Draft edition: Benning vs the World

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

If you wish to self identify as a loser, that is your prerogative; but don't include me as part of "we"

His reply in another thread that you can see in my signature says it all.

[RU SERIOUS]

6 hours ago, IBatch said:

May 21st 2014 - present.   That's 7 years plus a couple months.  That's a FACT.  

.....eight years of drafting (FACT)  (forgot to continue adding he word draft in there which is what we've talking about all along)  

[knucklehead91]

26 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

.....eight years of drafting (FACT)  (forgot to continue adding he word draft in there which is what we've talking about all along)  

RU SERIOUS??? Only 7 years of drafting were eligible to play in the NHL. FACT

1. 2014

2. 2015

3. 2016

4. 2017

5. 2018

6. 2019

7. 2020

 

You might want to brush up on your math. I count 7 years of eligibility. Gunna remind you le draft works. A player selected in 2021 cannot go back in time and play for the 2020-21 season. I think you should stop talking and start reading because this is like the 4th time in this thread someone has told you how it works and you have failed completely to acknowledge and understand. 

[Patel Bure]

11 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

You've just confirmed (above) exactly what I stated in my earlier post; that there are 5 good Uncle Jim Picks on our regular Roster.  Rat-Bone, and Pods are unproven rookies and Yo-levi has been a bust (so far), so I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding.  I suspect you're over analyzing or trying to read more into what I stated or maybe you're just having trouble digesting this FACT, so there is nothing more to it than "5 good Uncle jim picks on the regular Roster thru 54 picks".  Plain & simple and not more complicated than that.   

I don’t understand why you’re so obsessed with “how many picks of “uncle Jim’s” has stuck around long term.  Again, study some of the most successful teams in the league and you’ll see how most of these teams also have a blend of homegrown talent, trades, and signings.  Look at the Canucks right now:

 

-two of our 1sts ended up being Miller and Garland via trade.

-Our 5 long term draft picks are our core players (sans Horvat), and represent each position on the ice (C=EP, D=QH, LW=NH, RW=BB, G=TD).  

-And again, par your request, I'm not mentioning those that are coming up in our system (Podz, Dipietro, Rathbone, Juolevi), or the departed that played at least one full season with us (Tryamkin, Gaudette, Virtanen).

Buffalo have had a lot of homegrown draft picks stick around on their team (Eichel, Reinhart, Dahlin, Cozens, etc.,).  How have they done the last few years?  What about Edmonton from 2006-2015? (Hall, Eberle, RNH, Yakupov, etc,).  How did those teams do?   

 

Can you prove that a direct correlation exists between total number of drafted picks that stay on one team for ‘x’ number of years and team point totals?

Edited August 4, 2021 by Patel Bure

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

RU SERIOUS??? Only 7 years of drafting were eligible to play in the NHL. FACT

1. 2014

2. 2015

3. 2016

4. 2017

5. 2018

6. 2019

7. 2020

 

You might want to brush up on your math. I count 7 years of eligibility. Gunna remind you le draft works. A player selected in 2021 cannot go back in time and play for the 2020-21 season. I think you should stop talking and start reading because this is like the 4th time in this thread someone has told you how it works and you have failed completely to acknowledge and understand. 

It's a FACT ... RU serious really does seem grumpy about JB.   I get it (seriously i do).  But any way your slice what he's done, compared to his actual peer group, he's done a decent to good job all around.    And for the second time since i've watched them, we have a group of young guys actually carrying the mail.   Naslund was TWENTY-7 when he broke out.   That's because Messier taught him the ropes - which he actually did, that's for the Sundin fans that think 3.5 months of him pushed the Sedins into super stardom.   Only Linden, Bure and Nedved did anything as young as these guys have done for us so far.  Ronning too (24).    Our elder vet is freaking Miller.   Maybe the don't make the playoffs in which case i'm sure there will be hell to pay.   Maybe they follow up with a conference final appearance after that who knows.     There is for sure reasons enough for optimism though.   Not perfect but getting better.   Back to Messier of course that was a tongue in cheek thing.   But seriously since we are talking about serious stuff and all.    Sundin had nothing to do with the Sedins ascension.   For them Crosby was out with a concussion and the stars lined up that is it.  

[iceman64]

On 8/3/2021 at 1:11 AM, Arrow 1983 said:

I would also point out a lot of what you wrote goes on to tell exactly why drafting outside of the top 5 and sometimes even top 2 spots is a crap shoot. 

