[Proposal] Adding while rising

[NMHockey]

2 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Rielly is absolute garbage in his own zone, Holl is carried by Muzzin, and Sandin is another trainwreck defensively.  I have zero tolerance for defensemen who can't play defence; if Rathbone doesn't figure it out, trade him. Toronto played Dermott because they simply don't care whether or not their D can avoid embarrassing themselves in their own zone.  Their team culture has zero accountability for playing like trash defensively, and it shows.  Toronto keeps getting bounced in the playoffs because they keep playing these AHLers instead of clearing house and getting rid of their pylon like Dermott.

Rielly is defensively not committed I agree. But Holl is underrated and can play and balance with any other D. He doesn’t just play with Muzzin.. Sandin is only 21 and will be an all around blueline stalwart so I don’t know what you mean there and again you jump on young offensive NHL D. Torontos issues with defence and overall character on and off the ice is something they’re trying to address. They played Dermott because they trusted him. It was the playoffs and they were doing everything they could to win…

[NMHockey]

2 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Canucks need a 3rd line centre who has some offensive upside can get 25 - 30 points in a season and wins more than half his faceoffs.  Is that Dickinson? We will see. His faceoffs are lousy and that is a HUGE negative on the pk which leads directly to goals against because most faceoffs on the pk occur in the defensive zone.

 

Next need is a good 4th line centre who plays with energy and an edge and can pk while winning half his faceoffs. Is that Lammiko? I dunno.

 

Next need is a 3LD who is solid.  Rathbone has not shown enough yet.

 

Next is Motte to return and return to form.

 

Last need is a great back up goalie.  Halak I dunno. Maybe Silovs down the road.

 

If we add these pieces we are gonna win some games. Until then we will be uneven.

 

 

Dickinson will continue to improve as he adapts to a new team and also as a player himself as he’s still fairly young and not done elevating his game. We can worry about a 3C come the trade deadline if we’re a contender. Until then I had that solved in my proposal with the centers going

 

Pettersson

Horvat

Miller - 3C you spoke of but much much much better of course.

Dickinson - Takes pressure off him needing to be an elite 3C and he plays with plenty of edge and energy (and speed!). 
Lammikko - He can handle the 4C you spoke of as well. He’s played very well and goes unnoticed just because he doesn’t get points. Let him sit in a depth spot pressure-free and see where his development takes him.

 

Motte will be back so that’s nothing to worry about. He’s skating again and right now it’s just important to make sure he’s physically and mentally better than before.

 

What are you talking about a backup goaltender? Halak is a stalwart veteran and has played lights out for us when giving Demko a night off. Future backup? Plenty of solid prospects coming. DiPietro, Silovs, Koskenvuo, Thiessen.

Edited November 9, 2021 by ZH96

[CanucksCountry]

11 minutes ago, ZH96 said:

They’re shopping him because they’re going to face cap crunches and just paid Rielly a huge extension… They already have Rielly, Brodie, Muzzin, Holl up front and now Sandin and Liljegren coming along. Dermott and Engvall will clear them just under $3 million. They won’t be able to keep all those D-men and they might trade just Holl and not Dermott so don’t jump the gun. Even a young talent like Artemi Panarin was traded for cap reasons and everyone downplayed him and said he was a product of Patrick Kane…. Ever consider that? It’s mainly cap reasons. You watching Toronto games the last few years means nothing. That also means you’ve been watching Dermott play from the ages of 18-24 Prime development stages… I should not have to tell you that.
You have no case. Take it from me from where I’ve played in Jr. A and who I know from playing. training, and being around. I have connections to the Maple Leafs and my cousin is Scott Niedermayer so I know defensemen VERY well. Also I’ll leave this here. I have more example besides the Panarin one as well as video clips of Dermott if you want more of either! Checkmate.

 

