[Discussion] *BOOM* It's Been Blown Up, Who Goes, What's The Value?

[Warhippy]

Simple question.

 

Every other thread is a fire Benning/Fire Green thread.  I want Green gone yesterday, only gave him 30 games this season but hoping he's gone by the 20 mark.  Benning I'd keep until the end of next season/2023 draft with the provision that he can NOT trade picks

 

But everyone is also stating get rid of the key pieces.  Pettersson/Horvat/Miller

 

So this is a VERY simple premise.

 

Who do you keep and who do you trade and what do you think is the value for the player?

 

Miller: 1st, 2nd, Blue Chip prospect for a 1st line c/w near PPG player under contract

Horvat: 1st, 2nd or Blue Chip prospect for a quality 2A centre and defensive gem

 

See how it goes?

 

Let's see what you consider expendable and what the return you feel should be for it

[Kelly Green]

Trade no one until 10 games under the new coaching staff is what I would do.

 

Selling low is never a good idea

[Ohthehumanity]

Damn Hippy! I thought something actually happened by your title of this thread

[deus.ex.makina]

Trade Dickinson.
Trade Pearson (Horvat will be sad)

 

Get Domi (Horvat will be happy)

 

 

 

[NUCKER67]

56 minutes ago, Ohthehumanity said:

Damn Hippy! I thought something actually happened by your title of this thread

lol me too, I stepped away for an hour and came back to see it's been blown up. "Something happened!  What did I miss!?  Who's been fired!?"  

 

Benning went all in this year I think, except he seems to still think Travis is the guy. He isn't though, and it sounds like Green has lost the room. With no respected authority in the room, there is possible confusion and frustration with the players, even possibly bickering at each other. The zoo has an incompetent zoo keeper and the animals are getting restless. This can't be good. 

 

[Patel Bure]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Simple question.

 

Every other thread is a fire Benning/Fire Green thread.  I want Green gone yesterday, only gave him 30 games this season but hoping he's gone by the 20 mark.  Benning I'd keep until the end of next season/2023 draft with the provision that he can NOT trade picks

 

But everyone is also stating get rid of the key pieces.  Pettersson/Horvat/Miller

 

So this is a VERY simple premise.

 

Who do you keep and who do you trade and what do you think is the value for the player?

 

Miller: 1st, 2nd, Blue Chip prospect for a 1st line c/w near PPG player under contract

Horvat: 1st, 2nd or Blue Chip prospect for a quality 2A centre and defensive gem

 

See how it goes?

 

Let's see what you consider expendable and what the return you feel should be for it

I'm not opposed to trading the players that you suggested (and for the value that you suggested), but I would move these guys at the trade deadline if we are *way* out of it.  Teams always overpay at the trade deadline and so guys like Horvat, Miller, and Boeser would fetch us massive premiums at that time.  

[Coconuts]

I guess I'll list the players that would have value to other teams first and go from there.

 

Forwards: Horvat, Hoglander, Pettersson, Garland, Podkolzin, Miller, Boeser, Motte, Sutter, and Pearson. 

 

Defense: Hughes, Hamonic, Poolman, Myers, Schenn. 

 

Goalies: Demko, Halak.

 

Sutter is unlikely to come back so we can knock him off the list, Schenn is currently hurt. 

 

I view Hughes, Demko, and Pettersson as the players least likely to be moved. Pettersson shouldn't be imo, as we'd be selling low and it's not worth giving up on a 23 year old forward who's produced like he has in the past because of 16 odd games. 

 

Hoglander and Podkolzin shouldn't be moved. Hoglander's still growing his game and he's been one of our better forwards all season despite his point totals not reflecting that. Podkolzin should be viewed as the future, and his ELC is too valuable to move for a Canucks team that typically caps out. 

 

Myers is unlikely to be moved, largely because of his cap hit and because we've got nobody to fill that void. I don't see Hamonic being keen to move at all, given his personal stuff. 

 

Which leaves Horvat, Miller, Poolman, Halak, Pearson, and Motte. 

