[Discussion] *BOOM* It's Been Blown Up, Who Goes, What's The Value?

[wai_lai416]

lol u can blow it up all u want unless the team/player turns it around you'll be selling for pennies on the dollar. if Pettersson and Boesers are all trash like the fans here are calling them. who would give up a 1st + prospect for them?

 

miller and horvat unless you are eating up a chunk of their salary which contending theam would be able to afford them? if they are going to non contending teams unless it's a sign and trade they won't give you much for just 1 year of them. 

[qwijibo]

2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

For me, I wouldn’t “blow it up,” but rather, attempt to make lateral moves in which we accept a slight down grade with the expectation that we’d be getting players signed to a longer term in order to solidify our future (yes, I realize that Sam Reinhart is only signed for three years but he’s also from here and so perhaps he’s likelier to resign here after becoming a UFA).

 

To Ottawa:  Elias Pettersson

To Vancouver:  Brady Tkachuk

 

To Minnesota: Brock Boeser

To Vancouver:  Joel Player NameEk

 

To Florida:  JT Miller

To Vancouver:  Sam Reinhart + draft pick

 

To Vegas:  Bo Horvat

To Vancouver:  William Karlsson

 

B.Tkachuk-Reinhart-Dickinson

Podkolzin-Karlsson-Garland

Pearson-Player NameEk-Hoglander

Motte-Lammiko-Bailey

 

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Hamonic

Burroughs-Poolman

 

Demko

Halak

Ottawa just named Tkachuk team captain after locking him up for 8 years.  They want guys who are committed to being there. I doubt they have interest in swapping him for Pettersson. (Who grr we kid out almost as long and ended up taking a 3 year bridge contract). Also. Pettersson has looked disinterested since he came back.  Tkachuk has been engaged and doing what he does. 

[KKnight]

14 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Simple question.

 

Every other thread is a fire Benning/Fire Green thread.  I want Green gone yesterday, only gave him 30 games this season but hoping he's gone by the 20 mark.  Benning I'd keep until the end of next season/2023 draft with the provision that he can NOT trade picks

 

But everyone is also stating get rid of the key pieces.  Pettersson/Horvat/Miller

 

So this is a VERY simple premise.

 

Who do you keep and who do you trade and what do you think is the value for the player?

 

Miller: 1st, 2nd, Blue Chip prospect for a 1st line c/w near PPG player under contract

Horvat: 1st, 2nd or Blue Chip prospect for a quality 2A centre and defensive gem

 

See how it goes?

 

Let's see what you consider expendable and what the return you feel should be for it

I would check in on the islanders and see if we could snag Dobson in a trade for Miller. With Pulock locked in long term, they might be willing to listen. But, I view Miller as an offseason trade. Players who might be available. I could see them entertaining a Boeser deal. Not really on board with that. Motte, Halak are players who have the strongest likelihood of being dealt if we fail to turn this around. 

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, Kelly Green said:

Trade no one until 10 games under the new coaching staff is what I would do.

 

Selling low is never a good idea

Every GM in the league would love to add Horvat or Miller.   Guys win cups by making those sort of moves.   We could retain to make the return massive on both guys and just take our lumps.   Might mean EP goes too .... and we'd be right back to square one again.    The most we probably can do without the core just giving up like they did in EDM and Buffalo, is moving one of them.    Not making the playoffs this year would be a total waste of Miller so hope we still can do it.   A lot of hockey left...

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, KKnight said:

I would check in on the islanders and see if we could snag Dobson in a trade for Miller. With Pulock locked in long term, they might be willing to listen. But, I view Miller as an offseason trade. Players who might be available. I could see them entertaining a Boeser deal. Not really on board with that. Motte, Halak are players who have the strongest likelihood of being dealt if we fail to turn this around. 

I doubt Miller would get us Dobson, but Horvat might.   If Miller could get us Dobson we should make the trade right now.   Actually think we should consider EP as well.   His stock is lower, but i'm sure teams would line up.   With Barkov out i wonder if Florida might be interested.  With Miller too that is.   I don't think any player is safe at this point and they really shouldn't be either. 

 

Edit:  With the exception of Demko. We trade him might as well pull the plug on the entire thing and start all over.  Look forward to the late 2020's ... ugh. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol u can blow it up all u want unless the team/player turns it around you'll be selling for pennies on the dollar. if Pettersson and Boesers are all trash like the fans here are calling them. who would give up a 1st + prospect for them?

 

miller and horvat unless you are eating up a chunk of their salary which contending theam would be able to afford them? if they are going to non contending teams unless it's a sign and trade they won't give you much for just 1 year of them. 

We can retain 50% on three players.   Only teams that will trade for EP would be a team with an injured C near the deadline despite that.   But pretty much everyone else is an asset we could work with in a trade really.    If Barzal goes down i'd go hard after Dobson.   Would mean Miller or Horvat - and likely Hamonic to make it work for both teams.   That return is enticing given what we actually need.   I'd trade EP or even Demko if the return is good enough. 

[IBatch]

15 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

I'm not opposed to trading the players that you suggested (and for the value that you suggested), but I would move these guys at the trade deadline if we are *way* out of it.  Teams always overpay at the trade deadline and so guys like Horvat, Miller, and Boeser would fetch us massive premiums at that time.  

Yep.   That said don't wait if the deal is infront of you.   

