Are the Canucks elite in terms of converting draft picks into long term roster players?

[Patel Bure]

59 minutes ago, RU SERIOUS said:

I count only 5 so No, Uncle Jim is certainly not "a Star" drafter! (actually below average)

I didn’t say that Benning drafted Horvat.  I have prefaced that several times now.  What I did say however, is that the Benning regime was responsible for developing Horvat (ie starting him out on the bottom 6 when he graduated to the NHL, continuing to insulate and protect his development even after a moderately impressive 2015 playoffs).

 

Drafting AND developing talent.  Converting picks into actual roster players.

[spook007]

6 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Those high price, ineffective veterans actually blocked young players from roster spots.

 

Virtanen, Gaudette, and Tryamkin were all botched to varying degrees in their development by the Canucks.

 

They rushed Virtanen and as the years went by they did next to nothing to put him in a position that would minimize his weaknesses and maximize his strengths. He bears responsibility for a lot of it but he is in the KHL and has significantly reported character problems. The Canucks ignored that for a long time which didn’t help him.

 

Gaudette was never a good fit as a 3rd line defensive center but the Canucks tried to shoehorn him into that role rather than put him with offensive players to better suit his style and strengths. He was massively mismanaged by Canucks player development.

 

The Canucks punished Tryamkin, held him back, and tried to force him to be Pronger ffs. Then they basically told him to F off when he wanted to come back. He would sure look good now wouldn’t he?

 

The Canucks are among the worst teams in the NHL at developing anything other than sure thing players.

Thats some statement... where have you heard that, or is it because they didn't let Tryamkin write his own check?

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

 

did u decided to skip drouin pacquette nemestikov palat and probably a whole bunch more just to make it look like Vancouver is anywhere even close?

I didn’t skip those guys.  And no - there wasn’t “probably a whole lot more” as I checked.  I didn’t mention those guys because I’m talking about players that were drafted and are still with their original teams.  
 

ps - if I was mentioning those guys, then I’d also mention Tryamkin, Gaudette, Virtanen, and Hutton (yes, Hutton wasn’t drafted by Benning but his regime was largely responsible for his development).

 

Also - those Tampa players that you mentioned - were they all “drafted and developed” by the same GM?

 

Perhaps I could have phrased it better but those thread should really be about Vancouver vs Colorado vs Tampa, while excluding individual GM’s.

[IBatch]

27 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I didn’t skip those guys.  And no - there wasn’t “probably a whole lot more” as I checked.  I didn’t mention those guys because I’m talking about players that were drafted and are still with their original teams.  
 

ps - if I was mentioning those guys, then I’d also mention Tryamkin, Gaudette, Virtanen, and Hutton (yes, Hutton wasn’t drafted by Benning but his regime was largely responsible for his development).

 

Also - those Tampa players that you mentioned - were they all “drafted and developed” by the same GM?

 

Perhaps I could have phrased it better but those thread should really be about Vancouver vs Colorado vs Tampa, while excluding individual GM’s.

Wouldn't take it personally, just pulled in the usual anti-Benning crowd, ones that can't see the forest for the trees in this one area that really is pretty easy to challenge against - what they really are trying to say is "JB is a terrible drafter too"...sort of thing.    Pretty hilarious.   One article i particularly enjoyed reading, was about the best first round draft picks by position the last decade (2010-2019) ....  Horvat, EP, BB all won honours and QHs was given an honourable mention just too early to crown him the winner.    No other team had 3.   We almost had 4.  

 

I could do it a dozen different ways.   I do feel that some folks just overrate picks, and it's tough when you lose a player you really liked - for me recently it was Gadjovich.    JB overall quantity is par for the course, a little above average (don't forget Forlsing), he's had three home runs, BB, EP and Demko ... Hogs is at least a triple and maybe he can steal home still.   Anti-Benning will argue that BB and maybe even Demko were obvious picks which is total BS, he still took them, and as you know each draft, those into it, have their favourites and highly doubt either guy was the majority pick.    EP was a home run for two reasons.   One, his aggregate ranking was 9-12.   Not many had him at 5 ahead of Glass and others.    I personally wanted either Glass or Valardi.  Second he's 1-2 in a re-draft...most have him 1.     Quin Hughes went around where he was supposed to as well.   He didn't "slip" to us, i wanted Bouchard, and was supposed to go 6 so was happy we could get him.   Edmonton didn't even have a Bouchard shirt ready at ten lol .... that draft he "fell on their lap" based on the hype.    Looks like JB was right to say "that was a home run" so far too.    Got lucky maybe, but he still picked him over Dobson/Bouchard...RHD we needed so bad ... but BPA so far is undeniable. 

