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[Rumour] Arizona could deal Christian Dvorak - reject Bruins offer


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I don’t have a blind spot for Q and am interested in any discussion about his potential value in trade but there’s no way Chychrun has anywhere near the ceiling Q has.

 

You might win this trade if we somehow could replay the 2021 season with the exact same results.

 

Don’t think there’s a Norris in Q’s future but he is/will be far more dynamic and a game changer given that he is supported in his role.

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11 hours ago, Dats hockey said:

I don’t watch Arizona enough to make a deep analysis of this I just get stats advanced stats and highlight. But I’ve seen enough of Hughes to know how good he is. 2 years into his career… what's Chychrun? 5 years? Nothing special he’s done?

Ahh, this is exactly what HKSR has stated

18 hours ago, HKSR said:

I think this is a classic case of homerism.  Quinn Hughes is an incredible offensive defenceman, but he will never be an elite all-around defenceman.  He just doesn't have the size or strength for it.  To survive in the NHL, he literally uses his shiftiness to get away from other players rather than engage with them.  He even talked about knowing he is not exactly a physical specimen during the interviews with the Hughes brothers on draft day this year.

 

Meanwhile, Chychrun is severely being underrated by CDCers here.  He is literally realizing the potential that was there that had him projected early on as a Top 3 draft pick (perhaps even 1st overall).  He was on pace for 60pts and 26 goals(!) this past season if it were an 82 game schedule.  He's 6'2" 210lbs, skates really well, has a cannon of a shot, and isn't afraid of engaging with the opposition either.

 

Like you, in my mind, Hughes and Chychrun are basically a wash... but some CDCers will never see that unless Chychrun was a Canuck.

I'll be honest I didn't know much about Jakob either except that people viewed him as a reach way back when he was drafted, and look where we are now (lucky for us we get YouTube to see at least a glimpse of the players).  Also don't forget that he plays for Arizona which hasn't had much team success.  I'd view him as another Chabot/ Ekblad (elite D-man who doesn't get the press because of where he plays) or Shea Theodore (lost in the crowd where he plays, e.g. with Fleury/ now Pietrangelo) but like the first two examp;es where he's the workhorse (which would be the case since OEL is now here) they deserve attention and media and fan consideration.  His stats and physical attributes don't lie, because he's very much a special #1 D-man.  

Edited by Phil_314
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Chychrun was 10th in Norris voting for good reason. If the Yotes had a better team he'd probably be top 5. He had a really good year and has been trending very well.

 

Hughes is one of the best offensive defenseman in the league and Chychrun is one of the best all-around defenseman in the league.

 

Chychrun has a lot more experience but he also started playing right away 2 drafts before Quinn. Only offensive guys do well in those types of circumstances but it says a lot that despite starting as an 18 year old he wasn't stunted in growth. Chychrun is also only 1.5 years older than Hughes.

 

If they offered Dvorak and Chychrun for Hughes you take that and run.  Both Chychrun(4.6M) and Dvorak(4.45) are on good deals for the next 4 years and fit our age group well. Dvorak is a borderline 2nd C/great 3rd C, Kadri level player at 25 years of age. Hughes probably takes up 3/4(6.78M) of both Chychrun/Dvorak(9.05M) at least.

 

It would work well too because Poolman/Myers/Pearson would end before or the same time as both of them. We might have to shed Pearson though when Horvat/Miller come around.

 

Pipedream though. Yotes probably wouldn't trade Chychrun for Hughes straight up with Chychrun's bargain cap hit for long term and being the better overall player as it stands.

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Chychrun was my second choice for who the Canucks should have drafted in 2016 (Sergachev was number one), According to some scouting reports, Chychrun does have some aspects of his game which need work, mostly related to a lack of consistency in his physical game. From my reading of this, he is pretty much always good, it's just that he has the potential to always be great. Chychrun can score points (assume I've shown you his stats).  

 

(*This being said, I do believe that Juolevi will be a good d-man for this team.*)

 

Dvorak does look like a pretty good middle-6 center, and could fit in nicely here. (Assume I've shown you his stats.)

 

Hughes does have a high ceiling for offense, but is it so high that it is out of his reach without the right type of partner? He really does need that perfect right side partner (smart, mobile, size/physical, good defensively, some offense, etc), and I'm not so sure that the Canucks have one as yet, at the NHL level or coming up through the ranks. Yes, Hughes will still score lots of points, but he could score lots more, and not be as much of a defensive liability with the right partner. If the Canucks can't acquire this golden boy right side d-man, then maybe moving Hughes for players who can fit the team right now might not be such a bad idea.

