Tom Sestito (ex Canuck enforcer) implicates NHL in prescription pain killer abuse

[IBatch]

18 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I'm at a loss as to where you think we're disagreeing. I literally said he's worth taking seriously when it comes to this subject and touched on Kesler speaking about his own medication related issues because of Toradal abuse.

Lol my bad i read your post as  follows:

 

Dudes a Meathead, and NOT worth taking seriously -  (whoops!)
 

That's what my brain read Coconuts - of course after seeing your response i re-read it properly ... AND worth taking seriously, sorry my bad.  

 

So thing i took offense and wrote something that your probably were like "wow this guy is nuts!"  in response.  So my sincere apologies.   Except for the meathead crack, Tom Sestito story was he had to fight to make the NHL.   One of the last guys we've ever had that was able to crack the lineup because he was willing to add that to his game.   That shows some intelligence and willingness to do what used to be the toughest job in hockey.    Pretty sure he had to fight McGratton the last true enforcer the leagues had, during that line brawl that made Torts lose it  ... no small thing.  Deserve's some respect for doing the best he could to keep his teammates safe.  

Edited October 6, 2021 by IBatch

[King Heffy]

NHLPA needs to be hiring their own specialists to monitor this going forward.  The team doctors are in a pretty tough position as both the players and the team want them on the ice.

[IBatch]

16 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

NHLPA needs to be hiring their own specialists to monitor this going forward.  The team doctors are in a pretty tough position as both the players and the team want them on the ice.

Yes they are.   But the code they follow isn't for their employer, its for their patient.   Ones with excellent integrity would always put their patients above anything else.    That said from a business point of view, hiring Doctors that are willing to put their employer and as a fan - a cup ahead of anything else..well i'm sure it gets pretty grey fast for them. 

[DrJockitch]

There is a lot to unfold here. 
Professional sports meds docs have very interesting ethical issues. They are employees of the team but also need to be player advocates. It is a sometimes contradictory role as can be seen in Buffalo now. They also often have different standards for doing thing because of their sometime contrasting sets of goals. 
There really should be an avenue for once-ending medical reviews between the PA and NHL. 
The pain killer/pain issue is interesting. Teaching about pain control to doctors and medical students is something that has changed a lot over the last couple decades. About 15-20 years ago as the drug companies were pumping up Oxycodone as some non-addictive miracle pain pill, a lot of the teaching focused on the effects of under-treating pain and how under-treating acute pain/injury leads to chronic pain.  This led to what we see today in the opioid crisis.   This has also led to a switch back to using more NSAIDS like toradol. Now these are not addictive like Narcotics but have a huge list of potential issues. GI bleeds, atherosclerosis and most notably kidney issues. Alonzo Mourning’s kidney failure and transplant can be directly tied to his constant use of Diclofenac, a drug very similar to Toradol.  There has also recently been some linkage between the use of NSAIDS in endurance sports competition and cardiac arrests which we have also seen in NHL. 
Pro athletes and especially NHL players likely live in some degree of constant pain, just the hacks and whacks would leave most people feeling half dead. That doesn’t even get into the surgeries and injuries. These guys are very high risk for abuse of pain and sleep meds. They also travel a lot over multiple time zones so sleep is likely a big challenge. 
There is no easy solution here and the athletes also have some culpability. They are told they must and naturally are very focused on winning and improving and push themselves to extremes. If establishing better sleep patterns with pills and increasing their ability to push through injuries and pain with meds are going to help them stay in the league or win in the league they will usually do it and worry about the cost later. That is where a good doc will try to put the breaks on but may end up out of the organization for it.  There is a lot of prestige associated with being doc for one of these pro-sports teams. Most docs will have worked very hard to get there and want to keep that association. 
It is a tough, very interesting issue and one that there is no simple one solution fits all answer for. 

