Kyle Rittenhouse. Murder or self defense ?

[MaxVerstappen33]

11 minutes ago, JM_ said:

that logic doesn't follow, at all. You can believe that the circumstances doesn't meet the standard of self-defence or what's reasonable. 

 

He knew he shouldn't have been armed in the first place. He knowingly walked into a volatile situation, illegally armed. He then went looking for trouble, on some sort of self-appointed mission.

 

So we'll see what the evidence and process really shows, but you can't make this statement about self defence. 

The fact that everyone was violating curfew and he shouldn't have been there and didn't lawfully own the gun does not invalidate self defense. You would have to argue that he could have had time to unload the weapon or could have ran away (which he did until he was cornered) The reasonablness in question is in the exact moments it happened. Not if it was reasonable that he stayed home that day instead 

 

Classic Self-Defense: , whether the weapon used in self-defense is lawfully possessed doesn’t matter. The five core elements of self-defense – innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness – don’t make any reference whatever to the legality or illegality of one’s defensive weapon.

Edited November 7, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[JM_]

Just now, MaxVerstappen33 said:

The fact that everyone was violating curfew and he shouldn't have been there and didn't lawfully own the gun does not invalidate self defense.

 

Classic Self-Defense: , whether the weapon used in self-defense is lawfully possessed doesn’t matter. The five core elements of self-defense – innocence, imminence, proportionality, avoidance, and reasonableness – don’t make any reference whatever to the legality or illegality of one’s defensive weapon.

I think you're forgetting the "avoidance" bit  

 

Why was it necessary for him to show up illegally armed? let's start there. 

 

Was it reasonable for him to self-appoint himself to a mission? nope. 

 

Could he have reasonably avoided killing someone? thats not clear yet.

 

This is not an innocent kid that walked into the wrong back alley. He went looking for this, that will play into the jury's thinking. How much? we'll see. 

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

whether the weapon used in self-defense is lawfully possessed doesn’t matter.

So what?

The illegality of the weapon can have no bearing on the self defence plea; according to you; but it is still illegal to  have an illegal weapon. That is why, imo he will end up in jail.

[JM_]

Just now, gurn said:

So what?

The illegality of the weapon can have no bearing on the self defence plea; according to you; but it is still illegal to  have an illegal weapon. That is why, imo he will end up in jail.

it really speaks to the "reasonable" part of this. He didn't reach for a weapon in his home. He didn't have someone threatening his life prior to the riot, and felt the need to arm himself in self defence. 

 

He showed up looking for it. Its pretty important they get this one right, because we'll see more self-appointed hero's doing this if the kid gets off with no consequences. 

[bishopshodan]

9 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Watch the video. Its not pictures that are doctored. Unless you think the video is doctored. Which there is zero evidence to suggest 1:44 in https://www.bitchute.com/video/G7CycBXQIt2U/

It looks doctored to me. Some are suggesting that the still pics are showing light reflecting.

 

But most important. Can you find any article talking about the case that states that the defense claims that it was any type of molotov? Everything I have read refers to it as a plastic bag. 

 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2021/11/03/man-threw-plastic-bag-before-rittenhouse-shot-him.html

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-11-02/witness-rittenhouse-said-people-were-trying-to-hurt-him

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/prosecutors-show-rittenhouse-trial-jurors-video-protests-80957199

 

https://www.cbs58.com/news/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-day-4-juror-dismissed-witness-testimony-continues

Binger: "Did you ever see a weapon on Mr. Rosenbaum?" 

McGinniss: "No."

Binger: "A gun?"

McGinniss: "No."

Binger: "A knife?" asked Binger.

McGinniss: "No, I just saw a plastic bag, that was it."

[MaxVerstappen33]

7 minutes ago, JM_ said:

I think you're forgetting the "avoidance" bit  

 

Why was it necessary for him to show up illegally armed? let's start there. 

 

Was it reasonable for him to self-appoint himself to a mission? nope. 

 

Could he have reasonably avoided killing someone? thats not clear yet.

 

This is not an innocent kid that walked into the wrong back alley. He went looking for this, that will play into the jury's thinking. How much? we'll see. 

Its only question about the reasonableness in the exact moment he believed his life was in danger. Not in the hours or days before it happened. Otherwise there would never be a legit self defense case. You could keep rewinding the clock and keep making excuses.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

it really speaks to the "reasonable" part of this. He didn't reach for a weapon in his home. He didn't have someone threatening his life prior to the riot, and felt the need to arm himself in self defence. 

 

He showed up looking for it. Its pretty important they get this one right, because we'll see more self-appointed hero's doing this if the kid gets off with no consequences. 

I’m not familiar with this case, but from reading here there was a protest planned for a particular location.  The murderer didn’t live in the area, but went there armed to confront the protesters.  He then shot and killed someone.  Seems very obvious this is premeditated murder.  Guy should get life, or hanged.  Can’t have vigilantism (self appointed regulators) roaming the streets, confronting people, and then shooting them while claiming self defence.  

[Gurn]

Thing being the illegality of the weapon is going to cost Kyle a lot of extra years in jail if he is found guilty of manslaughter/murder.

And if he isn't found guilty, because the jury agrees with self defence, he is still going to do significant jail time for the crime of transporting an illegal weapon across state lines.

Then the lawsuits for killing those people, with an illegal gun are going to bankrupt the lobby groups that are financially supporting him.

Keep in mind civil cases require less burden of proof than criminal ones.