 

I like Motte, and I'd be sorry to see him go. Hopefully one of the players already here, or one of the younger guys coming up could fill that role

 

The 1st round pick, assuming the trade worked out well for the Canucks would likely be a 20+ 1st rounder (I'm speculating 25ish), which somewhat lessens its value. I'd look at maybe getting a swap of 3rd round picks, or maybe the Canucks could get an add of a 2nd, or perhaps just delete the Canucks' 3rd from the trade.

 

I still might not make this trade, but I would think about it a lot, for a fairly long time.

 

And I'm not so sure that Arizona would make this trade, unless they felt very confident that they could flip Hughes for something which they felt was worth a lot more than what they gave up. There aren't a lot of teams with multiple 1st round picks in 2022 (atm, Buffalo and Colombus), but Buffalo does have some high profile forwards who they may want to move.

 

                                                      regards,  G.

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On 8/11/2021 at 3:29 PM, Dats hockey said:

I don’t watch Arizona enough to make a deep analysis of this I just get stats advanced stats and highlight. But I’ve seen enough of Hughes to know how good he is. 2 years into his career… whats Chychrun? 5 years? Nothing special he’s done?

Sure, cause 41 points including 18 goals in 56 games by a dman while playing on a matchup pairing isnt anything special.

 

But 3 goals by a guy who cant play nhl level defense and has to be sheltered is?

 

Cmon. I love Hughes but thats just extreme homerism.

 

Chychrun is incredibly underrated on here by people who clearly have never watched him play. He is as close to a true all around #1 guy as it gets. And he is the reason Arizona was desperate to offload OEL onto Vancouver.

Edited by wallstreetamigo
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1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Sure, cause 41 points including 18 goals in 56 games by a dman while playing on a matchup pairing isnt anything special.

 

But 3 goals by a guy who cant play nhl level defense and has to be sheltered is?

 

Cmon. I love Hughes but thats just extreme homerism.

 

Chychrun is incredibly underrated on here by people who clearly have never watched him play. He is as close to a true all around #1 guy as it gets. And he is the reason Arizona was desperate to offload OEL onto Vancouver.

Wat?

 

If people here are under-rating Chychrun (that much is likely true) -  your embellishing - and talking through your hat - which is not the answer - it's just an equal and opposite uninformed counterpoint.

 

Chychrun is as close to a true all around #1 guy as it gets?

You're getting carried away with all due respect.

 

Doing your due dilligence - or learning how to do you due dilligence - before making claims like this would prevent you from needing to shoot from the hip like you do.

 

Chychrun - had the highest ozone starts on the Coyotes blueline - at 56.9%.

Hjalrmarrson 38.4%

Demers 44

Lyubushkin 45.8

OEL 46.3.....

Goligoski - his primary partner - at 50.3% - had better underlying numbers than Chychrun - the more 'stay at home' of the two wadr - and blocked more shots than Chychrun.

 

The second highest on ice goals against (3.2 per 60 5on5).

Hjalmarsson, Demers, Lyubushkin, Goligoski all gave up less - in harder minutes.

 

The 2nd lowest on ice save % (.891) on the blueline (only Oesterle was lower).

 

6th in penalty killing ice time - at less than a minute / game.

Hjalmarsson 3:32

Goligoski 2:56

OEL 1:44

Demers 1:32

Oesterle 1:12

 

5th in hits on that blueline - Lybushkin, Goligoski, OEL, Demers - all more physical, more consistently physical - than him.

 

He lead the blueline in scoring, ice time - and powerplay ice time (ironically, the three metrics that Hughes lead the Canucks).

 

I realize that for new agers - that constitutes "as close to an all around #1 as it gets"....but....

 

The reason Arizona was desperate to offload OEL = cool, contrived story...... 'desperate' to unload him.....so they could go out and eat the contracts of Stralman and Gostibehere = #proper-asset-management!0!

#rethinging.

 

 

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1 hour ago, oldnews said:

Wat?

 

If people here are under-rating Chychrun (that much is likely true) -  your embellishing - and talking through your hat - which is not the answer - it's just an equal and opposite uninformed counterpoint.