 

Off ice issues ruined JV's chance not to be a bust by reaching the 400 game threshold scouts use for these sort of things.    That's the par threshold for a 6th, anymore is gravy.    Having six guys that in a re-draft would go much higher is pretty awesome stuff.    Could be seven and hopefully will be with Podz.   So far he's moved up, both NHL.com and THN consider him as a possible for the Calder IF he gets top six minutes.   I see him as our possible Russian Brady Tkchuck, if that happens, and Hogs plus Rathbone make it we will be in fine shape. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

 

Don't forget CAR....maybe Florida too. 

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

With Tryamkin, the money didn’t work for BENNING due to his many bad contracts for veterans. Tryamkin’s ask was pretty low according to his agent. And Benning agreed to it but only if Tryamkin would wait until he could dump some cap. Can’t really blame him for not wanting to wait. Benning had him do that the year before iirc and he ended up almost not getting a KHL deal. He signed a 2 year deal in the KHL as a result and for one reason. It would take him right to UFA status. Benning burned that bridge for no reason really and Tryamkin said ok if you don’t want me I am not going through this as an rfa next year. I may as well wait and sign somewhere else that actually values me.

 

With Gaudette, his offensive skill was more than enough to suggest a fit on a scoring line. Only Benning and Green think top 6 players have to be great defensively to play in the top 6. Guys like Patrick Kane would be working at McDonalds now if that was actually true. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole with Gaudette devalued him to the point all they could get was a healthy scratch player, who then immediately got played the rest of the year in the top 6 having not earned it or subsequently done anything with it. I never saw anything to suggest Gaudette said he didn’t like playing the wing. Maybe you have a quote?

Adam Gaudette was sheltered, and given every chance to succeed.   Go back and look how many games he played the first year ... they never gave up on him and we're rewarded the following one.    Our lineup was created to push the young players and not gift spots.   Nothing wrong with that, it makes better hockey players.    Who knows what happened exactly,  Gaudette and JV were given every chance to make the show.    Their lack of offense last year and EP going down was all we needed to make the playoffs. Only Sutter scored some goals for us it was pathetic really.     He's lucky to have another go at it.    

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

What in the team results makes you feel they have taken steps toward success every year? Benning just spent an off-season purging all the bad contracts he signed. 

Well personally, i thought the team took a big step post Sedin 1.   They were gone, but we added Miller and a legitimate top four RHD (finally!) ... the results were there right away.   Just watching the Canucks was more fun that year.   Sure BB went down ... and TT and covid came in but you could tell the team was on the upswing.   

 

Personally think the impact OEL is going to have on the team will be greater then the impact Miller gave our top line.   Purging the bad contracts cost is a first - so we can add both OEL and Miller to the list of players JB has acquired using his picks - essentially it was his pick and more.   One of the best hockey trades i've see this club make in a long time (multiplayer trade).    Really long.    Nobody would have accepted that trade on this forum, picked it apart and called it a huge underpayment.    Couldn't imagine what that call must have been like given the ask last year was Demko plus.    

 

JV, McAan, BB, OJ, EP, QHs, Miller, OEL essentially are JB first round picks, well add Garland to it as well lol.    Don't understand why anyone would need to spell it out.    OEL at 7.5 .... could be worth the first all on its own without the cap savings in the end if he plays 25 top pairing minutes like he has so far.    JB surprised me this off season, for sure his best one yet. 

 

We are supposed to end up with 86-89 points, experts aren't as bullish as they were after the bubble, but as our fearless leader Aquaman said,  progress isn't always linear, if we did well last season this trade wouldn't have been possible.   To me it's a pivot point.   And will likely be looked back as exactly that.   This year playoffs will be the target.   

[Phat Fingers]

11 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Are the Canucks elite in terms of converting draft picks into long term roster players?

 

While it’s likely a valid criticism that the Vancouver Canucks have bled picks during Benning’s tenure, the question is, “to what extent has these bled picks actually hindered us?”  Based on my research, and in comparison to both Tampa Bay and Colorado (two teams that are generally highly regarded as having drafted and developed prospects at an elite level), I think the Canucks have actually done quite well.  They appear to have outperformed Colorado (who were more reliant on first rounders during their rebuild), and appear to be on par with Tampa Bay during their rebuilding years.