This year they had 9th overall in a year nobody could scout properly.

One a team has built a core it is wiser to trade picks for proven players rather than to draft players. I feel a lot of people can not get there heads around the fact that drafting 18 year olds is a crap shoot in itself. Every pro league has seen #1 picks go bust. Look at the 1999 year for a prime example.

The research you did on this is incredible. 

That's exactly why I was so in favour of the JT Miller trade, instantly we got better and didn't have to draft and develop (or not "bust") 

 Then $&!#e hit the fan and everyone forgot about that and flamed Jimbo while we got a top line player that we needed and still need, against a "maybe" at a draft pick?! Good grief.. Jimbo rocked that one! People are underestimating this team, which is as close as we've been for awhile, I can hardly wait for sept 23rd!  nevermind the next few seasons and beyond, which should be a lot of fun to watch since players with overdrive naturally are coming in to add to Motte etc and will keep things competitive, finally it's almost over and the player turnstile will hopefully come to a slow stop for a change... GCG! 

 

[CanuckleHorse]

6 hours ago, knucklehead91 said:

RU SERIOUS??? Only 7 years of drafting were eligible to play in the NHL. FACT

1. 2014

2. 2015

3. 2016

4. 2017

5. 2018

6. 2019

7. 2020

 

You might want to brush up on your math. I count 7 years of eligibility. Gunna remind you le draft works. A player selected in 2021 cannot go back in time and play for the 2020-21 season. I think you should stop talking and start reading because this is like the 4th time in this thread someone has told you how it works and you have failed completely to acknowledge and understand. 

It’s one dude with multiple accounts having a blast being an idiot with no life who has nothing better to do than be here starting arguments with Canuck fans.

[Viper007]

18 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

While I generally agree with your logic, calculations, stats and angle it still does not negate my statement of fact that only 5 players out of the entire 54 that Uncle Jim has drafted over the last eight years are on this teams regular roster.   That is simply the point I am making, so any woulda, shoulda, coulda, re-dicing and slicing of stats cannot change that TRUE FACT !  But with that said, i share your hope and optimism that more will make the team one day.

Why does the draft pick have to be on the teams regular roster to be considered a success?  It's if they're playing in the NHL or not that should be the determining factor of drafting success.

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, iceman64 said:

That's exactly why I was so in favour of the JT Miller trade, instantly we got better and didn't have to draft and develop (or not "bust") 

 Then $&!#e hit the fan and everyone forgot about that and flamed Jimbo while we got a top line player that we needed and still need, against a "maybe" at a draft pick?! Good grief.. Jimbo rocked that one! People are underestimating this team, which is as close as we've been for awhile, I can hardly wait for sept 23rd!  nevermind the next few seasons and beyond, which should be a lot of fun to watch since players with overdrive naturally are coming in to add to Motte etc and will keep things competitive, finally it's almost over and the player turnstile will hopefully come to a slow stop for a change... GCG! 

 

That's a good post!   I'm also looking forward to training camp and the start of the season.    I wonder, just wonder, if this team gets 100-110 points, if those that have been so darn cynical and critical over last season, will eat their crow and admit it WAS the schedule, it WAS no training camp it WAS all part of the plan.   And finally get of TG back.   8-3 or whatever to start WITHOUT  our best forward.    We were tacking and tracking for a playoff spot until AG spat all over it (ok well he is gone ... so where there is smoke ...).     Anyone who's worked, i'm not talking about staying home in your underwear doing zoom meetings, but who's actually worked with masks on the entire time, 40 hours a week...understands what these guys did to entertain us last season.   Sh!t up their nose every day.   Isolation.   All i'm going to say is this season should be era defining in a way.   At the end of the day we are adding Garland and Podz.   Both tough players regardless of size.   And OEL for sure should be >> then 36 year old Edler.   Halak = Holbty.   Well actually he's better as of now but call it a wash. 

 

Last year we added Schmidt and has high expectations as we should have.    So i'm going to reserve judgement - but feel that we've got a better team.   There is a LOT of unknowns too...can EP and QHs plays 82 games?   We don't know that yet do we?   QHs looks like a child sitting next to slightly better built kids on the couch on draft day, and one of EPs intangibles is drawing penalties because well he falls over with the slightest contact.   

