[Extension] Panthers Barkov 8 years x $10M AAV

[Guest]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

Too bad him and his agent prolly wont look at anything signed in the state of Florida as comparable since it's literally like 1-2mil higher take home than most cities if he were to sign that in vancouver that's close to 1.5mil less net after tax per year. 12 mil over the course of the contract 

I think that someone did the calculations.  You end up paying a share of the taxes across all the states/provinces where you play, so in the end it ends up being something closer to a 5% difference between Florida and the rest.  

 

I've always hated the inherent advantage that it gives the lower taxed states. 

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

How many teams with even one 10 million dollar player have won the Cup?  Now the Panthers have two.  

NONE...

[JM_]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup.  Barkov is a much better player than MM.  Leafs have a totally messed up cap.  Panthers have Barkov as their top paid skater at 10.  That Goalie Bob number (10) is ugly though. 

Bobs is a buyout for sure, maybe as early as next year.

[wai_lai416]

48 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

NONE...

lol there's a few players won the cup equivalent to being a 10mil player today.. barkov is taking 12% of the cap.. Malkin won the cup eating up 13% of the cap crosby was eating up 12% of the cap.. this is a dumb comparision.. might as well say well there was no 10mil players back in the early 2000.. there are plenty of team that won the cup with players eating up 12-13% of the cap

[Elias Pettersson]

26 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol there's a few players won the cup equivalent to being a 10mil player today.. barkov is taking 12% of the cap.. Malkin won the cup eating up 13% of the cap crosby was eating up 12% of the cap.. this is a dumb comparision.. might as well say well there was no 10mil players back in the early 2000.. there are plenty of team that won the cup with players eating up 12-13% of the cap

The salary cap didn't start until the 2005 season so any salary before that is irrelevant.  In terms of salaries after 2005 you mentioned 2 of only 3 players who took up over 12% of the cap.  The 3rd player was Alex Ovechkin.  

 

So yeah there have been a handful of guys who have eaten up over 12% of the cap and their team won a cup, but we are talking about the superstars of the league.  Barkov isn't Alex Ovechkin or Sidney Crosby.  Like not even close.  McDavid is the only player in the NHL currently who is at their level.  And it's virtually impossible to surround McDavid with enough talent to compete for a cup.

[Kootenay Gold]

12 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Right on!

 

I hate winter. Another life goal is to go 1 year without snow.

Move to Southern Cali. You might be able to go a full year without either rain or snow

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The salary cap didn't start until the 2005 season so any salary before that is irrelevant.  In terms of salaries after 2005 you mentioned 2 of only 3 players who took up over 12% of the cap.  The 3rd player was Alex Ovechkin.  

 

So yeah there have been a handful of guys who have eaten up over 12% of the cap and their team won a cup, but we are talking about the superstars of the league.  Barkov isn't Alex Ovechkin or Sidney Crosby.  Like not even close.  McDavid is the only player in the NHL currently who is at their level.  And it's virtually impossible to surround McDavid with enough talent to compete for a cup.

lidstrom is also over? kucherov is sitting at 11.6% of the cap too?  so basically pittsburgh did it like 3 times washington won it tampa did it twice detroit also done it.. plenty of example. 

 

it have nothing to do with there isn't enough cap to surround mcdavid with enough talents most competing teams spend like 6-8mil TOTAL on their bottom 6 and just 2-3mil on their bottom 2 defense.. it's just edmonton haven't drafted well and have no prospect stepping in on their ELC nor have any player exceeding their contract like most cup winners. 

 

Florida despite having the anchor contract in bobrovsky at least they have couple ppl like spencer knight and huderbeau well exceeding their contract.so they can afford to pay their star players

[Chris12345]

1 hour ago, Kootenay Gold said:

Move to Southern Cali. You might be able to go a full year without either rain or snow

That wohld be awesome!!!!!

 

Without wild fires of course!

[Elias Pettersson]

1 hour ago, wai_lai416 said:

lidstrom is also over? kucherov is sitting at 11.6% of the cap too?  so basically pittsburgh did it like 3 times washington won it tampa did it twice detroit also done it.. plenty of example. 

 

it have nothing to do with there isn't enough cap to surround mcdavid with enough talents most competing teams spend like 6-8mil TOTAL on their bottom 6 and just 2-3mil on their bottom 2 defense.. it's just edmonton haven't drafted well and have no prospect stepping in on their ELC nor have any player exceeding their contract like most cup winners. 