lol your cousin scott Niedermeyer stop making a fool of yourself lol, you played jr a what was it a cup of coffee? I play jr a right now lol i know people in the leafs org too i  workout with a few nhl and ncaa players lol but i'll throw you a bone lets say that's true, Doesn't make you a good scout/coach, Gretzky was the best player to ever lace em up yet was one of the worst coaches in the league lol , You said me not watching leaf games means nothing well isn't that the whole point of scouting is to watch the player? You link me a video here with half the 1:56 of it being photos of him  1 fight  where they don't show the whole fight because he loses it , 3 hits on guys either smaller or the same size of him 2 blocks, one which should have been a penalty and a turn over where he bales himself out in over time. i can sit here and provide you stats that show he is a negative asset instead of cherry picking 5 shifts of his where he wasn't a negative asset, i didn't see a single thing in that clip that made me go wow he is really worth trading a early second for, Brodie and Muzzin are the only ones able to play good in their own zone, so once again if he was so good in his own zone why would the leafs trade something of a need for them, you say cap reasons sure by wouldn't they trade Holl then? they are about the same level player Holl being a bit better imho, But makes $500,000 more, or how about Kerfoot who makes $3,500,000, Panarain was traded for cap reasons plus getting Saad back who had lot's of value at that time, it was a mistake in hindsight but it has nothing to do with Dermott, also with Dermott he is 25 next month so in a month does the prime development stages of 18-24 matter then? no he's done developing he is what he is, You can Call the Ducks get some retention on Manson to have the same price of a contract who would be MILES better then Dermott will ever be, If we are paying that high of price why not call Tampa and ask for Cale Foote? he is much younger and already proving to better then Dermott 

[NMHockey]

30 minutes ago, CanucksCountry said:

lol your cousin scott Niedermeyer stop making a fool of yourself lol, you played jr a what was it a cup of coffee? I play jr a right now lol i know people in the leafs org too i  workout with a few nhl and ncaa players lol but i'll throw you a bone lets say that's true, Doesn't make you a good scout/coach, Gretzky was the best player to ever lace em up yet was one of the worst coaches in the league lol , You said me not watching leaf games means nothing well isn't that the whole point of scouting is to watch the player? You link me a video here with half the 1:56 of it being photos of him  1 fight  where they don't show the whole fight because he loses it , 3 hits on guys either smaller or the same size of him 2 blocks, one which should have been a penalty and a turn over where he bales himself out in over time. i can sit here and provide you stats that show he is a negative asset instead of cherry picking 5 shifts of his where he wasn't a negative asset, i didn't see a single thing in that clip that made me go wow he is really worth trading a early second for, Brodie and Muzzin are the only ones able to play good in their own zone, so once again if he was so good in his own zone why would the leafs trade something of a need for them, you say cap reasons sure by wouldn't they trade Holl then? they are about the same level player Holl being a bit better imho, But makes $500,000 more, or how about Kerfoot who makes $3,500,000, Panarain was traded for cap reasons plus getting Saad back who had lot's of value at that time, it was a mistake in hindsight but it has nothing to do with Dermott, also with Dermott he is 25 next month so in a month does the prime development stages of 18-24 matter then? no he's done developing he is what he is, You can Call the Ducks get some retention on Manson to have the same price of a contract who would be MILES better then Dermott will ever be, If we are paying that high of price why not call Tampa and ask for Cale Foote? he is much younger and already proving to better then Dermott 

Far from a cup of coffee but I don’t know is your Jr.A stint just that? And you think I’m joking when I’m literally cousins with the Niedermayers and can personally send you a photo of me with Rob if you wanna be a smart***. Your grammar on top of the points you make really makes me question everything you’re saying… you’re suggesting to go and trade for expensive RHD that will cost us a 1st round pick when we already have Schenn, Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Burroughs, Woo, Bowey, Juulsen, Keeper, Persson. I’m suggesting a potential steal and filling our LHD need for an overpaid D-man we had on waivers three weeks ago and a 2nd round pick three years from now. Did you even watch the video, Dermott made multiple great heady and hustled plays on odd man rush defending situations, greatly timed hits, and barely lost a fight to a very experienced and much older NHL character bruiser in Troy Brouwer. You’ve bashed NHL D-men 24 years old and under multiple times now and it shows your lack of scouting ability and IQ. Wonder how that’s translating on the ice…

Edited November 9, 2021 by ZH96

[JM_]

13 hours ago, ZH96 said:

@King Heffy @CanucksCountry @JM_ So what’s the difference in doing that then with a young Dermott that still has decent NHL experience including playoffs, has size, can skate, and is aggressive all over the ice?? Man oh man our fanbase is frustrating.

 

Demers & Dermott >>> Hamonic & Hunt

 

 

I just don't think its worth losing assets over. Even if you believe Dermott brings more than Hamonic, its not enough to justify losing assets over imo.

[Gurn]

Hamonic has an 8 team don't trade clause.

Until you know who is on that list, no point in speculating on a deal; unless you post 9 potential deals.

[Crimson]

Well, at least this is well thought out and you put some effort into it.

 

Sorry to say though that Dermott is not Schmidt and definitely isn't Panarin.