 

Will say this team will be better if i had to make a choice.   Vegas and EDM are for sure our biggest opponents in our division, LA is now re-tooled properly and a dark horse.   Seattle?   No comment.   Vegas.   Could be great could be meh.   What gives me the most hope is tell me how many one goal (plus maybe an EN goal) we lost last year?   Most of them.  We didn't get massively blown out anytime.   Back to TG.  That's on him.   It's also on him for us not being better prepared.   Despite the excuses. 

 

I think this team could surprise a lot of people.   I also think this team might not quite be out of the woods yet.   It truly now becomes all about the core.   Can they ascend?   

[RU SERIOUS]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

That's a good post!   I'm also looking forward to training camp and the start of the season.    I wonder, just wonder, if this team gets 100-110 points, if those that have been so darn cynical and critical over last season, will eat their crow and admit it WAS the schedule, it WAS no training camp it WAS all part of the plan.   And finally get of TG back.   8-3 or whatever to start WITHOUT  our best forward.    We were tacking and tracking for a playoff spot until AG spat all over it (ok well he is gone ... so where there is smoke ...).     Anyone who's worked, i'm not talking about staying home in your underwear doing zoom meetings, but who's actually worked with masks on the entire time, 40 hours a week...understands what these guys did to entertain us last season.   Sh!t up their nose every day.   Isolation.   All i'm going to say is this season should be era defining in a way.   At the end of the day we are adding Garland and Podz.   Both tough players regardless of size.   And OEL for sure should be >> then 36 year old Edler.   Halak = Holbty.   Well actually he's better as of now but call it a wash. 

 

Last year we added Schmidt and has high expectations as we should have.    So i'm going to reserve judgement - but feel that we've got a better team.   There is a LOT of unknowns too...can EP and QHs plays 82 games?   We don't know that yet do we?   QHs looks like a child sitting next to slightly better built kids on the couch on draft day, and one of EPs intangibles is drawing penalties because well he falls over with the slightest contact.   

 

Will say this team will be better if i had to make a choice.   Vegas and EDM are for sure our biggest opponents in our division, LA is now re-tooled properly and a dark horse.   Seattle?   No comment.   Vegas.   Could be great could be meh.   What gives me the most hope is tell me how many one goal (plus maybe an EN goal) we lost last year?   Most of them.  We didn't get massively blown out anytime.   Back to TG.  That's on him.   It's also on him for us not being better prepared.   Despite the excuses. 

 

I think this team could surprise a lot of people.   I also think this team might not quite be out of the woods yet.   It truly now becomes all about the core.   Can they ascend?   

I have to agree that we will no doubt be better this coming year following last year's fiasco and disasterous outcome finishing in the bottom 10 again with all those washed out and deadbeat players that were on our roster and there will be more to cheer about.  Despite all the optimism of the new guys joining our team via trade and the new rookie prospects likely to play, my main concerns are what happens in 2-3 years when we're needing to replenish the front lines with good draft picks that should of been picked this year and last - but were not due to JB trading those draft picks away and were the short term gains good enough to get us deep into the playoffs and win or just enough to scratch our way into the playoffs (which is short term thinking and not the end goal), and last but not least - the OEL contract, that has all the markings of possibly becoming an albatross contract when he's appraching mid 30's.

 

I'm very cautiously optimistic about the next year or two but those concerns are justifiably real potential issues sitting in the background.

Fingers crossed!

[RU SERIOUS]

14 hours ago, Viper007 said:

Why does the draft pick have to be on the teams regular roster to be considered a success?  It's if they're playing in the NHL or not that should be the determining factor of drafting success.

Isn't that the whole point of drafting ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Or in your mind, is drafting for the benefit of other teams?

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Isn't that the whole point of drafting ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Or in your mind, is drafting for the benefit of other teams?

Of Tampa’s defence core for their two Cups, only Hedman was drafted.  

[J-P]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Of Tampa’s defence core for their two Cups, only Hedman was drafted.  

I wouldn't say "only" Hedman as he's like a quite good player with some impact on games, but yeah, I get your point

[Jester13]

13 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

I have to agree that we will no doubt be better this coming year following last year's fiasco and disasterous outcome finishing in the bottom 10 again with all those washed out and deadbeat players that were on our roster and there will be more to cheer about.  Despite all the optimism of the new guys joining our team via trade and the new rookie prospects likely to play, my main concerns are what happens in 2-3 years when we're needing to replenish the front lines with good draft picks that should of been picked this year and last - but were not due to JB trading those draft picks away and were the short term gains good enough to get us deep into the playoffs and win or just enough to scratch our way into the playoffs (which is short term thinking and not the end goal), and last but not least - the OEL contract, that has all the markings of possibly becoming an albatross contract when he's appraching mid 30's.