 

Florida despite having the anchor contract in bobrovsky at least they have couple ppl like spencer knight and huderbeau well exceeding their contract.so they can afford to pay their star players

Tampa Bay circumvented the cap by placing Kucherov on LTIR for the entire regular season.  They only activated him during the playoffs when his salary didn't count towards the cap.  Do you think they would have won the cup if the salary cap was still in place during the playoffs and Kucherov wasn't allowed to play?  I think the answer would have been no.

 

Lidstrom won his 6th Norris Trophy in 2007-2008 when Detroit won the cup.  He got 70 points and was a +40.  It was his greatest season ever.  He was arguably one of the greatest defencemen of all time.  Barkov is no Lidstrom.

 

These 10 million+ salaries only work if those players are superstars, like some of the greatest players in the history of the game.  Or you circumvent the salary cap.  Those are the only 2 ways it's gonna work.  Paying guys like Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Barkov, Bobrovsky $10 million+ is not going to allow these teams to build a Stanley Cup champion.

 

There is no way Florida is winning a cup with Barkov, Bobrovsky and Ekblad making $27.5 million.  They are not superstars.  They are not even the best players at their positions.  They are not even in the top 5 players at their positions.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Elias Pettersson

[khay]

7 hours ago, DeNiro said:

I think the comparables for stars are there now.

 

Players like McDavid and Matthews are in their own tier making 11-13 mil.

 

On the next tier if you’re a 80-90 point player 10 mil seems to be the going salary.

 

Good chance Petey lands in the 9-10 mil range when his contracts up.

Don't agree with this.

 

Barkov is not just a 90 point player. He's a 90 point player that wins Selke. He's basically in the same tier with Matthews.

 

10 mil for Barkov in Florida is essentially around 11 mil in Canada, i.e., what Matthews makes.

 

McDavid is in a tier on his own. I don't think one-dimensional player like Matthews belongs in the same tier as McDavid, at least not yet.

 

 

[wai_lai416]

37 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Tampa Bay circumvented the cap by placing Kucherov on LTIR for the entire regular season.  They only activated him during the playoffs when his salary didn't count towards the cap.  Do you think they would have won the cup if the salary cap was still in place during the playoffs and Kucherov wasn't allowed to play?  I think the answer would have been no.

 

Lidstrom won his 6th Norris Trophy in 2007-2008 when Detroit won the cup.  He got 70 points and was a +40.  It was his greatest season ever.  He was arguably one of the greatest defencemen of all time.  Barkov is no Lidstrom.

 

These 10 million+ salaries only work if those players are superstars, like some of the greatest players in the history of the game.  Or you circumvent the salary cap.  Those are the only 2 ways it's gonna work.  Paying guys like Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Barkov, Bobrovsky $10 million+ is not going to allow these teams to build a Stanley Cup champion.

 

There is no way Florida is winning a cup with Barkov, Bobrovsky and Ekblad making $27.5 million.  They are not superstars.  They are not even the best players at their positions.  They are not even in the top 5 players at their positions.

did they circumvented the cap too in their first cup? lol barkov is not even a superstar?? are u a joke? the reining selke winner and over a ppg guy is not a superstar in this league? lmao

[Elias Pettersson]

19 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

did they circumvented the cap too in their first cup? lol barkov is not even a superstar?? are u a joke? the reining selke winner and over a ppg guy is not a superstar in this league? lmao

Tampa didn't have a cap issue in 2019-2020 because they still had Vasilevskiy on a cheap contract and Cernak, Sergachev and Cirelli were all on cheap ELC contracts.  Those 4 players combined were making under $6 million in 2019-2020.  In 2020-2021 they had to reup all of them and their combined contracts totaled over $22 million.  So the only way they could fit them under the cap was to place Kucherov on LTIR and legally circumvent the cap.  They did the same thing this year by trading for Brent Seabrook.  They are currently just under $7 million over the cap and will start the year with an $88 million payroll.

 

Barkov is a very good player.  Just because he won the Selke doesn't make him a superstar.  Was Ryan Kesler a superstar?  Sean Couturier?  Ryan O'Reilly?  Being the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't necessarily make you a superstar.  I don't recall Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby and Ovechkin ever winning that award.  Kris Draper and Michael Peca won the Selke.  Were they  superstars? 

 

Call me when Barkov wins the Hart or the Art Ross like Henrik Sedin and then we can have a chat.  Barkov PPG is .87.  Petey's is .93.  If we are paying guys $10 million to get 80-85 points then the Canucks better load up on cap space in 3 years because Petey is gonna want $11 million+.

[UKNuck96]

15 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Right on!

 

I hate winter. Another life goal is to go 1 year without snow.