 

In terms of converting draft picks into current full-time NHL players that currently play for the team that drafted them, the Canucks seem to be superior to Colorado, and appear to be on par with Tampa Bay:

 

Canucks = 8 picks converted into roster players from 2013-2019.  7 seasons.

2013: Horvat
2014: Demko
2015: Boeser
2017: Pettersson + Rathbone
2018: Hughes
2019: Podkolzin + Hoglander

 

Tampa = 8 picks converted into current roster players from 2007-2015 (9 seasons)

 

2015:  Anthony Cirelli (3rd round)
2014: Brayden Point (3rd round)
2012: Andrei Vasilevsky 
2011:  Nikita Kucherov + Ondrej Palat
2009: Victor Hedman
2008: Steven Stamkos
2007: Alex Killorn

 

Avalanche = 8 picks converted into current roster players from 2011-2019.

 

2019:  Bowen Byram + Alex Newhook (possibly)

2017:  Cale Makar + Conor Timmins

2016:  Tyson Jost

2015:  Mikko Rantanen

2013:  Nathan Mackinnon

2011:  Gabriel Landeskog
 

Although Horvat wasn’t drafted by Benning, he was developed under this management regime.  Although it’s premature, I would also argue that Klimovich would *already* be selected in the first round in a 2021 redraft (and yes, I’m admitting that it’s *way* too early to do a redraft projection here.....but still).

 

Anyways, please let me know if you see anything missing from my analysis, or if you see any faux pas.

One thing, until we win a cup then both TB and the lanche, we cannot be superior.  
 

but the drafting misses are dwarfed by the hits.  
 

Had to add the players that are playing elsewhere.  They are still drafting successes.  Whether it was good asset management to move them, that’s a different question.  
 

don’t know where we rank that way, 

 

still we need some wins,  what some forget is that OJ was played off the roster by a fourth rounder.  Does that mean JB sucked or is better than we thought?  
 

Rathbone gets drafted where next time.  Heck let’s do that for all the guys.  Where does Podz get picked?  Hogz?  Ep40, Hughes, Demko, Brock.   
 

the Miller trade was a great move, same with the OEL deal.  

Having the team in Abby will likely mean more players shift into the line up.   It will be nice to see what the future holds. 
 

Hope Woo turns out good.  It would be an indication that whatever mistakes were made with JV and OJ, that things were learned.  JB seems to learn from his mistakes, never prefect, but has he improved the state of the franchise? Has anyone been able do better with similar circumstances.  
 

BTw, the east is driving up salaries, and tax free.  That’s a real problem moving forward where tax free states or jurisdictions give an unfair advantage to those clubs.  
 

who the &^@# cares about hockey in Florida.. about 7k in die hard fans that likely are there because they cannot afford the AC bills.  
 

 

 

[Kootenay Gold]

7 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

One thing, until we win a cup then both TB and the lanche, we cannot be superior.  
 

but the drafting misses are dwarfed by the hits.  
 

Had to add the players that are playing elsewhere.  They are still drafting successes.  Whether it was good asset management to move them, that’s a different question.  
 

don’t know where we rank that way, 

 

still we need some wins,  what some forget is that OJ was played off the roster by a fourth rounder.  Does that mean JB sucked or is better than we thought?  
 

Rathbone gets drafted where next time.  Heck let’s do that for all the guys.  Where does Podz get picked?  Hogz?  Ep40, Hughes, Demko, Brock.   
 

the Miller trade was a great move, same with the OEL deal.  

Having the team in Abby will likely mean more players shift into the line up.   It will be nice to see what the future holds. 
 

Hope Woo turns out good.  It would be an indication that whatever mistakes were made with JV and OJ, that things were learned.  JB seems to learn from his mistakes, never prefect, but has he improved the state of the franchise? Has anyone been able do better with similar circumstances.  
 

BTw, the east is driving up salaries, and tax free.  That’s a real problem moving forward where tax free states or jurisdictions give an unfair advantage to those clubs.  
 

who the &^@# cares about hockey in Florida.. about 7k in die hard fans that likely are there because they cannot afford the AC bills.  
 

 

 

Good post. I thought that JB was below average in most non draft dealings at the start of his tenure but has improved over time and as you mentioned: "JB seems to learn from his mistakes". His trades and signings have also improved and the reasons for JV and OJ not panning out are on them.

 

JV was given every opportunity to succeed and OJ had plain bad luck with injuries at the start that certainly did not help his progression.

[Patel Bure]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Don't forget CAR....maybe Florida too. 