This kid is no hero.

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Its only question about the reasonableness in the exact moment he believed his life was in danger. Not in the hours or days before it happened. Otherwise there would never be a legit self defense case. You could keep rewinding the clock and keep making excuses.

The murderer self appointed himself a regulator.  He went to a protest armed, and confronted protesters.  He then shot one.  That’s premeditated murder.  It was planned.  Hang the little creep.  

[CBH1926]

23 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Watch the video. Its not pictures that are doctored. Unless you think the video is doctored. Which there is zero evidence to suggest 1:44 in https://www.bitchute.com/video/G7CycBXQIt2U/

Bitchute is known for being a platform where right wing elements post videos.

I wouldn’t consider it a reputable source.

 

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Its only question about the reasonableness in the exact moment he believed his life was in danger. Not in the hours or days before it happened. Otherwise there would never be a legit self defense case. You could keep rewinding the clock and keep making excuses.

doesn't work that way though, the circumstances for him being there does matter.  If creepy kid was there to be the aggressor, then his self defence claim goes out the window. 

 

It certainly seems plausible he was there to be aggressive. He illegally armed himself, lied about his training and likely went looking for someone to shoot. 

[JM_]

32 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I’m not familiar with this case, but from reading here there was a protest planned for a particular location.  The murderer didn’t live in the area, but went there armed to confront the protesters.  He then shot and killed someone.  Seems very obvious this is premeditated murder.  Guy should get life, or hanged.  Can’t have vigilantism (self appointed regulators) roaming the streets, confronting people, and then shooting them while claiming self defence.  

this is it. If he goes there armed and to cause trouble, lies about his abilities to others there to get into a fight, then he's being the aggressor. Self defence goes by bye bye.

 

Oops I lied my way into danger isn't a legit defence. 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by JM_

[Bure_of_94]

18 minutes ago, JM_ said:

this is it. If he goes there armed and to cause trouble, lies about his abilities to others there to get into a fight, then he's being the aggressor. Self defence goes by e bye.

 

Oops I lied my way into danger isn't a legit defence. 

What about when he was one of 20 people providing armed security to a car lot? Have you watched the full 7 minute video where there’s a mob of about 50 people chasing him and he’s yelling at them to F#$& off and leave him alone, then they kick out his feet? 

 

If me and 20 buddies were chasing you and I kicked your feet out and started kicking you in the side of your head and you had a gun, don’t you think you’d have every right to shoot me?
 

 

I mean who chases down someone with an automatic AR15???. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes... that Is why I feel everyone who died in this situation got what they deserved.
 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Bure_of_94

[bishopshodan]

No wonder so many places are banning plastic bags.

 

I had no idea how deadly of a weapon they must be.

 

This kid should do hard time.

Broke a bunch of laws just going there with an assault rifle...and he ends up killing people.

[butters]

All I know is that if what he did was ok, then anybody there would have been within their rights to shoot him too. 

[24K PureCool]

He should get one count of manslaughter at the minimum if not 2nd degree murder. Self defense stipulate appropriate response to the threat. No matter how you slice it shooting and killing someone cause they throw a plastic bag or even a glass bottle at you does not equate to deadly force with a gun. 

 

The only self defense I can see fly is the guy that tried to take the gun away from him as there is reasonable chance that he will shoot him instead had he gotten the gun. 

 

Either way he is clearly guilty of possessing illegal weapons and transporting them across state lines which will lead him to a lengthy time in jail. 

 

Also the gun group supporting him are idiots. This is why people dislike NRA and other such groups and against guns cause they are not even close to being rational about gun possession. The guy is underage to get a gun for christ sake. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

I’m not familiar with this case, but from reading here there was a protest planned for a particular location.  The murderer didn’t live in the area, but went there armed to confront the protesters.  He then shot and killed someone.  Seems very obvious this is premeditated murder.  Guy should get life, or hanged.  Can’t have vigilantism (self appointed regulators) roaming the streets, confronting people, and then shooting them while claiming self defence.  

You are aware that the 2 people shot literally tried to fight the gun out of the guys hand ?  The shooter was not legally required to give his gun to whoever was trying to steal it  just because he shouldn't have been there 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Bure_of_94 said:

What about when he was one of 20 people providing armed security to a car lot? Have you watched the full 7 minute video where there’s a mob of about 50 people chasing him and he’s yelling at them to F#$& off and leave him alone, then they kick out his feet? 

 

If me and 20 buddies were chasing you and I kicked your feet out and started kicking you in the side of your head and you had a gun, don’t you think you’d have every right to shoot me?
 

 

I mean who chases down someone with an automatic AR15???. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes... that Is why I feel everyone who died in this situation got what they deserved.
 

Am I supposed to feel sorry for him for some reason? or worse, identify with him? 

 

he's not a cop. He's not a medic. I don't care if thinks he was protecting a parking lot, he had no right to be there doing that. 

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

So what?

The illegality of the weapon can have no bearing on the self defence plea; according to you; but it is still illegal to  have an illegal weapon. That is why, imo he will end up in jail.

This didn't happen in Canada. The gun charges and misdemeanors in the state. 

 

 

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

You are aware that the 2 people shot literally tried to fight the gun out of the guys hand ?  The shooter was not legally required to give his gun to whoever was trying to steal it  just because he shouldn't have been there 

again, context. Why was he there? if it was to be the aggressor, it matters to his defence. I know you're stuck on the copy and paste of those 5 items, but his motivation for being there matters.