[NMHockey]

1 hour ago, Crimson said:

Well, at least this is well thought out and you put some effort into it.

 

Sorry to say though that Dermott is not Schmidt and definitely isn't Panarin.

I was making an example about young players in certain situations. Not comparing Panarin to Dermott……. Dermott is only 24 and has the potential to be like Schmidt as I said.

[CanucksCountry]

17 hours ago, ZH96 said:

Far from a cup of coffee but I don’t know is your Jr.A stint just that? And you think I’m joking when I’m literally cousins with the Niedermayers and can personally send you a photo of me with Rob if you wanna be a smart***. Your grammar on top of the points you make really makes me question everything you’re saying… you’re suggesting to go and trade for expensive RHD that will cost us a 1st round pick when we already have Schenn, Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Burroughs, Woo, Bowey, Juulsen, Keeper, Persson. I’m suggesting a potential steal and filling our LHD need for an overpaid D-man we had on waivers three weeks ago and a 2nd round pick three years from now. Did you even watch the video, Dermott made multiple great heady and hustled plays on odd man rush defending situations, greatly timed hits, and barely lost a fight to a very experienced and much older NHL character bruiser in Troy Brouwer. You’ve bashed NHL D-men 24 years old and under multiple times now and it shows your lack of scouting ability and IQ. Wonder how that’s translating on the ice…

you rag on me for having bad grammar yet you don't even have a grade 1 level of reading comprehension, I really couldn't give a flying &^@# who your cousin is he could be Bobby Orr for all I care it doesn't make you a good talent scout, I am going to put it this if your such a good Defensive talent scout to point where your opinion is right over every single statistic and two fanbases call up your cousin and see if he can get you a job working in the minors and work your way up from there and become an NHL scout, at best lets say you are right you are still paying a  2nd for a 3rd paring Dman that's not good asset management, Hamonic was on waivers as we didn't know if he was coming back put him on waivers now and there will be loads of teams lining up to claim him, I am not sitting here bashing a "24 year old nhl dmen" I am showing what your saying about him is utterly  false the fact you deny and don't have a rebuttal instead choosing to say stat's don't matter shows how much you know about how teams are built hate to break to you but EVERY single nhl team has a analytics department no here has agreed with you maybe you should re think things instead of thinking your the smartest in the room  

Edited November 10, 2021 by CanucksCountry

[NMHockey]

2 hours ago, CanucksCountry said:

you rag on me for having bad grammar yet you don't even have a grade 1 level of reading comprehension, I really couldn't give a flying &^@# who your cousin is he could be Bobby Orr for all I care it doesn't make you a good talent scout, I am going to put it this if your such a good Defensive talent scout to point where your opinion is right over every single statistic and two fanbases call up your cousin and see if he can get you a job working in the minors and work your way up from there and become an NHL scout, at best lets say you are right you are still paying a  2nd for a 3rd paring Dman that's not good asset management, Hamonic was on waivers as we didn't know if he was coming back put him on waivers now and there will be loads of teams lining up to claim him, I am not sitting here bashing a "24 year old nhl dmen" I am showing what your saying about him is utterly  false the fact you deny and don't have a rebuttal instead choosing to say stat's don't matter shows how much you know about how teams are built hate to break to you but EVERY single nhl team has a analytics department no here has agreed with you maybe you should re think things instead of thinking your the smartest in the room  

Grade 1 reading comprehension LOL you make no sense. You’ve provided zero stats as well so if you want to scout from that ballpark than you’re just contradicting yourself. And my point (which many people would say this too) is your label on very young D-men/players especially ones that have played for only one team like Dermott; is flawed because in those situations the player needs more time to see what he becomes and/or a new team for a fresh start. My point with stats is any random person on the street can read a piece of paper that shows either good or bad corsi, +/-, O-zone time, D-zone time, puck retrieval, puck control, shooting %, etc, etc. But that therefore makes them a scout or coach? Think about it. You need to know the game and have played at a decent level and/or been around the game a lot. To actually know and see details of hands, shooting, edge work, stride quality, the players body and sport-med science behind it, their vision, instincts, IQ appearance, etc. And I’ve seen countless people talk about this. There’s a reason for the jokes about the “stats junkies” and “stats gurus”. A lot of the NHL teams that started relying on analytics also started to have the people responsible for them take heat. People started to realize there’s a lot more to it. Hockey is a game of athletes skill and character. Not just what the numbers show. After the Vancouver-Arizona blockbuster trade people said Oliver Ekman-Larsson had horrible advanced stats and people pointed to that but now look at him on the Canucks. I also highly doubt teams would line up for Hamonic with his $3 Million dollar cap hit, history of leaving for personal reasons, and overall ability and impact on the game at this point (I’m not bashing Hamonic I like him as a player I just think he’s “decent” not some high-end RHD). I’ll see you at a future NHL GMs meeting  good luck on the ice.