Come to the UK you can be cold wet and miserable but without the snow, and a lot more concrete 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Consistent 20-35 goal scoring, point-per-game producing, big strong physical center who's good at faceoffs and very strong defensively, absolutely worth 10M a year. Looking at Pettersson, I don't think he's as good defensively and certainly not physically or at faceoffs, and hasn't produced at a PPG yet really as consistently as Barkov. Barkov dropped that big season as well almost hitting 100 points too.

 

If Petey can play to that level, he deserves 10M but he doesn't have all the qualities that Barkov has.

[wai_lai416]

28 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Tampa didn't have a cap issue in 2019-2020 because they still had Vasilevskiy on a cheap contract and Cernak, Sergachev and Cirelli were all on cheap ELC contracts.  Those 4 players combined were making under $6 million in 2019-2020.  In 2020-2021 they had to reup all of them and their combined contracts totaled over $22 million.  So the only way they could fit them under the cap was to place Kucherov on LTIR and legally circumvent the cap.  They did the same thing this year by trading for Brent Seabrook.  They are currently just under $7 million over the cap and will start the year with an $88 million payroll.

 

Barkov is a very good player.  Just because he won the Selke doesn't make him a superstar.  Was Ryan Kesler a superstar?  Sean Couturier?  Ryan O'Reilly?  Being the best defensive forward in the NHL doesn't necessarily make you a superstar.  I don't recall Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby and Ovechkin ever winning that award.  Kris Draper and Michael Peca won the Selke.  Were they  superstars? 

 

Call me when Barkov wins the Hart or the Art Ross like Henrik Sedin and then we can have a chat.  Barkov PPG is .87.  Petey's is .93.  If we are paying guys $10 million to get 80-85 points then the Canucks better load up on cap space in 3 years because Petey is gonna want $11 million+.

lol we are not talking about cap issue or not? we are talking about paying a guy 10mil. who cares what the other guys are making? 

 

lol i guess by that standard no one in this league will ever be a superstar in this league other than McDavid? lol Barkov since his ELC is over a ppg.. he scored 346 poitns in 338 games over his last 5 season. like do you even look at his stats? paying 10mil for a guy 80-85 points? he was on pace for 95 points this season and hit 96 in last full 82 game season in the league?

 

funny you mentioned all those players winning the selke and were they superstars.. none of those guys were putting up 95+ point pace wining the selke? so by ur standard datysuk is not a superstar in this league either since he never won a hart nor art ross. he's only voted one of the greatest top 100 player of all time.

 

last i checked there's 2 sides to hockey. offense and defense. i guess you can't have defensive superstar in this league coz those guys will never win art ross nor hart trophies.. so none of the defensemen will ever be classified as a superstar unless they outscore mcdavid

[Elias Pettersson]

4 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol we are not talking about cap issue or not? we are talking about paying a guy 10mil. who cares what the other guys are making? 

 

lol i guess by that standard no one in this league will ever be a superstar in this league other than McDavid? lol Barkov since his ELC is over a ppg.. he scored 346 poitns in 338 games over his last 5 season. like do you even look at his stats? paying 10mil for a guy 80-85 points? he was on pace for 95 points this season and hit 96 in last full 82 game season in the league?

 

funny you mentioned all those players winning the selke and were they superstars.. none of those guys were putting up 95+ point pace wining the selke? so by ur standard datysuk is not a superstar in this league either since he never won a hart nor art ross. he's only voted one of the greatest top 100 player of all time.

 

last i checked there's 2 sides to hockey. offense and defense. i guess you can't have defensive superstar in this league coz those guys will never win art ross nor hart trophies.. so none of the defensemen will ever be classified as a superstar unless they outscore mcdavid

It matters what the other guys are making because that determines how much cap you have to afford a $10 million player.  Obviously the only way Tampa could fit Kucherov under the cap last year was to put him on LTIR for the entire year.  You do realize that without doing that they would have had to trade $9.5 million in assets and that would have screwed up their bid to win another cup right?  Without putting Kucherov on LTIR Tampa has to make several trades to key players.  We all thought that would happen and then we find out Kuvcherov is done for the entire year until the playoffs started, so problem solved.

 

Barkov is only over a PPG since his ELC because of one season out of 5.  Since his ELC he has only averaged over a PPG in 2 of his 5 seasons.  His 96 point season is an outlier right now.  You take away that one season and his PPG is less than 80 points in 4 years.

 

Again you are comparing Barkov to a legend in Datsyuk who won the Selke 3 years in a row, only 2 players have won it more.  Let's see what Barkov does the next few years.  But regardless of what he does the main point here is not whether Barkov is a superstar or not.  The main point is that Florida will not win a cup with 2 players making $10 million.  

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol we are not talking about cap issue or not? we are talking about paying a guy 10mil. who cares what the other guys are making? 

