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Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread

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8 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Some are saying pay them anything just to get it done at this point.   Like Dubas did.    Look how that has worked out for them, and sorry EP isn't Mathews, and QHs isn't Marner.   They have two guys that are near the top at their positions.   And zero cap space to make it work so far come post season.   If they need to sit out so be it.   I'd rather do that, then sign them to deals they have little chance in earning.    

 

In that scenario, we make some trades, and fill out the roster with what's left in free agency (one year deals).   Get to see what Rathbone can do, OJ  can as well. I'm not a fan of overpaying RFAs, it's a dangerous slope for the entire NHL.   JB as a responsible manager, for both the team and the league would be better off not relenting to anything ridiculous.    So far he hasn't but also understand this is a lot more pressure then Horvat and BB as well.   On BB.   It was clear early on - they were so way way far off on a long term deal, that he went ahead and started filling out the roster and the CDC went a little mental then too.   With only around 6 left, how in the world could we sign BB too?   Well it worked out perfectly.   He wasn't overpaid - and even then wow look at the trade threads when he was stumbling a little.   A lot of them - for Dumba plus our first mostly lol.     Or Trouba ... ugh look at NYR and that albatross now.  Lost his spot too.  

 

In 94 we went through this with Nedved. That turned out pretty well for us in the end too didn't it?    Point is let's relax.   And also let's not give up our cap future if the agent is being as unreasonable as BB was.    QHs has zero rights.   He's a massive trade chip too.   So is EP but he's got some.      They haven't earned a massive pay day yet, that's what third contract money is about - although they have earned about what we have left on long term deals.   

Cap future was given away when we got OEL.

cap flexibility left with Pearson and poolman 

 

Cap management has never been JB strong suit lol not that anything has.

 

these are two players we need to win these are the two corner stones of this franchise 

these aren’t the players you cheap out on and “ask” for a deal. I keep reading they have no rights as rfas so then why aren’t they signed. 
huh.

agents know Jb is a lame duck he has to win this season and to do it without EP and hughes good luck.

 

to suggest we trade the two players that are the present and future of what this team is built on is the same as saying good by to building a powerhouse and pissing of not only a large part of the fan base but also a team filled with guys coming to the end of their contracts that are sick of excuses and losing 

boeser horvat to name a few.

Besides Jb doesn’t have the required abilities to make those trades. 

it would be A PR nightmare created by lack of foresight and poor judgement (what else is new)

 
Jbs the one with no choice he’ll have to sign these players because he was almost fired last season he won’t get a phone call to say your not fired this season. 

And that’s why I still believe they will be signed before camp but I’d be surprised if we didn’t have to make some trades to clear some cap space before the season.

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12 minutes ago, combover said:

Cap future was given away when we got OEL.

cap flexibility left with Pearson and poolman 

 

Cap management has never been JB strong suit lol not that anything has.

 

these are two players we need to win these are the two corner stones of this franchise 

these aren’t the players you cheap out on and “ask” for a deal. I keep reading they have no rights as rfas so then why aren’t they signed. 
huh.

agents know Jb is a lame duck he has to win this season and to do it without EP and hughes good luck.

 

to suggest we trade the two players that are the present and future of what this team is built on is the same as saying good by to building a powerhouse and pissing of not only a large part of the fan base but also a team filled with guys coming to the end of their contracts that are sick of excuses and losing 

boeser horvat to name a few.

Besides Jb doesn’t have the required abilities to make those trades. 

it would be A PR nightmare created by lack of foresight and poor judgement (what else is new)

 
Jbs the one with no choice he’ll have to sign these players because he was almost fired last season he won’t get a phone call to say your not fired this season. 

And that’s why I still believe they will be signed before camp but I’d be surprised if we didn’t have to make some trades to clear some cap space before the season.

OEL,  if he was on the market this summer, would have got at least what he did from us.   Think about that.   With Edler gone, it's a reasonable replacement.    At a fair price (cap hit).   Nobody complained about Edlers cap hit last two years .... i'm willing to wait and see how that works out - but who else would we of had to massively overpay, to come here and with no cap space (and on that i 100% agree, we were one year off on a lot of these signings...some horseshoes to get out of it that easily, and for sure it was his doing in the first place). 

 

We had cap issues.   What we have now, is more then acceptable waste compared to the rest of the NHL - that is the buyout for Holtby and JV next year i'm taking about.    

 

If JB can take a garbage pile worth of contracts and a first who ended up being the least desirable of whom we might have had (changed completely if it was RHD guy who almost made it to us) ... why do you think we have no flexibility now?   Pearson is a deal we can move later and get something for.    3.25 for a top six LW, which for now at least he is, wouldn't be a tough trade other then whatever is on his trade list maybe.   He's right in the latter part of the best 64 LWs as of now...call it middle six it still works.   Easy trade with zero retention.    Add that plus Ferland LTIR, there is enough money available to give both EP and QHs Dubas cringeworthy contracts.    