[NMHockey]

@JM_ @CanucksCountry  As well as everyone who put that label on Dermott and told me and my thread off in support of Hamonic as a better option for us.. you owe me an apology and you’re all fired from my scouting staff. 
 

[JM_]

3 hours ago, ZH96 said:

@JM_ @CanucksCountry  As well as everyone who put that label on Dermott and told me and my thread off in support of Hamonic as a better option for us.. you owe me an apology and you’re all fired from my scouting staff. 
 

 

I mean, it has to do with his vaccination schedule but sure.

 

[Bobby James]

3 hours ago, ZH96 said:

As well as everyone who put that label on Dermott and told me and my thread off in support of Hamonic as a better option for us.. you owe me an apology and you’re all fired from my scouting staff. 

It was already reported when he returned that he won't be on this upcoming road trip.

 

In general it still feels like you are undervaluing Hamonic and his skill level. Again I'm not expert on Dermott, but we need solid defensive defensemen to cover our top 2 LHD who are more offensive minded (although I'll give OEL credit, he's playing well everywhere currently) and Poolman seems like a better long term fit on the bottom pairing and Schen is a great 7D (maybe a #6) that can fill in and brings some strength. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Bobby James

[NMHockey]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

 

I mean, it has to do with his vaccination schedule but sure.

 

I’m just buggin ya 

[NMHockey]

3 minutes ago, ZH96 said:

I’m just buggin ya 

@JM_ it should also be noted that I’m choosing you to be my director of pro scouting. Congrats on the promotion and keep it up! 

[CanucksCountry]

23 hours ago, ZH96 said:

Grade 1 reading comprehension LOL you make no sense. You’ve provided zero stats as well so if you want to scout from that ballpark than you’re just contradicting yourself. And my point (which many people would say this too) is your label on very young D-men/players especially ones that have played for only one team like Dermott; is flawed because in those situations the player needs more time to see what he becomes and/or a new team for a fresh start. My point with stats is any random person on the street can read a piece of paper that shows either good or bad corsi, +/-, O-zone time, D-zone time, puck retrieval, puck control, shooting %, etc, etc. But that therefore makes them a scout or coach? Think about it. You need to know the game and have played at a decent level and/or been around the game a lot. To actually know and see details of hands, shooting, edge work, stride quality, the players body and sport-med science behind it, their vision, instincts, IQ appearance, etc. And I’ve seen countless people talk about this. There’s a reason for the jokes about the “stats junkies” and “stats gurus”. A lot of the NHL teams that started relying on analytics also started to have the people responsible for them take heat. People started to realize there’s a lot more to it. Hockey is a game of athletes skill and character. Not just what the numbers show. After the Vancouver-Arizona blockbuster trade people said Oliver Ekman-Larsson had horrible advanced stats and people pointed to that but now look at him on the Canucks. I also highly doubt teams would line up for Hamonic with his $3 Million dollar cap hit, history of leaving for personal reasons, and overall ability and impact on the game at this point (I’m not bashing Hamonic I like him as a player I just think he’s “decent” not some high-end RHD). I’ll see you at a future NHL GMs meeting  good luck on the ice.

 

On 11/8/2021 at 4:08 AM, CanucksCountry said:

 Dermott has 2 fights in the nhl so I really wouldn't call him a fighter, he does hit about the same much as Hamonic, the biggest stat the worries me with Dermott is His giveaway to takeaway ratio last year on the leafs who where the best in the division he turned the puck over almost 30 times compared to picking it off just 4 which isn't the player we need while comparing this to Hamonic's 19 giveaways to 10 takeaways it seems we are downgrading on the defensive side here, while giving up a player that helps our biggest weakness which a shutdown RHD and we are giving a 2nd round pick to do so, much better options for a 3rd paring LHD elsewhere 

