Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

[Report] 17 players elect salary arbitration


Recommended Posts

On 8/1/2021 at 8:22 PM, Petey_BOI said:

yeah, stats don't lie. and no offense, but news article's are very likely to be misleading. like my stats show, when BO and pearson are on the ice together they play better, and if they play better than the other forwards at "shutting down" elite talent there was nothing wrong with playing them there.

 

when you consider that games are won 5vs5 you should put your 2 best performing forwards against other teams top lines.

 

horvat and pearson out performed 

boeser and miller

sutter and virtanen

motte and beagle

motte and sutter

 

thats why they play together so much for us 5 on 5. the only other person on our team that can play well against top players last year is EP40.

 

if dickinson can take some defensive time away from bo by creating offensive draws and taking defensive draws thats great. but Bo will continue to lead our team vs elite players because he does a good job of it. (the second best compared to ep40) Pearson will continue to play with bo I guarntee it and hoglander will be moved to the third line to play with dickinson and podkolzin.

 

JT EP40 BB

TP BH CG

NH JD VP

TM BS ??

 

OEL TM

QH TH
JR TP

 

wallstreetamigo is proven to not care about evidence that contradicts his points. Just a fair warning.

 

It's the only reason he has me on ignore because he lost his arguments about the media not being biased. ;)

  • Cheers 2
  • Vintage 1
  • RoughGame 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/1/2021 at 7:12 PM, wallstreetamigo said:

 

The only reason the myth is out there thst Horvat needs Pearson is because Benning needs to justify overpaying him on what most industry experts said should have been around 2.5 million tops. Horvat needs better wingers than Pearson and so does our top 6. Garland and Hoglander should be with Bo.

The market has spoken...

 

 

 

Same age.

Same position.

Same height.

Both good 2 way players.

Both cup Champs.

 

Over the last 2 seasons...

Pearson 63 points (.525ppg)

Saad 57 points (.558ppg)

 

Pearson 3.25mil over 3 years

Saad 4.5mil over 5 years

 

666.png

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/9/2021 at 1:36 PM, coryberg said:

The market has spoken...

 

 

 

Same age.

Same position.

Same height.

Both good 2 way players.

Both cup Champs.

 

Over the last 2 seasons...

Pearson 63 points (.525ppg)

Saad 57 points (.558ppg)

 

Pearson 3.25mil over 3 years

Saad 4.5mil over 5 years

 

666.png

So, why the arbitrary 2 year time frame to compare them? Dont worry, I know why.

 

You are missing out on a lot of context with your comparison. 

 

Saad's deal was signed with a new team after hitting UFA status. The Avs didnt re-sign him to an overpayment, a new team competing with others did. Pearson was re-signed before there was any competition for his services. Typically that should be a pretty big advantage for the team for a guy in the middle of his worst season.

 

Last year, Pearson produced significantly less than Saad (who was on the Avs 3rd line and 2nd PP unit) in 7 more games with about 3 minutes more ice time per game permanently in the top 6 and on the top PP unit half the year with Petterssen out. 

 

The past 3 years Saad is a combined -6. Pearson is a combined -25. I amnot a fan of plus minus as a defensive stat but it does show one is out for a lot more goals against than goals for. Saad has been pretty consistent point wise over his career too. Pearson has been bad year, good year, bad year the last 3. And even in his good year, 20% of Pearson's points (9 of 45) came with an empty net.

 

Pearson is a 3rd line quality player if on a decent team. I expect he will still be aGreen go to top 6 guy this upcoming season, mostly because of themyth that Horvat needs him to be successful. Horvat is entirely self made. He plays just as well no matter who he is with. Thats not true for Pearson though.

 

If the Canucks want to be an actual contender there is no place in their top 6 for Pearson. He just isnt consistent enough at either end of the ice nor dynamic enough to make a difference. On a 3rd line he would be a net positive. 3.25 mil for 3 years for a 3rd linewinger that really doesnt move the needle is too much. Look at all the cup winning vets signed to peanuts deals. What Pearson brings could have beenreplaced by any of themat a third of the cap hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

So, why the arbitrary 2 year time frame to compare them? Dont worry, I know why.

 

You are missing out on a lot of context with your comparison. 

Speaking of context, let's break this down further.

 

31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Saad's deal was signed with a new team after hitting UFA status. The Avs didnt re-sign him to an overpayment, a new team competing with others did. Pearson was re-signed before there was any competition for his services. Typically that should be a pretty big advantage for the team for a guy in the middle of his worst season.