 

Poolman i agree is a head scratcher.   Pro scouting better be right on him ... some calculators came right out where we paid him so i'm willing to wait before i say - oh sh!t for a bottom pairing guy.   For me the most risk was Garland. 

 

Yes i'd prefer to trade both players then pay them 10 x 8 and 9 x 8 which we could swing.   With a minor trade or two.    Also pretty sure that would be it for JB. 

 

Do i think it will happen?  Of course not. I still think we will see them both on the opening night roster.    The point - and it's rather simple - is JB shouldn't relent and pull a Dubas.    He might have to.  But i sure hope he doesn't, the fan resentment will start right away - on this site.   Look at BB and his deal was considered fair/good by most .... and he had a tough time living up to it, got injured, TT his massive love affair started (and continues) etc.    JB has shown he's going to back this core up all along, (which he did by trading for TT) as well as honouring MG contracts/clauses, and most of his UFAs aside from Holtby (head scratcher a little but it's who Clarke wanted) and JV buyouts.    It a minor miracle he pulled it off.   I read enough of your posts to get your not a fan of JB.   Some of his stuff i'm not or haven't been either - but willing to see it out as well.   I'm glad they aren't signed yet, because given how long it's taken, can imagine just like BB, they were way off at the start of the process. 

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2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

OEL,  if he was on the market this summer, would have got at least what he did from us.   Think about that.   With Edler gone, it's a reasonable replacement.    At a fair price (cap hit).   Nobody complained about Edlers cap hit last two years .... i'm willing to wait and see how that works out - but who else would we of had to massively overpay, to come here and with no cap space (and on that i 100% agree, we were one year off on a lot of these signings...some horseshoes to get out of it that easily, and for sure it was his doing in the first place). 

 

We had cap issues.   What we have now, is more then acceptable waste compared to the rest of the NHL - that is the buyout for Holtby and JV next year i'm taking about.    

 

If JB can take a garbage pile worth of contracts and a first who ended up being the least desirable of whom we might have had (changed completely if it was RHD guy who almost made it to us) ... why do you think we have no flexibility now?   Pearson is a deal we can move later and get something for.    3.25 for a top six LW, which for now at least he is, wouldn't be a tough trade other then whatever is on his trade list maybe.   He's right in the latter part of the best 64 LWs as of now...call it middle six it still works.   Easy trade with zero retention.    Add that plus Ferland LTIR, there is enough money available to give both EP and QHs Dubas cringeworthy contracts.    

 

Poolman i agree is a head scratcher.   Pro scouting better be right on him ... some calculators came right out where we paid him so i'm willing to wait before i say - oh sh!t for a bottom pairing guy.   For me the most risk was Garland. 

 

Yes i'd prefer to trade both players then pay them 10 x 8 and 9 x 8 which we could swing.   With a minor trade or two.    Also pretty sure that would be it for JB. 

 

Do i think it will happen?  Of course not. I still think we will see them both on the opening night roster.    The point - and it's rather simple - is JB shouldn't relent and pull a Dubas.    He might have to.  But i sure hope he doesn't, the fan resentment will start right away - on this site.   Look at BB and his deal was considered fair/good by most .... and he had a tough time living up to it, got injured, TT his massive love affair started (and continues) etc.    JB has shown he's going to back this core up all along, (which he did by trading for TT) as well as honouring MG contracts/clauses, and most of his UFAs aside from Holtby (head scratcher a little but it's who Clarke wanted) and JV buyouts.    It a minor miracle he pulled it off.   I read enough of your posts to get your not a fan of JB.   Some of his stuff i'm not or haven't been either - but willing to see it out as well.   I'm glad they aren't signed yet, because given how long it's taken, can imagine just like BB, they were way off at the start of the process. 

Can’t disagree except with OEL we shouldn’t have traded the end of some  deals for a long term deal for another older player. 
He might have gotten 7.2 but it wouldn’t have been for 6 years because that would be a dubas kinda signing. 
I don’t want to see 10-9 mill but I fully expect 7-9 and I doubt we see anything longer than 5years. 
I’m not a fan of Jb doesn’t mean I want the team to lose. Demko could be his best resigning.and I don’t blame JB 100% the mandate to win now which has been pushed since he got here has forced mistakes with long term repercussions and none of those moves have paid off. I don’t see OEL as the player he once was hopefully he can find his game here. 
we really can’t afford for him not to. 