Well that is just false but go on, in terms of people just reading a sheet of paper that's false there is a lot more to understanding analytics then just reading a bunch of paper, i agree you can't just go off stats but he also doesn't pass a lot of peoples eye test, OEL stats did show how he was playing at the time, OEL and Dermott's scenarios are very different OEL was playing in one for one of the worst teams in the League while still putting up decent Offensive numbers, Every star that has gone through Rick Tochetts system always see a decrease in their play, Dermott is on his 2nd coach with his stats staying about the same, He is an Offensive Dman struggling to put up points on a run and gun style leafs team that's what's concerning, may a trade help him? maybe but i don't see him ever being a quality top 4 guy in the nhl imho he is just a bigger version of Stecher, we are giving up a guy who is better in his own zone, while also giving up a big asset in a 2nd round pick I sure would hope we would be getting something more then just "Decent" which would be best case scenario, Hamonic with $3,000,000 Cap hit is right where it should be, He would be on lot's of teams 2nd pair like how he is with us   

[NMHockey]

On 11/8/2021 at 9:21 AM, #Canucks said:

Hamonic is way better. This makes us worse.

 

On 11/8/2021 at 9:32 AM, JM_ said:

very debatable on the more skilled part. 

 

On 11/8/2021 at 8:49 AM, King Heffy said:

He's a pretty clear downgrade defensively.

 

I’ve defended Dermott for a long time and given reason and video of him to show why he’d fix our LHD depth issue. Here’s another bit of information to observe about Dermott. His % of efficiency in moving the puck out of his own zone all last season was above Fox, Fabbro, Dahlin and basically on the same fundamental level as Chabot, Klingberg, Girard.

Edited December 3, 2021 by ZH96

[NMHockey]

On 11/9/2021 at 6:02 PM, CanucksCountry said:

you rag on me for having bad grammar yet you don't even have a grade 1 level of reading comprehension, I really couldn't give a flying &^@# who your cousin is he could be Bobby Orr for all I care it doesn't make you a good talent scout, I am going to put it this if your such a good Defensive talent scout to point where your opinion is right over every single statistic and two fanbases call up your cousin and see if he can get you a job working in the minors and work your way up from there and become an NHL scout, at best lets say you are right you are still paying a  2nd for a 3rd paring Dman that's not good asset management, Hamonic was on waivers as we didn't know if he was coming back put him on waivers now and there will be loads of teams lining up to claim him, I am not sitting here bashing a "24 year old nhl dmen" I am showing what your saying about him is utterly  false the fact you deny and don't have a rebuttal instead choosing to say stat's don't matter shows how much you know about how teams are built hate to break to you but EVERY single nhl team has a analytics department no here has agreed with you maybe you should re think things instead of thinking your the smartest in the room  

 

[King Heffy]

12 minutes ago, ZH96 said:

 

 

 

I’ve defended Dermott for a long time and given reason and video of him to show why he’d fix our LHD depth issue. Here’s another bit of information to observe about Dermott. His % of efficiency in moving the puck out of his own zone all last season was above Fox, Fabbro, Dahlin and basically on the same fundamental level as Chabot, Klingberg, Girard.

That list is petty suspect considering how bad Rielly and Gostisbehere are in their own zone.  Shows how meaningless those stats are, and certainly doesn't do anything to suggest that Dermott can play defence when there are multiple guys on that list who belong in the AHL.

Edited December 3, 2021 by King Heffy

[NMHockey]

14 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

That list is petty suspect considering how bad Rielly and Gostisbehere are in their own zone.  Shows how meaningless those stats are, and certainly doesn't do anything to suggest that Dermott can play defence when there are multiple guys on that list who belong in the AHL.

The difference is Rielly is overrated and makes $7.5 Million/year which makes him look even worse and he’s also turning 28 in March. Where as Dermott is not only underrated and only making $1.5 Million/year but he’s on the same team as Rielly and stuck way behind him. Plus Dermott only turns 25 this month. Give him a bigger role than the one he has which is the Leafs not even playing him… and a little more development time. Also my idea is to bring him in as the 3rd LHD behind OEL and Q.Hughes. Is that really the worst thing? Bringing in a 24 year old former 2nd round pick D-man that’s shown speed, a lot of aggression, has size, has some more development time leeway, and would only be asked to develop into a 3rd pairing guy anyway?? 
 

As for Gostisbehere that’s a different set of circumstances. Philadelphias blueline mess all those years was destroying his development. They never cared to be on his case enough about rounding out his two-way game (because he was putting up so many points). Gostisbehere is also only 5’11, 180 where as Rielly is 6’1, 217.   And Dermott is 6’0, 215.

Rielly and Dermott at least have size to go along with the skating ability.. that makes them physically imposing when they want to be. Unlike Gostisbehere. And Dermott out of all three of them has used his size the best and used it with well timed hits.