[EddieVedder]

4 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

There is a lot to unfold here. 
Professional sports meds docs have very interesting ethical issues. They are employees of the team but also need to be player advocates. It is a sometimes contradictory role as can be seen in Buffalo now. They also often have different standards for doing thing because of their sometime contrasting sets of goals. 
There really should be an avenue for once-ending medical reviews between the PA and NHL. 
The pain killer/pain issue is interesting. Teaching about pain control to doctors and medical students is something that has changed a lot over the last couple decades. About 15-20 years ago as the drug companies were pumping up Oxycodone as some non-addictive miracle pain pill, a lot of the teaching focused on the effects of under-treating pain and how under-treating acute pain/injury leads to chronic pain.  This led to what we see today in the opioid crisis.   This has also led to a switch back to using more NSAIDS like toradol. Now these are not addictive like Narcotics but have a huge list of potential issues. GI bleeds, atherosclerosis and most notably kidney issues. Alonzo Mourning’s kidney failure and transplant can be directly tied to his constant use of Diclofenac, a drug very similar to Toradol.  There has also recently been some linkage between the use of NSAIDS in endurance sports competition and cardiac arrests which we have also seen in NHL. 
Pro athletes and especially NHL players likely live in some degree of constant pain, just the hacks and whacks would leave most people feeling half dead. That doesn’t even get into the surgeries and injuries. These guys are very high risk for abuse of pain and sleep meds. They also travel a lot over multiple time zones so sleep is likely a big challenge. 
There is no easy solution here and the athletes also have some culpability. They are told they must and naturally are very focused on winning and improving and push themselves to extremes. If establishing better sleep patterns with pills and increasing their ability to push through injuries and pain with meds are going to help them stay in the league or win in the league they will usually do it and worry about the cost later. That is where a good doc will try to put the breaks on but may end up out of the organization for it.  There is a lot of prestige associated with being doc for one of these pro-sports teams. Most docs will have worked very hard to get there and want to keep that association. 
It is a tough, very interesting issue and one that there is no simple one solution fits all answer for. 

 

Blame the docs. 

For every 1 good doc, there are 9 that only know how to push pills. 

 

 

[Hairy Kneel]

I remember when Lack had that bad hip/groin injury. He never looked the same after that. I guess he was struggling to get back and succumbed to the meds. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Hairy Kneel

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

Anyone else having a hard time these days maintaining their hockey fandom and enthusiasm?

 

Just between this prescription drug story, the Blackhawks sexual abuse scandal, all the racism allegations of recent years, the hazing stuff that came out not too long ago, et cetera, et cetera.

 

It just feels like there’s a lot wrong with the sport and culture.

And we have a very long way to go before it gets fixed.

 

(Certainly the Canucks losing doesn’t help either, but I really think I’d still have this sick feeling inside, when it comes to hockey and the NHL, even if Vancouver was currently 9-0).

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME

[CBH1926]

12 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Anyone else having a hard time these days maintaining their hockey fandom and enthusiasm?

 

Just between this prescription drug story, the Blackhawks sexual abuse scandal, all the racism allegations of recent years, the hazing stuff that came out not too long ago, et cetera, et cetera.

 

It just feels like there’s a lot wrong with the sport and culture.

And we have a very long way to go before it gets fixed.

 

(Certainly the Canucks losing doesn’t help either, but I really think I’d still have this sick feeling inside, when it comes to hockey and the NHL, even if Vancouver was currently 9-0).

 

The problem with sports is that fans put these athletes on a pedestal.

Idolizing them and trying to find extraordinary characteristics.

 

In reality all major sports have their fair share of drug abuse, racism, sexual assaults, violence etc.

Not really different than the world that surrounds us.

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 10/4/2021 at 7:27 PM, Dazzle said:

Unfortunately, since AV has been outed by Lehner, and that AV was one of our longer-lasting coaches, I'm not surprised if the Vancouver Canucks are the one team that has been handing out drugs like Toradol and Ambien.

 

I really wonder if there's a story with Gillis too, though it seems to me that he cares about his own players.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Vancouver is definitely one of the 'bad' teams.

 

Edit: I realize now that AV did not actually employ shotblocking nearly as much as I thought.