 

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1 hour ago, combover said:

Cap future was given away when we got OEL.

cap flexibility left with Pearson and poolman 

 

Cap management has never been JB strong suit lol not that anything has.

 

these are two players we need to win these are the two corner stones of this franchise 

these aren’t the players you cheap out on and “ask” for a deal. I keep reading they have no rights as rfas so then why aren’t they signed. 
huh.

agents know Jb is a lame duck he has to win this season and to do it without EP and hughes good luck.

 

to suggest we trade the two players that are the present and future of what this team is built on is the same as saying good by to building a powerhouse and pissing of not only a large part of the fan base but also a team filled with guys coming to the end of their contracts that are sick of excuses and losing 

boeser horvat to name a few.

Besides Jb doesn’t have the required abilities to make those trades. 

it would be A PR nightmare created by lack of foresight and poor judgement (what else is new)

 
Jbs the one with no choice he’ll have to sign these players because he was almost fired last season he won’t get a phone call to say your not fired this season. 

And that’s why I still believe they will be signed before camp but I’d be surprised if we didn’t have to make some trades to clear some cap space before the season.

 

They shouldn't need to make any moves as long as they sign them before the start of the season.  

 

If they drop to a roster of 21 they have roughly 18M of cap space - keeping an extra D as it's always challenging to be one short in case of a late unavailability.  

 

Working off CapFriendly where they have Podkolzin assigned to the AHL and a roster of 24 without Pettersson/Hughes.  They show 10.7M in cap space.

 

With Podkolzin and without MacEwen, Dowling, DiGiuseppe, Bailey - ie keeping Highmore as F12 and no extra F

     also Rathbone (higher cap hit than Juolevi) and Hunt to the AHL - ie keeping Schenn as D7

= 14.5M in cap space

 

+ LTIR relief for Ferland gives some 18M (- last season they only lost 10K in LTIR relief and would expect them to get close to the max).  Should be sufficient to get them signed without any further moves and even have some additional space available.

 

If they are unsigned by the start of the season they won't be able to get full LTIR relief for Ferland without additional moves unless they can get both under 14.5M though. 

 

Toronto was in a similar situation a few years ago when they were negotiating with Marner and were at risk of losing several millions in cap space if he remained unsigned by the start of the season.  They went on to add Clarkson to ear-mark the space they had kept and not risk losing it but he ended up signing before the start of the season.

 

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15 hours ago, combover said:

Actually it was Friedman who said that was what he heard  was  comparison. 

you can devalue EP all you want the guy won the Calder is the teams best player and everyone goes nutty when he doesn’t get enough credit during the season then it’s contract time and all of a sudden everyone says he not nearly as good. 
he just off a point per game on a terrible team.


Hes a better player than Brady Tkachuk who s looking at 8x8. 


a year off don’t you mean a year playing in Swedish league in front of friends and family. 
then what you think he’ll take less next season or just demand a trade,what great look for team thats been losing for almost a decade. 
So cheap out on super star talent so we can over pay old recycled ufas and take a 6 year handcuffing contract. 
 

When you say I devalued a guy but simply stating how many games he has played and his point totals.... I have a feeling that you're the one being biased here 

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21 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

you know damn well that sitting both of them for the season isn’t an option. 

I think it is.... It sets up cap structure for the next set of contracts. 

If we want to be competitive long term like Petterson wants, he needs to make some concessions. 

He can't ask for maximum money and ask for a championship team while tying up a large chunk of the team capspace 

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27 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

you know damn well that sitting both of them for the season isn’t an option. 

It has to be an option because otherwise you are saying that once the season gets going we should just give them both a blank chq.. THAT is definitely not an option 

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16 minutes ago, CanucksJay said:

I think it is.... It sets up cap structure for the next set of contracts. 

If we want to be competitive long term like Petterson wants, he needs to make some concessions. 

He can't ask for maximum money and ask for a championship team while tying up a large chunk of the team capspace 

Except the next round of contracts all belong to guys like Bo, Boeser and Miller who are all either UFAs who simply choose to walk away after seeing management sit the teams two best young players to simply make a point or they are eligible for arbitration and offer sheets and either get paid or leave through that route.

 

I guarantee that if we sit both players for the year we will lose all of our talent over the next 3 years and have to completely restart at building our team.

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10 minutes ago, 'NucK™ said:

It has to be an option because otherwise you are saying that once the season gets going we should just give them both a blank chq.. THAT is definitely not an option 

Then the fallout from that move is has to be option as well.  Misting the playoffs in the remedial division, both players demanding a trade, and Benning losing his job 

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43 minutes ago, mll said:

 

They shouldn't need to make any moves as long as they sign them before the start of the season.  