UFA status. If Saad got this deal on the market and they are comparables, don't you think Pearson probably could've gotten something similar if he hit the market and therefore the deal he signed with us is considered a "discount"? Or at the very least, if Saad is considered a UFA inflated signing, then once again Pearson is at fair market value.

 

31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Last year, Pearson produced significantly less than Saad (who was on the Avs 3rd line and 2nd PP unit) in 7 more games with about 3 minutes more ice time per game permanently in the top 6 and on the top PP unit half the year with Petterssen out. 

Offensive numbers. The key here is Pettersson was out. When a team is missing their best offensive forward, it creates a ripple effect. Those 3 extra minutes per ice time a game were slightly boosted by the PP time, but also the fact that he PKed and Saad didn't last season. It's nice to be on PP1, but without the biggest threat in Pettersson, it makes it less effective. No one expected Pearson to take over Pettersson's value on the PP. With that said, his minutes also increased a bit because Miller would then have to shift to center leaving more LW time to fill.

 

As for point production, yes Saad has more point last year, but he also had an unusually high shot% compared to his career. Bring that back down to the norm and suddenly it's not as "significant" of a difference. We will see if Saad can keep it up, but it is unlikely IMO. On the other hand, Pearson had one of his worst shot%, so it'll remain to see if he returns back to norm with hopefully a healthy group above him.

 

31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The past 3 years Saad is a combined -6. Pearson is a combined -25. I amnot a fan of plus minus as a defensive stat but it does show one is out for a lot more goals against than goals for. Saad has been pretty consistent point wise over his career too. Pearson has been bad year, good year, bad year the last 3. And even in his good year, 20% of Pearson's points (9 of 45) came with an empty net.

Defensive play. Pearson paired with Horvat was relied upon to play somewhat of a shutdown role. Saad, given that he had next to no PK time, likely wasn't trusted as much in a defensive role. So perhaps that plays a part into the differences in +/- when you aren't relied to face the tougher competition. This is something that would have to be looked at more with the fancy stats.

 

You bring up the empty net stats and well that's another point towards his defensive game. Who's relied upon late in a game protecting a lead (and thus the empty net availability) having the top opposition bear down on you trying to tie up the game? Empty net points are simply a reward of getting the job done and burying the game.

 

Physical play. I'll add this here since it's been overlooked. Pearson throws over a hit per game (or around 5 hits/60 minutes) and has been willing to get in fights if needed. Saad barely hits (about 2/60 mins) and I don't believe he's ever gotten into a fight. So while Pearson is no enforcer, he's willing to engage in the physical game.

 

31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Pearson is a 3rd line quality player if on a decent team. I expect he will still be aGreen go to top 6 guy this upcoming season, mostly because of themyth that Horvat needs him to be successful. Horvat is entirely self made. He plays just as well no matter who he is with. Thats not true for Pearson though.

Pearson is effective with Bo in a more shutdown role with the ability to generate offense. Prior to Pearson, Bo hasn't had a regular winger to work with for a significant period of time. I'm sure Horvat has a say in who he works well with as his winger. No one is denying that Horvat is the driver of the line, but you still need a reliable support cast to make the line effective. Pearson is a middle 6 winger, he's right where he should be.

 

31 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

If the Canucks want to be an actual contender there is no place in their top 6 for Pearson. He just isnt consistent enough at either end of the ice nor dynamic enough to make a difference. On a 3rd line he would be a net positive. 3.25 mil for 3 years for a 3rd linewinger that really doesnt move the needle is too much. Look at all the cup winning vets signed to peanuts deals. What Pearson brings could have beenreplaced by any of themat a third of the cap hit.

Which vets are you thinking about? Would they have wanted to sign here? That's a big factor when hoping to land a UFA of equal quality and especially for cheap.

  • Cheers 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Speaking of context, let's break this down further.

 

UFA status. If Saad got this deal on the market and they are comparables, don't you think Pearson probably could've gotten something similar if he hit the market and therefore the deal he signed with us is considered a "discount"? Or at the very least, if Saad is considered a UFA inflated signing, then once again Pearson is at fair market value.

 

Offensive numbers. The key here is Pettersson was out. When a team is missing their best offensive forward, it creates a ripple effect. Those 3 extra minutes per ice time a game were slightly boosted by the PP time, but also the fact that he PKed and Saad didn't last season. It's nice to be on PP1, but without the biggest threat in Pettersson, it makes it less effective. No one expected Pearson to take over Pettersson's value on the PP. With that said, his minutes also increased a bit because Miller would then have to shift to center leaving more LW time to fill.

 

As for point production, yes Saad has more point last year, but he also had an unusually high shot% compared to his career. Bring that back down to the norm and suddenly it's not as "significant" of a difference. We will see if Saad can keep it up, but it is unlikely IMO. On the other hand, Pearson had one of his worst shot%, so it'll remain to see if he returns back to norm with hopefully a healthy group above him.