Will add Florida in a bit.  
 

Here is Carolina and NYI.

[Wanless]

9 hours ago, wallstreetamigo said:

What in the team results makes you feel they have taken steps toward success every year? Benning just spent an off-season purging all the bad contracts he signed. 

Well

when benning took over it was a retool, and as far as we know this was owners orders. This was a time of using second rounders to fill holes, benning took a lot of heat for this. However he was building  the current core with the Boeser Demko and Petterson picks

 

after the sedins retired there needed to be some NHL guys who could help insulate the new core for development reasons, beagle and rooster. And they did what they needed to but unfortunately both got injured and werent as effective anymore

 

So since the sedins retired it was small steps

 

31-40-0-11 sedins last year

35-36-0-11 pettersons first year

36-27-0-6 bubble hockey

23-29-0-4 regressed, however down first and fourth line centers for half of season, team decimated by covid, extremely tough schedule in first two weeks with no practice days

 

like i said, last year was an anomaly and there are legit reasons that can attribute to the lack of success beyond bennings control.

 

the way i see it the team has been improving every year but it will still be 2 years from now when they become a true contender

 

It is unrealistic to expect benning to be able to address every need in one off-season, and after this off-season, if the canucks make the playoffs he will be in discussion for GM of the year, especially for the contracts he handed out to all the RFAs

 

As for purging the bad contracts

 

Player Name came from the retool time with the sedins so you cant include that in your argument 

 

Beagle and Rooster both suffered career ending type injuries. Is Beagle even playing this year? Before their injuries they actually had positive impacts with their play. There has been lots of discussion about how having beagle in the lineup is better than not

 

As for rooster he had 31 points in 65 games and 13 points in 41 games while managing to be a positive player in the time he played before his knee injury. He was a very effective player that got injured

 

Virtanen was being accused for rape, so...

Holtby, Ill give you that, bad signing

 

 

 

[wallstreetamigo]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Adam Gaudette was sheltered, and given every chance to succeed.   Go back and look how many games he played the first year ... they never gave up on him and we're rewarded the following one.    Our lineup was created to push the young players and not gift spots.   Nothing wrong with that, it makes better hockey players.    Who knows what happened exactly,  Gaudette and JV were given every chance to make the show.    Their lack of offense last year and EP going down was all we needed to make the playoffs. Only Sutter scored some goals for us it was pathetic really.     He's lucky to have another go at it.    

Young players should be pushed to earn spots on a team. 

 

Here’s the thing for me though. My issue with both Desjardins and Green is that so should vets.

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, Patel Bure said:

Will add Florida in a bit.  
 

Here is Carolina and NYI.

Since 1998, Florida has missed the playoffs in all but four seasons.  :-o.  @IBatch

[wallstreetamigo]

6 hours ago, spook007 said:

Thats some statement... where have you heard that, or is it because they didn't let Tryamkin write his own check?

Benning himself said he agreed to Tryamkins asking price. But Benning then told Tryamkin he had to accept less right at that point or wait to sign until Benning could clear some of the huge dead cap he had. He had done the same thing to Tryamkin the year before and almost cost Tryamkinna KHL contract. So I understand Tryamkin not wanting to wait again. If Benning hadn’t bungled the cap so badly he wouldn’t have had to push a younger guy who might have actually helped the team to finally just give up on the Canucks.

 

I am pretty sure Tryamkin will sign in the NHL when his contract is done but it won’t be with the Canucks thanks to Benning.

[spook007]

55 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Benning himself said he agreed to Tryamkins asking price. But Benning then told Tryamkin he had to accept less right at that point or wait to sign until Benning could clear some of the huge dead cap he had. He had done the same thing to Tryamkin the year before and almost cost Tryamkinna KHL contract. So I understand Tryamkin not wanting to wait again. If Benning hadn’t bungled the cap so badly he wouldn’t have had to push a younger guy who might have actually helped the team to finally just give up on the Canucks.

 

I am pretty sure Tryamkin will sign in the NHL when his contract is done but it won’t be with the Canucks thanks to Benning.

Yes fair enough, so Benning did want him... I don't know, what the asking price was, but maybe it was higher than anticipated. 
Benning spends the money... to the cap. 
Now it can be discussed if that is right or wrong, but if he didn't there would be a lot of folks unhappy here...but that is another debate. I was certain Benning wanted Trym...