 

Chychrun is as close to a true all around #1 guy as it gets?

You're getting carried away with all due respect.

 

Doing your due dilligence - or learning how to do you due dilligence - before making claims like this would prevent you from needing to shoot from the hip like you do.

 

Chychrun - had the highest ozone starts on the Coyotes blueline - at 56.9%.

Hjalrmarrson 38.4%

Demers 44

Lyubushkin 45.8

OEL 46.3.....

Goligoski - his primary partner - at 50.3% - had better underlying numbers than Chychrun - the more 'stay at home' of the two wadr - and blocked more shots than Chychrun.

 

The second highest on ice goals against (3.2 per 60 5on5).

Hjalmarsson, Demers, Lyubushkin, Goligoski all gave up less - in harder minutes.

 

The 2nd lowest on ice save % (.891) on the blueline (only Oesterle was lower).

 

6th in penalty killing ice time - at less than a minute / game.

Hjalmarsson 3:32

Goligoski 2:56

OEL 1:44

Demers 1:32

Oesterle 1:12

 

5th in hits on that blueline - Lybushkin, Goligoski, OEL, Demers - all more physical, more consistently physical - than him.

 

He lead the blueline in scoring, ice time - and powerplay ice time (ironically, the three metrics that Hughes lead the Canucks).

 

I realize that for new agers - that constitutes "as close to an all around #1 as it gets"....but....

 

The reason Arizona was desperate to offload OEL = cool, contrived story...... 'desperate' to unload him.....so they could go out and eat the contracts of Stralman and Gostibehere = #proper-asset-management!0!

#rethinging.

 

 

You know when i was look at my advance stats I didn’t see the matchup lol. Never said the kid wasn’t good either not sure what the mans talking about but all I do know is JC had 1 standout year outta 5

but Quinn on the other hand has had 2 outta 2 really good production consistent in his point production and have had 1 outta 1 standout playoffs just need to work on defense 

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On 8/12/2021 at 10:59 PM, Dats hockey said:

You know when i was look at my advance stats I didn’t see the matchup lol. Never said the kid wasn’t good either not sure what the mans talking about but all I do know is JC had 1 standout year outta 5

but Quinn on the other hand has had 2 outta 2 really good production consistent in his point production and have had 1 outta 1 standout playoffs just need to work on defense 

'quality of competition' is probably the most useless/pretentious of all so-called 'advanced stats' imo - but regardless, as pointed out above - he's not used as an all around all situations #1 (in fact there are so few of those type defensemen that the description really should be reserved for the few Shea Weber types of the NHL).

And more and more - as bluelines have become deeper, the concept of a "top 4" also becomes blurred and more meaningless - you get guys that are situational "top 4" - defensive or offensive, pk or pp, and with the amount of quality depth in the present game, it's less and less necessary to have a "true #1D" in order to be successful.  Most "#1" tend to lean, naturally to one side or the other (depending on their strengths) - it's rare that you have a guy like Weber who would be your #1 regardless of situation - pk, pp, 5on5 when you need to hold a lead, 5on5 when you're playing from behind....

Chychrun is a real talent imo - great toolbox - potential to develop into a "#1" (is already that in a few senses) - but suggesting he's already all that, 'true all around #1" talk - doesn't hold water.   He's a #1 in a few senses, and has his share of work to do in others (like practically any 23 yr old defenseman).

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54 minutes ago, oldnews said:

'quality of competition' is probably the most useless/pretentious of all so-called 'advanced stats' imo - but regardless, as pointed out above - he's not used as an all around all situations #1 (in fact there are so few of those type defensemen that the description really should be reserved for the few Shea Weber types of the NHL).

And more and more - as bluelines have become deeper, the concept of a "top 4" also becomes blurred and more meaningless - you get guys that are situational "top 4" - defensive or offensive, pk or pp, and with the amount of quality depth in the present game, it's less and less necessary to have a "true #1D" in order to be successful.  Most "#1" tend to lean, naturally to one side or the other (depending on their strengths) - it's rare that you have a guy like Weber who would be your #1 regardless of situation - pk, pp, 5on5 when you need to hold a lead, 5on5 when you're playing from behind....