 

Defensive play. Pearson paired with Horvat was relied upon to play somewhat of a shutdown role. Saad, given that he had next to no PK time, likely wasn't trusted as much in a defensive role. So perhaps that plays a part into the differences in +/- when you aren't relied to face the tougher competition. This is something that would have to be looked at more with the fancy stats.

 

You bring up the empty net stats and well that's another point towards his defensive game. Who's relied upon late in a game protecting a lead (and thus the empty net availability) having the top opposition bear down on you trying to tie up the game? Empty net points are simply a reward of getting the job done and burying the game.

 

Physical play. I'll add this here since it's been overlooked. Pearson throws over a hit per game (or around 5 hits/60 minutes) and has been willing to get in fights if needed. Saad barely hits (about 2/60 mins) and I don't believe he's ever gotten into a fight. So while Pearson is no enforcer, he's willing to engage in the physical game.

 

Pearson is effective with Bo in a more shutdown role with the ability to generate offense. Prior to Pearson, Bo hasn't had a regular winger to work with for a significant period of time. I'm sure Horvat has a say in who he works well with as his winger. No one is denying that Horvat is the driver of the line, but you still need a reliable support cast to make the line effective. Pearson is a middle 6 winger, he's right where he should be.

 

Which vets are you thinking about? Would they have wanted to sign here? That's a big factor when hoping to land a UFA of equal quality and especially for cheap.

At the time of the re-signing, the consensus in the hockey world seemed to be Pearson would not have received even whathegot from Vancouver on the open market. Maybe oncehemade it to UFA status someone would have gone crazy but based on his play last season its doubtful. 

 

Cant believe I need to say this but +/- is not calculated on the PP or PK so someone PK'ing has no impact. Maybe Saad wasnt used on the PK because Colorado had better options than the Canucks did? Would Pearson be on the PK on Colorado? Would he be on the top PP unit even if someone got injured? Would he be in their top 6? Thats a hard no to all. They were simply a much better team. 

 

Him being in those roles in Van simply speaks to how incredibly weak and shallow their roster has been. Hopefully thatwill change this season.

 

Its always interesting to me that people say no veteran players will take a discount to sign in Van while at the same time ignoring why that would actually be the case if true. If that is true, there is something seriously wrong with the roster, management, and the outlook of potentially being a competitive team going forward.

 

The Canucks were and have been one of the worst defensive teams the past several years. So is there really this evidence that Pearson and Horvat have been elite level shutdown players? They have simply had to be used in that role because who else was going to? Horvat should be used in a more offensive role. Hopefully he will benow and will get more talented offensive wingers to play with.

 

You cant point to a guys offensive ability and compare him to another player favorably when he has that many empty net points. He was 3rd line level production minus those gimmes.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

At the time of the re-signing, the consensus in the hockey world seemed to be Pearson would not have received even whathegot from Vancouver on the open market. Maybe oncehemade it to UFA status someone would have gone crazy but based on his play last season its doubtful. 

Hockey world prediction "consensus" means nothing. We have real world evidence now of what he could've commanded had he hit the open market if Saad is deemed a comparable. We know what Saad got, who knows what Pearson would have on the market, but it was cheaper than Saad.

 

23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Cant believe I need to say this but +/- is not calculated on the PP or PK so someone PK'ing has no impact. Maybe Saad wasnt used on the PK because Colorado had better options than the Canucks did? Would Pearson be on the PK on Colorado? Would he be on the top PP unit even if someone got injured? Would he be in their top 6? Thats a hard no to all. They were simply a much better team. 

Didn't say PK affected his +/-. I was pointing out that if Saad isn't even on the PK, it is unlikely he's trusted in the defensive responsibilities that Pearson had and thus Pearson faced tougher competition in his role. But I could see how it was written that it could've been misinterpreted.

 

Colorado may have had a better team last season, sure, don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. But again, if Pearson and Saad are similar players, one got a higher amount and thus Pearson would technically be a "discount" relatively. That is kind of the whole point in this comparison.

 

23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Him being in those roles in Van simply speaks to how incredibly weak and shallow their roster has been. Hopefully thatwill change this season.

Not Pearson's fault.

 

23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Its always interesting to me that people say no veteran players will take a discount to sign in Van while at the same time ignoring why that would actually be the case if true. If that is true, there is something seriously wrong with the roster, management, and the outlook of potentially being a competitive team going forward.