 

lol i guess by that standard no one in this league will ever be a superstar in this league other than McDavid? lol Barkov since his ELC is over a ppg.. he scored 346 poitns in 338 games over his last 5 season. like do you even look at his stats? paying 10mil for a guy 80-85 points? he was on pace for 95 points this season and hit 96 in last full 82 game season in the league?

 

funny you mentioned all those players winning the selke and were they superstars.. none of those guys were putting up 95+ point pace wining the selke? so by ur standard datysuk is not a superstar in this league either since he never won a hart nor art ross. he's only voted one of the greatest top 100 player of all time.

 

last i checked there's 2 sides to hockey. offense and defense. i guess you can't have defensive superstar in this league coz those guys will never win art ross nor hart trophies.. so none of the defensemen will ever be classified as a superstar unless they outscore mcdavid

The definition of a super star is laid out very well by certain media sources.   THN for example, refers to a superstar as a player that is regularly a first line all-star, or a top 1-3 in their position.   Basically perrenial first and second line all-stars.   There can only be a handful in the league at any one time.   Barkov is close, but not quite top tier.   That said wouldn't surprise me if gets there either...Only Datsyuk and Federov won Selke's and produced the same way as Barkov has recently ... guys only 26... 27-34 is a long time though and this contract  could become a bad anchor for them later.   It's not terrible ... and on the open market he'd likely get more.    His take home pay is better then EK/Doughty and AM.   And i'm pretty sure he'd be getting Tavares type money on a seven year deal if he did got to free agency.    Barkov is a better player then EP right now, i feel that is where some of the concern is coming from.   If Barkov gets this deal....what does that mean for us if EP gets more in a couple years? 

Edited October 9, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

It matters what the other guys are making because that determines how much cap you have to afford a $10 million player.  Obviously the only way Tampa could fit Kucherov under the cap last year was to put him on LTIR for the entire year.  You do realize that without doing that they would have had to trade $9.5 million in assets and that would have screwed up their bid to win another cup right?  Without putting Kucherov on LTIR Tampa has to make several trades to key players.  We all thought that would happen and then we find out Kuvcherov is done for the entire year until the playoffs started, so problem solved.

 

Barkov is only over a PPG since his ELC because of one season out of 5.  Since his ELC he has only averaged over a PPG in 2 of his 5 seasons.  His 96 point season is an outlier right now.  You take away that one season and his PPG is less than 80 points in 4 years.

 

Again you are comparing Barkov to a legend in Datsyuk who won the Selke 3 years in a row, only 2 players have won it more.  Let's see what Barkov does the next few years.  But regardless of what he does the main point here is not whether Barkov is a superstar or not.  The main point is that Florida will not win a cup with 2 players making $10 million.  

I concur this will make it very difficult for them.    Bobrovsky needs a bounce back season after his bounce back season that puts him back on or near the top to earn that deal.   Barkov's deal won't affect them this season, but wow it sure will the following one. 

[Chris12345]

7 hours ago, UKNuck96 said:

Come to the UK you can be cold wet and miserable but without the snow, and a lot more concrete 

Do they have scotch?

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

The definition of a super star is laid out very well by certain media sources.   THN for example, refers to a superstar as a player that is regularly a first line all-star, or a top 1-3 in their position.   Basically perrenial first and second line all-stars.   There can only be a handful in the league at any one time.   Barkov is close, but not quite top tier.   That said wouldn't surprise me if gets there either...Only Datsyuk and Federov won Selke's and produced the same way as Barkov has recently ... guys only 26... 27-34 is a long time though and this contract  could become a bad anchor for them later.   It's not terrible ... and on the open market he'd likely get more.    His take home pay is better then EK/Doughty and AM.   And i'm pretty sure he'd be getting Tavares type money on a seven year deal if he did got to free agency.    Barkov is a better player then EP right now, i feel that is where some of the concern is coming from.   If Barkov gets this deal....what does that mean for us if EP gets more in a couple years? 

Great points my friend. No one is disputing that Barkov is a great player. But like you said he hasn’t reached superstar status yet. Maybe he does. Maybe he doesn’t. 
 

The main point here is the bar has now been set for Petey. His next contract will be north of $10 million unless something crazy happens. And I’m okay with it as long as the cap goes up. Benning just has to make sure that he manages all the other contracts. We don’t want to end up like Toronto.
 

With Petey at $10 million+ that probably means we need to trade Miller for a younger cheaper prospect. It also means we need to lock up Boeser to an 8 year deal next summer before the market goes even higher. At this point Boeser at 8x8 is a very good contract if he is at 35+ goals.