Chychrun is a real talent imo - great toolbox - potential to develop into a "#1" (is already that in a few senses) - but suggesting he's already all that, 'true all around #1" talk - doesn't hold water.   He's a #1 in a few senses, and has his share of work to do in others (like practically any 23 yr old defenseman).

IMO Tanev paired with an Ideal offensive Dman makes him a top 2 but by himself he’s a top 4. So I get you point about blurred I personally think there’s maybe 3-5 of those In the NHL

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1 hour ago, Dats hockey said:

IMO Tanev paired with an Ideal offensive Dman makes him a top 2 but by himself he’s a top 4. So I get you point about blurred I personally think there’s maybe 3-5 of those In the NHL

yeah - by blurred I mean that you have guys like Tanev - that are your principal penalty killer and hard minutes/matchup/shutdown D - and in that sense he's a borderline #1 while on the other side of the puck, he's not a "top4".   Hughes - may be a #1 offensively - and your 6th best defender....is he "top pairing" or.....

So you have offensive defensemen that you don't/wouldn't use in any of those situations you utilize a Tanev - so how are they 'categorized'?   And then you have two-way guys - perhaps secondary penalty killers, or secondary powerplay options, while at 5on5 they play varied minutes.   Edler may be your 2nd best defensive defenseman and your second best offensive defenseman....making him, imo your #1 (and probably leads your team in ice-time - but is he "top pairing"/second pairing....?    Overall ice time can also become misleading / situational (dependent to a certain extent how particular games break down)......You have 'third pairings' that may be made up of guys that you'd consider 'top4' among your defensive defensemen...You even have "third pairings" on some teams - ie Tampa - had a 'third pairing' of Sergachev/Savard....the traditional concept of a "top 4" breaks down at a certain point.  It's not like the 1980s (or earlier - or even 90s) when two way roles weren't necessarily as 'specialized' or developed, teams weren't necessarily as deep - and the concept of a "top4" - language we still use but is just not as meaningful as it was.

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  • 3 weeks later...

further Dvorak speculation from Engels:

 

Quote

With a first- and a third-round pick from Carolina giving the Canadiens 12 picks in the 2022 Draft, could Bergevin look to shed some of that capital to acquire Arizona Coyotes centre Christian Dvorak? It’s a deal he’d be wise to explore, with the Coyotes proving over the last month that they’re on a quest to collect as many high-end picks as possible and with Dvorak giving the Canadiens at least as much reliability down the middle as Kotkaniemi would’ve provided this coming season.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article/canadiens-bergevin-must-explore-options-matching-kotkaniemi-offer/

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On 8/12/2021 at 3:53 AM, Phil_314 said:

Ahh, this is exactly what HKSR has stated

I'll be honest I didn't know much about Jakob either except that people viewed him as a reach way back when he was drafted, and look where we are now (lucky for us we get YouTube to see at least a glimpse of the players).  Also don't forget that he plays for Arizona which hasn't had much team success.  I'd view him as another Chabot/ Ekblad (elite D-man who doesn't get the press because of where he plays) or Shea Theodore (lost in the crowd where he plays, e.g. with Fleury/ now Pietrangelo) but like the first two examp;es where he's the workhorse (which would be the case since OEL is now here) they deserve attention and media and fan consideration.  His stats and physical attributes don't lie, because he's very much a special #1 D-man.  

Definitely not a reach. He actually slipped down the rankings and was touted a top three pick much of his draft year.

 

https://thehockeywriters.com/jakob-chychrun-the-next-ones-nhl-2016-draft-prospect-profile/

Edited by Gawdzukes
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On 8/10/2021 at 9:25 PM, HKSR said:

Would you? Would you?

 

To VAN:

Dvorak

Chychrun

 

To ARZ:

Hughes

Motte

2022 1st Round pick

2022 3rd Round pick

 

Boeser-Petey-Miller

Garland-Dvorak-Podkolzin

Pearson-Bo-Hoglander

Dickinson-Sutter-Highmore

Looking at the response, guess that is a no....:ph34r:

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On 8/10/2021 at 4:25 PM, HKSR said:

Would you? Would you?

 

To VAN:

Dvorak

Chychrun

 

To ARZ:

Hughes

Motte

2022 1st Round pick

2022 3rd Round pick

 

Boeser-Petey-Miller

Garland-Dvorak-Podkolzin

Pearson-Bo-Hoglander

Dickinson-Sutter-Highmore

Cracking Up Lol GIF by HULU

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