn does. If you want to disqualify him because he's a foot shorter or doesn't kill penalties, so be it, but I think a lot of people would agree that we've never had a defenceman with the skill of Hughes ever.

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, Deets said:

When in the world did Paul Reinhart kill penalties? I remember him moving up and playing center for a bit, but killing penalties? I guess I was pretty young back then, but I'm seriously questioning that TBH. That's not to take away from a good ol BC boy, I just don't seem to remember his game beyond his offense.

 

The truth is none of those defencemen you mentioned were as dynamic or had the vision that Quinn does. If you want to disqualify him because he's a foot shorter or doesn't kill penalties, so be it, but I think a lot of people would agree that we've never had a defenceman with the skill of Hughes ever.

Reinhardt is sixth all-time in PGP during the regular season, and 4th all-time in playoffs.    If injuries didn't shorten his career he'd be in the HHOF.   Also although he never won a Norris, so far he's got QHs beat in that catagory too.   I think if you remember Reinhardt (and not just as a Canuck) you'd wouldn't be saying this.   I never said he killed penalties.  What i said was if QHs killed penalties too then it would give him a much better case.   One shortened season isn't enough to crown QHs the king is it? 

Edited August 10, 2021 by IBatch

[Deets]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Reinhardt is sixth all-time in PGP during the regular season, and 4th all-time in playoffs.    If injuries didn't shorten his career he'd be in the HHOF.   Also although he never won a Norris, so far he's got QHs beat in that catagory too.   I think if you remember Reinhardt (and not just as a Canuck) you'd wouldn't be saying this.   I never said he killed penalties - but i'm sure he did.   What i said was if QHs killed penalties too then it would give him a much better case.   One shortened season isn't enough to crown QHs the king is it? 

I mean, the guy retired in his prime so points per game would be a bit skewed, but yes he was a great player. The game has also changed a lot since his reign.

 

I still think that Canuck fans are not giving Quinn the respect he deserves due to a less than stellar year which he still put up .75 ppg. If you think Hughes is just another decent defenceman I doubt I can convince you otherwise. My eye test disagrees with you. Quinn is something special.

 

 

[IBatch]

16 minutes ago, Deets said:

I mean, the guy retired in his prime so points per game would be a bit skewed, but yes he was a great player. The game has also changed a lot since his reign.

 

I still think that Canuck fans are not giving Quinn the respect he deserves due to a less than stellar year which he still put up .75 ppg. If you think Hughes is just another decent defenceman I doubt I can convince you otherwise. My eye test disagrees with you. Quinn is something special.

 

 

Never said that.  Ever.   What i have been saying is he's still unproven on the other side of the puck,  and we can't crown him the best ever yet either.    Actually i don't think he's a great defenseman yet because that's a huge part of it (the other side of the puck).   He's an incredible PMD, PP specialist and ok at 5 x 5.   Take him off the PP and what exactly do we have?   Think about it for a minute.  We've actually had a lot of D's score 45-50 points in this league.   Lumme was a top PK, 5 x 5 and PP guy but still, like Edler a level down.   Last year QHs was completely insulated by Edler and Schmidt's line and even Myers to a degree.    The eye test and the stats back it up.  Of course he's very young and should get a lot better - we are all banking on that.   But so far he's a PP specialist and not much more (and man the moaning about that last year).   Tanev isn't around.    For sure he's got a lot potential.   Leetch won a Norris his 4th year maybe he will too.   Maybe not. We have to be reasonable and honest about QHs.   Not trying to slam him.   But it is what it is.   He didn't face the top competition.   Edler and Schmidt did.  TG won't let him kill penalties (yet maybe he's great at it who knows).   The sample size is very small.    So no i don't think he's the best we've ever had.   Not yet anyways. 

 

Edit:  As an aside.  Not too long ago we had almost a league leading 5 x 5 D scorer...any guess to who it was.   Kevin Bieksa.   Not saying he's better either...but for sure it matters who's getting the 1st PP time.   Ovi made a career out of it. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by IBatch

[vancan2233]

On 7/30/2021 at 8:10 PM, Sbriggs said:

Very convincing Alf, I hope he learns how to play defence

What part of defense? It is really funny reading all these posters claiming he does not know how to play defense. The only part of his defensive game lacking is strength to move players off the puck. He has a good poke check and active stick to block passes. Most his trouble defending comes from poor overall team decisions. If you watched closely most of Hughes problems were the results of stupid passes that got him trapped in the corners where he had no time to skate out of trouble(he lacked strength to win puck battle). 

[vancan2233]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Yes i remember.  I've also watched Jovo, Reinhart, Lumme, Lidster etc...for sure QHs will get better, but has a ways to go yet before i'd crown him the best D we've ever had.   For sure he should end up smashing some more records along the way. 

Why do you keep posting "best D man we every had" no one has posted that. What has been posted is " never had a D man with the skills like Hughes". 

[Rick_theRyper]

Canucks should have gone all in on Larson instead of swapping the poop deck for the sticky cheese man with Arizona. Then Hughes would have his partner for the next six years or whatever. Wouldn’t have Garland but wouldn’t have another Anchor of a contract in four years. Which yeah we can buy out but I think I’d rather lock Larson up for six years 

[vancan2233]

10 minutes ago, Rick_theRyper said:

Canucks should have gone all in on Larson instead of swapping the poop deck for the sticky cheese man with Arizona. Then Hughes would have his partner for the next six years or whatever. Wouldn’t have Garland but wouldn’t have another Anchor of a contract in four years. Which yeah we can buy out but I think I’d rather lock Larson up for six years 

Classy post. 