You are aware that Toradol is not a narcotic ?

 

Toradol is not a narcotic, opioid, or controlled substance. Rather, Toradol is an NSAID and a non-habit forming alternative to treat moderate-to-severe pain

Edited November 4, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 10/4/2021 at 8:43 PM, Elias Pettersson said:

Unfortunately some of the players that would have spoken up are no longer with us.  This stuff happens in every sport.  The NFL is probably ten times worse than the NHL.  You mix the concussions which lead to the CTE and then you add the opioids which lead you to all kinds of other bad stuff and you have a recipe for disaster.

Except Toradol is not an opiate. And Ambien isn't exactly hardcore either.

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 10/4/2021 at 10:52 PM, StanleyCupOneDay said:

I’ll answer my own question: Eddie Lack is next. And yes Vancouver is going to be implicated, I hope they decide to make a change on this issue.

 

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/accusations-of-medical-malpractice-mistreatment-among-nhl-teams-not-surprising-to-former-player-1.5611177

 

It’s a striking accusation that does not come as a surprise to one former NHL player. Retired goaltender Eddie Lack recalls seeing teammates receive pills from team doctors on numerous occasions. Sometimes, Lack says, it would be for pain relief during the gruelling 82-game NHL season, and other times, it would be for help falling asleep on late night flights.

 

“Do I have the proof that Robin (Lehner) says he has? No,” Lack told CTV News. “But, do I think things like that go on with teams? Yeah. 100 per cent.”

Pills from *doctors*. Doctors being the operative word here. That is fully legal to get pills from licensed doctors. This is a trumped up story.

 

Should the Canucks revert back to pre modern medicine or something ? Toradol sounds like Tramadol. Tramadol is a rather mild opiate and Toradol isn't.

 

 

[MaxVerstappen33]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:16 PM, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Anyone else having a hard time these days maintaining their hockey fandom and enthusiasm?

 

Just between this prescription drug story,

This total non story that involved no narcotics , opiates or any habit forming drugs ?

 

Toradol is not a narcotic, opioid, or controlled substance. Rather, Toradol is an NSAID and a non-habit forming alternative to treat moderate-to-severe pain

Edited November 4, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[StanleyCupOneDay]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:16 PM, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Anyone else having a hard time these days maintaining their hockey fandom and enthusiasm?

 

Just between this prescription drug story, the Blackhawks sexual abuse scandal, all the racism allegations of recent years, the hazing stuff that came out not too long ago, et cetera, et cetera.

 

It just feels like there’s a lot wrong with the sport and culture.

And we have a very long way to go before it gets fixed.

 

(Certainly the Canucks losing doesn’t help either, but I really think I’d still have this sick feeling inside, when it comes to hockey and the NHL, even if Vancouver was currently 9-0).

 

With you on that. I’ve watched Canucks every year through the good and the awful, but until the league starts to feel financial stress no preventative action will be taken. It’s making me reassess the money I spend on supporting the team. It’s not going to change unless there’s a zero tolerance policy implemented and that anyone who knows about violations also gets canned. Cheveldayoff should have lost his job. Only then will we root out the rot currently in the NHL. Until consequences are severe enough this won’t ever stop. There’s too much incentive for a team to bury the truth when it shows them in a negative light. I can pretty much guarantee there’s more than one Kyle Beach that is yet to be known. It’s an old boys club and needs to change drastically.

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

10 hours ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

This total non story that involved no narcotics , opiates or any habit forming drugs ?

 

Toradol is not a narcotic, opioid, or controlled substance. Rather, Toradol is an NSAID and a non-habit forming alternative to treat moderate-to-severe pain

Toradol is intended for short term use, usually for five days or less.

 

Like a lot of strong NSAIDs, it can be hell on your digestive system. If taken long term, or at too high dosages, it can result in stomach and/or intestinal bleeding and long term gastrointestinal issues, as well as kidney and heart problems, and a bunch of other side effects.