Never said no veterans would sign here. I was simply asking for examples that you had in mind that are equivalent that signed for a third less. Because I'm curious if those players would've signed those deals here or not. There are other factors than simply wanting to be here or not. There are players that don't want to be in a Canadian market due to the scrutiny or perhaps tax reasons. It doesn't necessarily have to do with how our team is run.

 

23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

The Canucks were and have been one of the worst defensive teams the past several years. So is there really this evidence that Pearson and Horvat have been elite level shutdown players? They have simply had to be used in that role because who else was going to? Horvat should be used in a more offensive role. Hopefully he will benow and will get more talented offensive wingers to play with.

Perhaps they're not elite, but also can't put the entire defensive system on them. Could be many factors. Pearson has been here for about 2.5 seasons. When he came here at first, he played really well and carried that into the following season. Last season wasn't great, but the entire team struggled for one reason or another. The main point is that Pearson (along with Horvat) are known for a two way game. Perhaps we would like to see more offense from Bo, but he will still certainly be utilized in a defensive role still.

 

23 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

You cant point to a guys offensive ability and compare him to another player favorably when he has that many empty net points. He was 3rd line level production minus those gimmes.

3.25 million is certainly within 3rd line level of money as well. Saad is paid more which puts him in the "2nd line" category and if he doesn't put the offensive stats, what else does he provide? Pearson is a middle 6 winger who isn't only useful when producing offensive numbers. The empty net numbers are a padded stat for sure, but it's the reward he got for being entrusted in the defending the lead against the opposition onslaught role. They happened to be clinical that year. I've never used those empty net numbers to boast about his offensive abilities.

 

Meanwhile you've ignored the context of the shooting% of each player where Saad has to sustain to barely be above Pearson's (given that most of Saad's points were goals) and Pearson had a off average shooting%, which could elevate his numbers. Plus the physical play of each isn't discussed.

 

Pearson's contract isn't a bargain, but it's hardly anything worth complaining about.

  • Cheers 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

So, why the arbitrary 2 year time frame to compare them? Dont worry, I know why.

 

You are missing out on a lot of context with your comparison. 

 

Saad's deal was signed with a new team after hitting UFA status. The Avs didnt re-sign him to an overpayment, a new team competing with others did. Pearson was re-signed before there was any competition for his services. Typically that should be a pretty big advantage for the team for a guy in the middle of his worst season.

 

Last year, Pearson produced significantly less than Saad (who was on the Avs 3rd line and 2nd PP unit) in 7 more games with about 3 minutes more ice time per game permanently in the top 6 and on the top PP unit half the year with Petterssen out. 

 

The past 3 years Saad is a combined -6. Pearson is a combined -25. I amnot a fan of plus minus as a defensive stat but it does show one is out for a lot more goals against than goals for. Saad has been pretty consistent point wise over his career too. Pearson has been bad year, good year, bad year the last 3. And even in his good year, 20% of Pearson's points (9 of 45) came with an empty net.

 

Pearson is a 3rd line quality player if on a decent team. I expect he will still be aGreen go to top 6 guy this upcoming season, mostly because of themyth that Horvat needs him to be successful. Horvat is entirely self made. He plays just as well no matter who he is with. Thats not true for Pearson though.

 

If the Canucks want to be an actual contender there is no place in their top 6 for Pearson. He just isnt consistent enough at either end of the ice nor dynamic enough to make a difference. On a 3rd line he would be a net positive. 3.25 mil for 3 years for a 3rd linewinger that really doesnt move the needle is too much. Look at all the cup winning vets signed to peanuts deals. What Pearson brings could have beenreplaced by any of themat a third of the cap hit.

Why the arbitrary 2 year time frame? Because I don't believe what they did when they were 22 makes that much of a difference for these contracts. 

 

But let's play it your way and compare each players best season from their entire careers...

Pearson's best statistical season was 2 years ago. He was on pace for 53 points over 82 games (covid shortened reg season). This while playing a shut down roll against the other teams best players.

Saad's best statistical season was 5 years ago. He had 53 points in 82 games. This while playing top line minutes with the CBJ's.

 

You also say these aren't comparable because Pearson was a pending UFA and Saad was a UFA. They are absolutely comparable because they were both UFA's. If one was a RFA you might have a point.

 

I'm not even going to touch your plus minus argument... that is an absolutely ridiculous stat to be used on an individual level and not worth debating. 

 

You say that Pearson is a 3rd liner on a good team and you also pointed out that Saad was a 3rd liner last season for Colorado. Looks like you've made them direct comparable's...

 

 

At 28% cheaper and 40% less term, there is no logical argument here. Pearson's contract is much better than Saad's and is definitely below market value.

  • Cheers 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...