 

Miller's been one of the few forwards who's consistently produced this season while Horvat hasn't looked like himself. Pearson hasn't really produced, Motte just got back, and Poolman's looked like fair value imo. Halak's been great, but has suffered the same fate as Holtby in that he barely gets any run support. We simply haven't scored much in front of Halak, not that we've scored much period.

 

Teams would probs have interest in everyone but Pearson imo, but you never know. 

 

I have the value of Miller and Horvat near what you've posted, particularly at the deadline. Maybe a 3rd or 4th for Halak if we retain? A 3rd for Motte? A 2nd or 3rd for Poolman? 

 

I'm more inclined to keep Horvat than Miller because of age and position, he's also our most reliable faceoff guy. Fits in better with the age of the rest of our current core. I think trading Poolman would be a mistake, because I think he's fair value for what he's paid and then we'd have to replace him. I'd be fine with moving Halak if we're out of it, but I question who'd back up Demko. I like Motte, and depending on what he's looking for in terms of money I'd prefer to keep him. He's a great bottom six guy who's young enough to fit, he's a good PK guy. I'd be fine with moving Pearson, I just don't know what a team would offer for him. 

 

I'd prefer help on D for Miller, who's the guy I think we should move, but we could pay for such a player with the picks we could get for Miller. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Coconuts

[DrJockitch]

I think JT Miller should be first to go.  Just age and some other issues there, team is a few years away from competitive.

Frankly would listen to offers for any D not named Hughes.

Kind of think it is worth testing the waters on Boeser as well.

I don't think this team is close with Pettey not flying but think he needs to have a longer go before we do anything there.

Bottom six has been a mess but not much value there and if Benning is around, don't want him trying to fix it with spending which is his usuall MO.

We need picks and picks and picks at this point.

The retool failed but there are a few nice young pieces to keep, primarily Demko, Hughes, EP, Hoglander, Garland and Bo.  Will see with Podz but like much of his game.  The rest I would have on the auction block.

[Junkyard Dog]

If we exhaust all options and a new coach/GM can’t win with this group as it is then a soft rebuild for 2 years. If the group is still incapable after all that then you risk Horvat/Miller walking which would really set us back. 

 

In a soft rebuild you keep the players still young enough to stick around in Hughes, Pod, Hog, Demko, Petey and maybe Boeser. 

 

Trade the higher value vets in Miller, Horvat, Pearson and maybe Boeser initially. Look to trade others like Garland, Hamonic, Poolman, etc afterwards. 
 

Miller and Horvat alone would command a small fortune. Accumulate picks/prospects the next 2 seasons. Draft top 5 the next 2 seasons. You’d be shedding cap simultaneously. 
 

After 2 year phase of drafting top 5, accumulating prospects via trade and the draft in those 2 years you build the roster from there on out starting with filling some of the bigger holes via UFA. Youngsters would be knocking on the door at the same time.

 

You probably wouldn’t be a playoff team right away in year 3 unless you really nail the right UFA(or two) and the draft(like win the lotto) but you’d be on the uptrend with quality youngsters making the team and only getting better on top of already having guys there to work with. 

[Gurn]

3 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Miller: 1st, 2nd, Blue Chip prospect for a 1st line c/w near PPG player under contract

Horvat: 1st, 2nd or Blue Chip prospect for a quality 2A centre and defensive gem

 speculation on value

 

Pearson-  2nd at deadline

E.P.-         2 firsts, a 2nd, and an  A list prospect 

Boeser     1 first,  a pair of 2nds, and an A list prospect 

Garland    1 first and B level prospect

 

 

Whatever you can get  category  --------        maybe 4th rounders?

Highmore

Dowling

Chaisson                  

Hunt

Buroughs

Bailley

 

[Father Ryan]

Without going into "what" we could get back, my immediate move list would be: Pearson and Rathbone. That would be just to clarify those two positions. Pearson likely would be considered a bit of a salary dump, so that lowers his value. Maybe the combination of the two would net us one decent L side Dman. 

 

If, at TD, the team still sucks, then: Miller, Boeser, Motte, and a selection of the bottom line guys that have expiring contracts. The aim would be draft picks, pure and simple. With Miller and Boeser, I would think a 1st for each of them, plus depth, and for Boeser a reliable 4th line, R hand center. I'd add Myers, but who would take him? 