 

I'm very cautiously optimistic about the next year or two but those concerns are justifiably real potential issues sitting in the background.

Fingers crossed!

Why RU so worried about the unknown distant future? Do you think Benning & Co won't be able to trade and replenish and draft well moving forward? They've done a heck of a job rebuilding this team from the ground up, so there's really no reason to believe they'll be handcuffing themselves in the future.

 

Sure, we have more contracts to renew over the years and it'll be tight, but ship out Myers for a pick, bring on Woo or someone else, move Miller for what we paid for him, etc. etc. Even OELs contract can be bought out if needed. I really don't think there's much to be concerned about anymore now that all the dead weight (stop-gap players, btw) is gone. 

[RU SERIOUS]

15 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Of Tampa’s defence core for their two Cups, only Hedman was drafted.  

Point noted - which may have been the result in that case - but still does not change the intentions of drafting - to benefit one's own team.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Point noted - which may have been the result in that case - but still does not change the intentions of drafting - to benefit one's own team.

Draft picks are an asset.  They are used to select players, and (or) trade for players.  The prospects drafted are used to trade for players too.  Benning drafted his elite young core, and he’s been using multiple methods (including trading picks and prospects) to build a supporting group.  This is what all teams do.  20OA for Miller.  Great trade.  9OA for OEL, Garland and cap space (dumping three contracts) is another great trade.  This is building a very good supporting cast around an elite young core.  

[RU SERIOUS]

11 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Why RU so worried about the unknown distant future? Do you think Benning & Co won't be able to trade and replenish and draft well moving forward? They've done a heck of a job rebuilding this team from the ground up, so there's really no reason to believe they'll be handcuffing themselves in the future.

 

Sure, we have more contracts to renew over the years and it'll be tight, but ship out Myers for a pick, bring on Woo or someone else, move Miller for what we paid for him, etc. etc. Even OELs contract can be bought out if needed. I really don't think there's much to be concerned about anymore now that all the dead weight (stop-gap players, btw) is gone. 

Maybe, my worry eminated from watching MG trade our future away and now watching JB trade 2 years of high draft picks away is resurecting flashbacks.    Perhaps just an instinctual reaction ???

Edited August 5, 2021 by RU SERIOUS

[Patel Bure]

11 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Point noted - which may have been the result in that case - but still does not change the intentions of drafting - to benefit one's own team.

The Colorado Avalanche also currently have "only five" draft picks that are established roster players as of this writing:

 

https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005307.html

 

-Cale Makar

-Tyson Jost

-Mikko Rantanen

-Nathan MacKinnon

-Gabriel Landescog

 

They, like us, also have picks coming up in the system

-Bowen Byram

-Alex Newhook

-Conor Timmins

-Martin Kaut

 

And have also had homegrown picks over the years move to other teams..........(Matt Duchene, Ryan O'Reilly, Kevin Shattenkirk, etc.)

 

So again, I ask............what is the point of your observation?

 

 

Tampa Bay: https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008385.html

 

-Anthony Cirelli

-Braden Point

-Andrei Vasilevsky

-Cedrique Paquette

-Nikita Kucherov

-Ondrej Palat

-Victor Hedman

-Steve Stamkos

-Alex Killorn

 

Tampa Bay have had 9 picks "stick" since 2007 (9 in 14 years) while the Canucks have had 5 picks stick in 7 years.

 

5/7 = 10/14 > 9/14.

 

So by my count, the Canucks, under Benning, have had a higher percentage of picks 'sticking' than Tampa Bay since 2007.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Patel Bure

[TheCammer]

Well written but I now have Styx "Too Much Time On My Hands" on play and repeat in my brain. Thanks for the Earworm.   

[BarnBurner]

1 hour ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Isn't that the whole point of drafting ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Or in your mind, is drafting for the benefit of other teams?

Why didn't Pittsburgh keep Naslund, or ugh, us Neely? There are far too many examples of gambling on trading drafted players in hope of improving the team.