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Benning himself said he agreed to Tryamkins asking price. But Benning then told Tryamkin he had to accept less right at that point or wait to sign until Benning could clear some of the huge dead cap he had. He had done the same thing to Tryamkin the year before and almost cost Tryamkinna KHL contract. So I understand Tryamkin not wanting to wait again. If Benning hadn’t bungled the cap so badly he wouldn’t have had to push a younger guy who might have actually helped the team to finally just give up on the Canucks.

 

I am pretty sure Tryamkin will sign in the NHL when his contract is done but it won’t be with the Canucks thanks to Benning.

Do you have a link or a source to Benning’s interaction with Tryamkin and his agent?  (maybe something from Thomas Drance or Dhaliwal, etc.?).

 

Here’s my thing with Tryamkin:  If he’s so eager to return to the NHL with a team other than the Canucks, then why did he sign a TWO year deal in the K as opposed to one?  

[wallstreetamigo]

6 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Do you have a link or a source to Benning’s interaction with Tryamkin and his agent?  (maybe something from Thomas Drance or Dhaliwal, etc.?).

 

Here’s my thing with Tryamkin:  If he’s so eager to return to the NHL with a team other than the Canucks, then why did he sign a TWO year deal in the K as opposed to one?  

Is there a better link than Benning’s own public comments and Tryamkin’s agents public comments about the situation? 
 

A one year deal would have kept him as an RFA under Canucks control. A 2 year walked him right to UFA, that’s why. The 2 years proves only that he wants nothing further to do with Benning and the Canucks. And that Benning would rather let him walk for nothing than try to trade him.

Edited October 11, 2021 by wallstreetamigo

[Patel Bure]

13 hours ago, Timråfan said:

You can’t include Rathbone that can turn into the next Pouliot when the pressure on his shouldrs mount and Horvat as been said.

 

What we can see is that Utica was a disaster.

Only goalies like Demko and Marky came out undamaged(I think).

The rest had probably any creativity washed away by the kill or be killed mentality it seems that Benning wanted there.

 

when I joined a lot of the discussion was that we had a lot of young players that would turn into NHL players and that Utica was very good for the players development.

Benning is the master drafter… 

 

So, how many players have gone the Utica-route to play for the Canucks?
Don’t count goalies because they don’t have the same conditions.

So the only way Benning made it out good is that he had the oppurtunity to draft early and had the guts to draft small guys.

 

 

Hey, 

 

Sorry for my late response.  This is actually a legitimately good question by you and for that, I do not have an answer.  A lot of our guys that graduated to the NHL (Hoglander, Podkolzin, Rathbone, etc) did so without being in our farm.  
 

Outside of our goalies (Markstrom, Demko, and Dipietro) whom we developed, it only seems like some of our bottom guys are the ones breaking through to a certain extent (Gaudette, MacEwen).

 

Perhaps this is indicative of a poor AHL system, but it may also be indicative that we scout and draft these gems so well in the draft, that a lot of guys that are TRULY ready, simply develop their games rapidly in juniors, college, or European/Russian leagues abroad, and simply don’t need the AHL.

 

To answer your question however, I think the performance of Klimovich in Abottsford could be very revealing of what our system in Abby is actually like.  Perhaps the jury is still out with regards to the efficacy of our AHL system.

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Hey, 

 

Sorry for my late response.  This is actually a legitimately good question by you and for that, I do not have an answer.  A lot of our guys that graduated to the NHL (Hoglander, Podkolzin, Rathbone, etc) did so without being in our farm.  
 

Outside of our goalies (Markstrom, Demko, and Dipietro) whom we developed, it only seems like some of our bottom guys are the ones breaking through to a certain extent (Gaudette, MacEwen).

 

Perhaps this is indicative of a poor AHL system, but it may also be indicative that we scout and draft these gems so well in the draft, that a lot of guys that are TRULY ready, simply develop their games rapidly in juniors, college, or European/Russian leagues abroad, and simply don’t need the AHL.

 

To answer your question however, I think the performance of Klimovich in Abottsford could be very revealing of what our system in Abby is actually like.  Perhaps the jury is still out with regards to the efficacy of our AHL system.

Or it could mean that players that are developing well to step into the NHL are ones who are actually being developed completely outside the Canucks control. 
 

The Canucks have quite literally not been directly responsible for (or deserve this massive credit you are giving them for) the pre nhl development of many players of note on the roster. And they have failed miserably at developing any players of note outside goalies in the AHL.

[wallstreetamigo]

Players who jump right to the NHL from being drafted or from a development system other than the AHL are not development wins for the Canucks. They might be good draft picks but the development side had nothing to do with the Canucks.