 

Halak is an interesting case. He's getting to an age where he knows he is no longer a #1 G; this is obvious. Now, would he consider stepping down and then taking a goalie coach position with Abbotsford? Start working his way up to head coach somewhere, or at least to Ian Clark level goalie coach? If so, he stays. If not, he goes at the TD.

 

That leaves:      ____         Petersson    Garland

                         _____        Horvat         Hoglander

                         Dickinson  ______       Podkolzin

                         ______     ______       _______

 

                                OEL        Myers

                               Hughes    Hamonic

                                ______   Poolman

 

                                    Demko

                                    _____

 

Lockwood takes one 4th line spot, maybe even the center. Di Guiseppe takes another spot. And plenty of cap room, especially with Luongo FINALLY coming off the payroll (thank you Mike Gillis)

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, Ohthehumanity said:

Damn Hippy! I thought something actually happened by your title of this thread

Sorry to disappoint old bean

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I guess I'll list the players that would have value to other teams first and go from there.

 

Forwards: Horvat, Hoglander, Pettersson, Garland, Podkolzin, Miller, Boeser, Motte, Sutter, and Pearson. 

 

Defense: Hughes, Hamonic, Poolman, Myers, Schenn. 

 

Goalies: Demko, Halak.

 

Sutter is unlikely to come back so we can knock him off the list, Schenn is currently hurt. 

 

I view Hughes, Demko, and Pettersson as the players least likely to be moved. Pettersson shouldn't be imo, as we'd be selling low and it's not worth giving up on a 23 year old forward who's produced like he has in the past because of 16 odd games. 

 

Hoglander and Podkolzin shouldn't be moved. Hoglander's still growing his game and he's been one of our better forwards all season despite his point totals not reflecting that. Podkolzin should be viewed as the future, and his ELC is too valuable to move for a Canucks team that typically caps out. 

 

Myers is unlikely to be moved, largely because of his cap hit and because we've got nobody to fill that void. I don't see Hamonic being keen to move at all, given his personal stuff. 

 

Which leaves Horvat, Miller, Poolman, Halak, Pearson, and Motte. 

 

Miller's been one of the few forwards who's consistently produced this season while Horvat hasn't looked like himself. Pearson hasn't really produced, Motte just got back, and Poolman's looked like fair value imo. Halak's been great, but has suffered the same fate as Holtby in that he barely gets any run support. We simply haven't scored much in front of Halak, not that we've scored much period.

 

Teams would probs have interest in everyone but Pearson imo, but you never know. 

 

I have the value of Miller and Horvat near what you've posted, particularly at the deadline. Maybe a 3rd or 4th for Halak if we retain? A 3rd for Motte? A 2nd or 3rd for Poolman? 

 

I'm more inclined to keep Horvat than Miller because of age and position, he's also our most reliable faceoff guy. Fits in better with the age of the rest of our current core. I think trading Poolman would be a mistake, because I think he's fair value for what he's paid and then we'd have to replace him. I'd be fine with moving Halak if we're out of it, but I question who'd back up Demko. I like Motte, and depending on what he's looking for in terms of money I'd prefer to keep him. He's a great bottom six guy who's young enough to fit, he's a good PK guy. I'd be fine with moving Pearson, I just don't know what a team would offer for him. 

 

I'd prefer help on D for Miller, who's the guy I think we should move, but we could pay for such a player with the picks we could get for Miller. 

 

2 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

If we exhaust all options and a new coach/GM can’t win with this group as it is then a soft rebuild for 2 years. If the group is still incapable after all that then you risk Horvat/Miller walking which would really set us back. 

 

In a soft rebuild you keep the players still young enough to stick around in Hughes, Pod, Hog, Demko, Petey and maybe Boeser. 

 

Trade the higher value vets in Miller, Horvat, Pearson and maybe Boeser initially. Look to trade others like Garland, Hamonic, Poolman, etc afterwards. 
 