No team should be handing out full bottles of Toradol to their players, which is reportedly what was happening.

 

Even though it’s not “addictive,” Sestito ended up dependent (and other players have reported similar experiences), in that he was using copious amounts of the drug nearly every day (certainly for games and training days), and over a long period of time, to manage his pain.

 

It was handed out freely, and with little or no monitoring, and referred to as “Vitamin T.”

 

Ryan Kesler has also supported these claims. 
 

And Kesler now has serious gastrointestinal issues that he attributes to his own Toradol abuse, resulting from the drug being handed out freely by team staff, in large amounts, which directly led to its misuse by players.

 

Kesler’s doctors say that he now has colitis and Crohn’s, as a result of his overuse of Toradol during his playing career.

 

And beyond Toradol, Sestito also claims he was given large amounts of Ambien, which is certainly addictive. And other players have also spoken to similar widespread availability of Z-drugs and benzodiazepines, which can be highly addictive, and result in dependence, as well as other serious side effects, if misused or used habitually over the long term.

 

None of these medications should be handed out like “vitamins” or candy. Players shouldn’t be given bottles of the stuff, to use “as needed.” In general, these are all drugs that are intended for short term use, and dosages and usage should be strictly monitored by doctors. Also, players should have been informed of any potential side effects. Not just handed a bottle full of pills, with no idea of the actual health risks involved.

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

Toradol is intended for short term use, usually for five days or less.

 

Like a lot of strong NSAIDs, it can be hell on your digestive system. If taken long term, or at too high dosages, it can result in stomach and/or intestinal bleeding and long term gastrointestinal issues, as well as kidney and heart problems, and a bunch of other side effects.

No team should be handing out full bottles of Toradol to their players, which is reportedly what was happening.

 

Even though it’s not “addictive,” Sestito ended up dependent (and other players have reported similar experiences), in that he was using copious amounts of the drug nearly every day (certainly for games and training days), and over a long period of time, to manage his pain.

 

It was handed out freely, and with little or no monitoring, and referred to as “Vitamin T.”

 

Ryan Kesler has also supported these claims. 
 

And Kesler now has serious gastrointestinal issues that he attributes to his own Toradol abuse,

This is all trumped up crap. The main reason Taradol is used so much is because they aren't allowed using opiate based pain killers at all. Even though opiate derived pain killers are less damaging to the liver than high doses of acetaminophen and have less side effects to the body than stuff like Taradol. This unsafe and over use of acetaminophen and Taradol is a direct side effect of the ban on opiates.

 

“physicians have reduced opioid prescribing by more than 44% since 2012,” -https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2021/7/28/22597967/opioid-epidemic-pain-management-war-drugs-jacob-sullum

 

And by the way, what do we have to show for the war on opiates ? Well, perscriptions have been falling for over 10 years and we have record deaths in 2020

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

11 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

This is all trumped up crap. The main reason Taradol is used so much is because they aren't allowed using opiate based pain killers at all. Even though opiate derived pain killers are less damaging to the liver than high doses of acetaminophen and have less side effects to the body than stuff like Taradol. This unsafe and over use of acetaminophen and Taradol is a direct side effect of the ban on opiates.

 

“physicians have reduced opioid prescribing by more than 44% since 2012,” -https://chicago.suntimes.com/columnists/2021/7/28/22597967/opioid-epidemic-pain-management-war-drugs-jacob-sullum

 

And by the way, what do we have to show for the war on opiates ? Well, perscriptions have been falling for over 10 years and we have record deaths in 2020

 

I’m not sure your argument is with me.

 

When it comes to the opioid issue, I really have no argument with you, and haven’t posted anything in this thread to suggest otherwise.

 

I actually think the policies brought in by CPSBC were reactionary and overreach, and initially did more harm than good, by limiting doctors’ ability to responsibly prescribe narcotics to patients who actually need them.

 

Thankfully, CPSBC backed off from their initial guidelines, as did other similar agencies in other jurisdictions, but the effect remains, and many doctors are now overly fearful, and won’t prescribe opioids, even in many situations where they are still the best and safest choice.