 

If they drop to a roster of 21 they have roughly 18M of cap space - keeping an extra D as it's always challenging to be one short in case of a late unavailability.  

 

Working off CapFriendly where they have Podkolzin assigned to the AHL and a roster of 24 without Pettersson/Hughes.  They show 10.7M in cap space.

 

With Podkolzin and without MacEwen, Dowling, DiGiuseppe, Bailey - ie keeping Highmore as F12 and no extra F

     also Rathbone (higher cap hit than Juolevi) and Hunt to the AHL - ie keeping Schenn as D7

= 14.5M in cap space

 

+ LTIR relief for Ferland gives some 18M (- last season they only lost 10K in LTIR relief and would expect them to get close to the max).  Should be sufficient to get them signed without any further moves and even have some additional space available.

 

If they are unsigned by the start of the season they won't be able to get full LTIR relief for Ferland without additional moves unless they can get both under 14.5M though. 

 

Toronto was in a similar situation a few years ago when they were negotiating with Marner and were at risk of losing several millions in cap space if he remained unsigned by the start of the season.  They went on to add Clarkson but he ended up signing before the start of the season.

Yeah, haven’t really talked too much about this issue, but it does give Hughes and Pettersson a lot of leverage, if one of them were to hold out past the season opener.

 

Would make for a much more difficult LTIR planning.
 

I haven’t looked at the specific numbers, but I’m assuming they simply can’t maximize Ferland’s LTIR, with the present roster, if they don’t have both Petey and Hughes signed?

 

Would hate to see them end up in a Toronto/Marner situation (and the rest of the league knowing it) and having to scramble (and quite likely need to pay out assets to acquire another LTIR contract), just to create enough space in the reliefs pools to fit in an extension after the season starts.

 

Camp is obviously the first deadline, mostly for practicality and wanting to have all the players available for testing and training.

 

But the real hard deadline is clearly the season opener, because missing that one is a massive headache for the team, and offers a pretty big hammer for the players and their reps, should they decide to use that leverage, and weaponize the Canucks cap situation against them.

 

Hopefully it doesn’t come to that. I haven’t seen anything to suggest the negotiations are hostile. Seems like the team and agency are working together, and the numbers are pretty clear (as far as what’s available under the cap), just taking some time to get it done.

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16 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

Then the fallout from that move is has to be option as well.  Misting the playoffs in the remedial division, both players demanding a trade, and Benning losing his job 

Sure, but I don't see why you're digging so far into it.. my point is simple - them sitting the year HAS to be an option for management (even if you don't want to think about that), because the only alternative is caving to whatever their demands are, aka handing them both a blank chq

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2 hours ago, combover said:

Can’t disagree except with OEL we shouldn’t have traded the end of some  deals for a long term deal for another older player. 
He might have gotten 7.2 but it wouldn’t have been for 6 years because that would be a dubas kinda signing. 
I don’t want to see 10-9 mill but I fully expect 7-9 and I doubt we see anything longer than 5years. 
I’m not a fan of Jb doesn’t mean I want the team to lose. Demko could be his best resigning.and I don’t blame JB 100% the mandate to win now which has been pushed since he got here has forced mistakes with long term repercussions and none of those moves have paid off. I don’t see OEL as the player he once was hopefully he can find his game here. 
we really can’t afford for him not to. 

 

All this makes total sense.   

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1 hour ago, qwijibo said:

you know damn well that sitting both of them for the season isn’t an option. 

Of course it's an option.   Not a good one.   But so is signing them both to Dubas like deals.   Or even Sakic like ones, he's not far off really with Rantanen and Makar.   Second contracts, are not supposed to be monster deals.    

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There is still time. Ideally they are done before training camp. But the reality is that they have to choose between being greedy or competitive. It's no secret that high cap players haven't been a part of successful teams. They will get extra sponsorship $$ anyway. IMO Pettersson shouldn't get more than Aho who scores at a similar clip but has played many full seasons. Something Pettersson has yet to do.

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2 hours ago, CanucksJay said:

I think it is.... It sets up cap structure for the next set of contracts. 

If we want to be competitive long term like Petterson wants, he needs to make some concessions. 

He can't ask for maximum money and ask for a championship team while tying up a large chunk of the team capspace 

Agreed. I want to think his savvy agent is behind most of this "stalling" we are seeing, but it's becoming more difficult to believe. Frustrating to watch young players appear to haggle over what may be a few hundred grand a season, just get a bridge deal done.

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  • Nuxfanabroad changed the title to I'd Rather JB Play Hardball, Than Cave to These Two(Discussion/Proposals)
  • -SN- changed the title to Elias Pettersson | Quinn Hughes - Contract Discussion Thread
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