Miller and Horvat alone would command a small fortune. Accumulate picks/prospects the next 2 seasons. Draft top 5 the next 2 seasons. You’d be shedding cap simultaneously. 
 

After 2 year phase of drafting top 5, accumulating prospects via trade and the draft in those 2 years you build the roster from there on out starting with filling some of the bigger holes via UFA. Youngsters would be knocking on the door at the same time.

 

You probably wouldn’t be a playoff team right away in year 3 unless you really nail the right UFA(or two) and the draft(like win the lotto) but you’d be on the uptrend with quality youngsters making the team and only getting better on top of already having guys there to work with. 

Damn fine suggestions lads, damned fine indeed.

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Simple question.

 

 I want Green gone yesterday, only gave him 30 games this season but hoping he's gone by the 20 mark.  Benning I'd keep until the end of next season/2023 draft with the provision that he can NOT trade picks

 

But everyone is also stating get rid of the key pieces.  Pettersson/Horvat/Miller

 

 

Who do you keep and who do you trade and what do you think is the value for the player?

 

Miller: 1st, 2nd, Blue Chip prospect for a 1st line c/w near PPG player under contract

Horvat: 1st, 2nd or Blue Chip prospect for a quality 2A centre and defensive gem

 

 

Always fun to do these Warhippy, but first I want to make a point over the High-lited sentence on your original post (Which I shortened, just to make it cleaner)

 

You say you would want Green gone now, but would leave Binning in charge to hire the next coach, which means he would be looking for a coach with a similar philosophy to his own, much like Green. I find that to be the wrong order and counter productive, if we in fact are firing Benning for his moves and hirings..............I hope you see what I mean?????

 

As per value............Hmmm????? I would like to go with the sell high, buy low, but I am not sure, in this case...............

 

I know there is no point in making a change for change sake, so it would not be a player in the bottom 1/2 of the team, so that simplifies it

 

Unless part of a bigger trade....................

 

Pettersson......................a Blue chip prospect, a 1st, and a roster player

Hughes...........................a Blue chip prospect, a 1st, and a roster player

Miller...............................a Blue chip prospect or a 1st and 2nd

Demko............................a Blue chip prospect and a mid-1st

 

Horvat............................a Blue chip prospect and 2-2nds/roster player

Boeser............................a Blue chip prospect and a 2nd

Garland..........................a Blue chip prospect and a 2nd

 

Myers 50%.....................a late 1st

OEL 50%........................a late 1st

Pearson..........................a mid 2nd

Halak..............................a mid 2nd

 

Hoglander.......................mid 1st

Podkolzin........................mid 1st

 

Motte..............................2nd

Hamonic.........................2/3 ish

 

Kind of makes you wonder what the problem is.........doesn't it?

 

 

[Provost]

Yes, do it now while Miller is hot and before he gets hurt and can’t get traded.

 

Don't wait until the deadline, teams make moves earlier nowadays and Benning has a bad habit of “running out of time” when he has to get assignments in at deadlines.

 

Those valuations seem pretty much right on the mark.  Both guys play a style that should work wel in the playoffs.  Both have really good cap hits, we could take on expiring money back if need to to grease the wheels.

 

Honestly, 1st round picks are undervalued at the trade deadline and over valued just before the draft so we could flip them for really good players so we end up with a couple of blue chip prospects and a couple of legit top half of the lineup NHLers.

 

Halak seems like a trade deadline possibility if he doesn’t want to extend a year until we are sure of DiPietro as back up.

[Provost]

3 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

If we exhaust all options and a new coach/GM can’t win with this group as it is then a soft rebuild for 2 years. If the group is still incapable after all that then you risk Horvat/Miller walking which would really set us back. 

 

In a soft rebuild you keep the players still young enough to stick around in Hughes, Pod, Hog, Demko, Petey and maybe Boeser. 

 

Trade the higher value vets in Miller, Horvat, Pearson and maybe Boeser initially. Look to trade others like Garland, Hamonic, Poolman, etc afterwards. 
 

Miller and Horvat alone would command a small fortune. Accumulate picks/prospects the next 2 seasons. Draft top 5 the next 2 seasons. You’d be shedding cap simultaneously. 
 