 

Of course, there was an issue years ago with opioid overprescribing, but the response was far too heavy handed, driven by populism rather than science. It was too much of a blanket approach, and the wrong experts were consulted (many of these reports were authored by addition specialists rather than pain specialists). The result was that, rather than targeting the true bad actors, and also re-educating prescribers (especially general practitioners), an overall “opioids bad” policy was forced on prescribers, and their livelihoods were threatened if they didn’t immediately conform to the regulations (even for pain management specialists with many patients for whom opioids were a lifeline, and who had been on stable doses of these drugs, without any issues).

 

And I agree that the real issue with opioids remains street usage, illegal supplies of pharmaceuticals (especially Fentanyl), and the diversion/sale of prescriptions. 
 

Of course, lax prescribing guidelines, and drug company misinformation (as to downplaying or outright denial of addiction risks) were a significant factor in creating the epidemic, getting people (who didn’t really need them) hooked on opioids, which eventually led them to the illegal drug market, when they got cut off from their legal sources. 

My issue with the Sestito story (and those of the other players with similar, supporting accounts), is that it’s hugely irresponsible for training and medical staffs to be handing out prescriptions drugs in the manners described.

 

It’s fine to question these accounts, and be suspicious of what these players have reported. But if we take them at face value, I can’t see how anyone would think what’s been described was okay. Or that the seriousness of the issue is “trumped up.”

 

Sestito describes being handed an entire bottle of Toradol, without a prescription. And also being given a daily Ambien supply, by team staff, for two and a half years.
 

That’s messed up, if true, and I really don’t see any reason to doubt his account.

 

Kesler has reported that his overuse of team supplied Toradol led to significant health issues after hockey:

 

According to his doctors, Kesler’s overuse of Toradol led to colitis, which causes inflammation of the inner lining of the colon. 

“It ate holes in my colon,” he says. “I wasn’t made aware of what this drug could potentially do to me.”

Eventually, Kesler was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease. One of the key risk factors for Crohn’s disease is the use of nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications, of which Toradol is one. 

This has had a serious impact on Kesler’s day-to-day life after hockey. His medical treatments to keep his Crohn’s disease in check also have significant side effects, but at least he’s aware of those side effects this time around.

 

https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/former-canuck-ryan-kesler-opens-up-about-the-problem-of-painkillers-in-tsn-report-2740341
 

And similarly, many other players have reported that there was widespread availability of Z-Drugs (sleeping pills like Ambien) and benzodiazepines, through team sources, sometimes given out without a prescription. And even when legally prescribed, daily use of Z-Drugs or benzodiazepines, for periods of years, without much in the way of monitoring, definitely goes against standard of practice.

 

What’s been reported is, at the very least, highly concerning, irresponsible, and unethical. In some cases, if true as reported, it would be criminal. And there’s no doubt that several players have suffered serious negative health effects, some long term, due to the negligent actions of team staff members who should be protecting the health and safety of their players.

[MaxVerstappen33]

6 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I’m not sure your argument is with me.

 

When it comes to the opioid issue, I really have no argument with you, and haven’t posted anything in this thread to suggest otherwise.

 

 

 

What’s been reported is, at the very least, highly concerning, irresponsible, and unethical. In some cases, if true as reported, it would be criminal. And there’s no doubt that several players have suffered serious negative health effects, some long term, due to the negligent actions of team staff members who should be protecting the health and safety of their players.

There isn't enough evidence or context here to make statements like the bolded IMO. I really don't believe that the Cancucks organization had a big drugs free for all.  All of these players have big insurance deals and everything about their health is taken as a serious matter. There are counterparties like the insurance company who would not allow this. We don't know if kesler was really over prescribed or not. For all we know, some law firm might be gathering up a group of players for a lawsuit.

 

I just know for a fact that high doses of acetaminophen and nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs are the new replacement for opiates. It all comes back to the war on opiates. And these drugs are hard on the body.