[4petesake]

12 minutes ago, Rick_theRyper said:

Canucks should have gone all in on Larson instead of swapping the poop deck for the sticky cheese man with Arizona. Then Hughes would have his partner for the next six years or whatever. Wouldn’t have Garland but wouldn’t have another Anchor of a contract in four years. Which yeah we can buy out but I think I’d rather lock Larson up for six years 

Unfortunately Larsson wasn’t an option. He signed in Seattle during their pre- expansion draft window when only they could negotiate with UFAs. Larsson never waited for free agency to open so neither the Canucks nor anyone else who were interested in him ever had a chance.

[KirkSave]

I'm thinking that a full training camp and exhibition games will really help QH and TH get some good chemistry going. I think their games will really complement one another should Green decide to pair them. As far as the money goes, he should come in at most around 7 per season and at minimum 5 per season. 

[IBatch]

9 hours ago, vancan2233 said:

Why do you keep posting "best D man we every had" no one has posted that. What has been posted is " never had a D man with the skills like Hughes". 

Reinhardt.   So yes we have.  6 all-time in PGP in the regular season,  and amped it up in the playoffs - 4 all-time there.   Then we got into some sort of disagreement.   Also isn't blocking shots, board work, hitting and even size/intimidation a skill as well?   That's my point.   Reinhardt was broken and almost close to retirement while here, but still an incredible talent.   Not much taller but jacked enough at 200lbs.   Jovo had a couple number one seasons for us in the dead puck era that can't be ignored either.   Lanz, McCarthy, Lidster, Lumme... 

 

QHs is awesome and has the potential to be the best we've ever had too.  Skill wise ok sure i will say he's pretty close to Reinhardt.  Like i said sample size isn't big enough yet.   Different era, but Reinhardt never disappointed in his either.   When he gets to 600 games then we can re-visit this. 

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Rick_theRyper said:

Canucks should have gone all in on Larson instead of swapping the poop deck for the sticky cheese man with Arizona. Then Hughes would have his partner for the next six years or whatever. Wouldn’t have Garland but wouldn’t have another Anchor of a contract in four years. Which yeah we can buy out but I think I’d rather lock Larson up for six years 

Sure.  Doesn't he get to pick and choose?  Any posts regarding any UFAs is pointless.   I'm sure JB kicked tires on a lot of other guys over the years to see if they wanted to come...what we get in that avenue, is who likes the idea and who likes the contract.   Most of the time, they go do the money on their first deal.   Just like whining about "    " blank name who went here or there.    You can bet this was the road that worked best for the club given the circumstances.   I'm willing to reserve judgement for at least a year are you? 

[Rick_theRyper]

11 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sure.  Doesn't he get to pick and choose?  Any posts regarding any UFAs is pointless.   I'm sure JB kicked tires on a lot of other guys over the years to see if they wanted to come...what we get in that avenue, is who likes the idea and who likes the contract.   Most of the time, they go do the money on their first deal.   Just like whining about "    " blank name who went here or there.    You can bet this was the road that worked best for the club given the circumstances.   I'm willing to reserve judgement for at least a year are you? 

I really doubt the Kraken were on the top of his list and a deal could have been made

[appleboy]

12 hours ago, 4petesake said:

Unfortunately Larsson wasn’t an option. He signed in Seattle during their pre- expansion draft window when only they could negotiate with UFAs. Larsson never waited for free agency to open so neither the Canucks nor anyone else who were interested in him ever had a chance.

Plus  a Larsson signing would not have cleared 12 mil in cap space. 

A big part of Jim's hard on for OEL was about clearing cap space. He focused on that deal two off seasons in a row. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by appleboy

[Jester13]

Sooooo, Barrie had a better PPG than Hughes last year, yet signs for close to half of what Quinn is apparently asking for. Granted, Barrie was with those two guys, but Quinn wasn't playing with chopped liver. 

 

Just a little perspective for what other, similarly defensively, PMDs are getting. 

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Sooooo, Barrie had a better PPG than Hughes last year, yet signs for close to half of what Quinn is apparently asking for. Granted, Barrie was with those two guys, but Quinn wasn't playing with chopped liver. 

 

Just a little perspective for what other, similarly defensively, PMDs are getting. 

 No doubt ... and he's a UFA.  Seems to me a bridge at 5-6 is a fair one.   Werenksi, McAvoy, Sergachev, Chychrun...he'd be getting a fair bit more then these guys right? 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Rick_theRyper said:

I really doubt the Kraken were on the top of his list and a deal could have been made

Kraken no state taxes .... 34.6% instead of 53%....17.4% more take home cash...just like Vegas, Miami, TB - you can bet hockey players will enjoy playing there.  

[Biff Tannen]

8 hours ago, Rick_theRyper said:

I really doubt the Kraken were on the top of his list and a deal could have been made

Given that he signed with them before even waiting to see if or what the other 30 teams would offer it kinda suggests they were towards the top of his list tbh. I'm genuinely intrigued as to how you would have made the deal you're so sure of prior to free agency even opening.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Biff Tannen

[Rick_theRyper]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Given that he signed with them before even waiting to see if or what the other 30 teams would offer it kinda suggests they were towards the top of his list tbh. I'm genuinely intrigued as to how you would have made the deal you're so sure of prior to free agency even opening.

The finest women and whiskey. Sir that’s how. A simple phone call off the record and bam. Done deal.

[Rick_theRyper]

8 hours ago, IBatch said:

Kraken no state taxes .... 34.6% instead of 53%....17.4% more take home cash...just like Vegas, Miami, TB - you can bet hockey players will enjoy playing there.  

So take what he signed for and add 17% and we couldn’t offer that? If OEL was here? Because that’s what I was insinuating