After 2 year phase of drafting top 5, accumulating prospects via trade and the draft in those 2 years you build the roster from there on out starting with filling some of the bigger holes via UFA. Youngsters would be knocking on the door at the same time.

 

You probably wouldn’t be a playoff team right away in year 3 unless you really nail the right UFA(or two) and the draft(like win the lotto) but you’d be on the uptrend with quality youngsters making the team and only getting better on top of already having guys there to work with. 

This is how I see it.  If we make these sorts of moves we might be able to start being competitive in 3 years.

 

Without making the moves, I would say a decade where maybe we make the playoffs every once in a while and never make any noise.  We will be in a churn where we lose players who become UFAs just as fast as we draft them and can’t ever get ahead.

[Crabcakes]

It is the players.  But why? 

 

If this team is having culture and leadership issues, the last thing they need to do is to **Blow It Up**

 

The only way out of this mess is to let the team become a team and develop their culture and time is the only cure

 

If you want to change the management group who put them in this place, that would be a better idea.

[Patel Bure]

12 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Simple question.

 

Every other thread is a fire Benning/Fire Green thread.  I want Green gone yesterday, only gave him 30 games this season but hoping he's gone by the 20 mark.  Benning I'd keep until the end of next season/2023 draft with the provision that he can NOT trade picks

 

But everyone is also stating get rid of the key pieces.  Pettersson/Horvat/Miller

 

So this is a VERY simple premise.

 

Who do you keep and who do you trade and what do you think is the value for the player?

 

Miller: 1st, 2nd, Blue Chip prospect for a 1st line c/w near PPG player under contract

Horvat: 1st, 2nd or Blue Chip prospect for a quality 2A centre and defensive gem

 

See how it goes?

 

Let's see what you consider expendable and what the return you feel should be for it

For me, I wouldn’t “blow it up,” but rather, attempt to make lateral moves in which we accept a slight down grade with the expectation that we’d be getting players signed to a longer term in order to solidify our future (yes, I realize that Sam Reinhart is only signed for three years but he’s also from here and so perhaps he’s likelier to resign here after becoming a UFA).

 

To Ottawa:  Elias Pettersson

To Vancouver:  Brady Tkachuk

 

To Minnesota: Brock Boeser

To Vancouver:  Joel Player NameEk

 

To Florida:  JT Miller

To Vancouver:  Sam Reinhart + draft pick

 

To Vegas:  Bo Horvat

To Vancouver:  William Karlsson

 

B.Tkachuk-Reinhart-Dickinson

Podkolzin-Karlsson-Garland

Pearson-Player NameEk-Hoglander

Motte-Lammiko-Bailey

 

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Hamonic

Burroughs-Poolman

 

Demko

Halak

Edited November 17, 2021 by Patel Bure

[qwijibo]

1 hour ago, Patel Bure said:

For me, I wouldn’t “blow it up,” but rather, attempt to make lateral moves in which we accept a slight down grade with the expectation that we’d be getting players signed to a longer term in order to solidify our future (yes, I realize that Sam Reinhart is only signed for three years but he’s also from here and so perhaps he’s likelier to resign here after becoming a UFA).

 

To Minnesota:  Elias Pettersson

To Vancouver:  Brady Tkachuk

 

To Edmonton: Brock Boeser

To Vancouver:  Joel Player NameEk

 

To Florida:  JT Miller

To Vancouver:  Sam Reinhart + draft pick

 

To Vegas:  Bo Horvat

To Vancouver:  William Karlsson

 

B.Tkachuk-Reinhart-Dickinson

Podkolzin-Karlsson-Garland

Pearson-Player NameEk-Hoglander

Motte-Lammiko-Bailey

 

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Hamonic

Burroughs-Poolman

 

Demko

Halak

Since when is Tkachuk in Minnesota or Ericksson Ek in Edmonton? 

[Patel Bure]

30 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

Since when is Tkachuk in Minnesota or Ericksson Ek in Edmonton? 

Yikes.  Will edit.  I had re-edited my original post and forgot to switch the teams around.  Thanks for the heads up.