[IBatch]

One thing i will say - is pretty much any coach is going to have a hard time with the amount of roster changes we've made over the past two seasons.   And if we go there (trading a blue chipper) might as well go all in on a re-set.   And expect another couple down seasons to boot.   Might as well start the threads now "it's been 11 years and two playoffs " ugh.    That said maybe that's the medicine we need ...

[BPA]

So soft rebuild/retool vs a full rebuild. 

 

I would keep the players on ELC and players that want to be here during the "rebuild" as it will be once again a tough and depressing time.

 

Trade everyone else for top dollar (tier 1 prospects and #1 draft picks).  Go full on BUF / ARI scorched earth mode.  Get fans excited on the multiple 1sts and 2nd in the next 2 drafts.  Pray for lady luck to finally grant the Canucks the 1st overall pick.

 

Lol

[Gurn]

Trade any, or all,  depending on what you get back.

[Patel Bure]

4 hours ago, IBatch said:

One thing i will say - is pretty much any coach is going to have a hard time with the amount of roster changes we've made over the past two seasons.   And if we go there (trading a blue chipper) might as well go all in on a re-set.   And expect another couple down seasons to boot.   Might as well start the threads now "it's been 11 years and two playoffs " ugh.    That said maybe that's the medicine we need ...

It’s why I still contend that “the TSN turning point” for this core just may have been that 2020 off season in which Benning didn’t pull the trigger on that Arizona deal at the time.  Obviously, we aren’t privy to all the facts but from what I gather, Arizona wanted Atleast 1-2 of Podkolzin and Demko if they were going to be taking on 2 years worth of Player Name, Beagle, Roussel, Baertschi, etc.  In retrospect, I believe Benning should have made that deal and stuck with all three of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, while moving guys like Virtanen and Gaudette for draft picks (or, include Virtanen as part of the AZ deal and get someone like Darcy Kuemper added to the package as well).

 

To AZ:  Beagle, Roussel, Erikss0n, Baertschi, Virtanen, Podkolzin, Demko

 

To Vancouver:  OEL, Garland, Kuemper

 

2020-2021:

 

Miller-Pettersson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Boeser

Hoglander-####-Garland

Motte-Sutter-MacEwen

 

Hughes-Tanev

OEL-Myers

Edler-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Kuemper

 

And given the Covid “poo poo” contracts that were being dished out in the 2020 off season, we could have gotten a solid center for that 3rd line spot on a one year garbage deal (ie Andreas Athanasiou?).  I’m not sure if the math would have added up cap wise for the above, but that is something that I would have attempted.  Guys like Miller, Myers, Toffoli, and Ferland were specifically brought in so that this core could compete now and I’m starting to believe that Benning let this core down post 2020 bubble playoffs.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Boeser

Hoglander-Athanasiou-Garland

Motte-Sutter-MacEwen

 

Hughes-Tanev

OEL-Myers

Edler-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Kuemper

 

I believe that the above line-up would have punched a ticket into the playoffs and would have “kept the party going” so to speak.

 

I know using Demko and Podkolzin as sweeteners would have been a very difficult decision to make, but Benning pretty much married himself to to the Markstrom, Tanev, Stecher core when we brought in guys like Miller, Ferland, Myers, and Toffoli.  The 2020 off season moves understandably must have come across as a deviation from the plan and must have confused players.  

Edited November 17, 2021 by Patel Bure

[BCNate]

Nothing big happens on the trade front until we have a new coach in place.  I could see a few deals to fix the bottom of the lineup and PK in the near future though.

 

Our biggest trade chip in JT Miller, who I could see returning a youngish RHD, 1st and B prospect.  Quality of the RHD and Prospect will be determined on whether we retain or not.

 

Pearson, Myers, Halak, Hamonic, will also be on the block, with varying potential returns.

[IBatch]

20 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

It’s why I still contend that “the TSN turning point” for this core just may have been that 2020 off season in which Benning didn’t pull the trigger on that Arizona deal at the time.  Obviously, we aren’t privy to all the facts but from what I gather, Arizona wanted Atleast 1-2 of Podkolzin and Demko if they were going to be taking on 2 years worth of Player Name, Beagle, Roussel, Baertschi, etc.  In retrospect, I believe Benning should have made that deal and stuck with all three of Markstrom, Tanev, and Toffoli, while moving guys like Virtanen and Gaudette for draft picks (or, include Virtanen as part of the AZ deal and get someone like Darcy Kuemper added to the package as well).

 

To AZ:  Beagle, Roussel, Erikss0n, Baertschi, Virtanen, Podkolzin, Demko

 

To Vancouver:  OEL, Garland, Kuemper

 

2020-2021:

 

Miller-Pettersson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Boeser

Hoglander-####-Garland

Motte-Sutter-MacEwen

 

Hughes-Tanev

OEL-Myers

Edler-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Kuemper

 

And given the Covid “poo poo” contracts that were being dished out in the 2020 off season, we could have gotten a solid center for that 3rd line spot on a one year garbage deal (ie Andreas Athanasiou?).  I’m not sure if the math would have added up cap wise for the above, but that is something that I would have attempted.  Guys like Miller, Myers, Toffoli, and Ferland were specifically brought in so that this core could compete now and I’m starting to believe that Benning let this core down post 2020 bubble playoffs.

 

Miller-Pettersson-Toffoli

Pearson-Horvat-Boeser

Hoglander-Athanasiou-Garland

Motte-Sutter-MacEwen

 

Hughes-Tanev

OEL-Myers

Edler-Stecher

 

Markstrom

Kuemper

 

I believe that the above line-up would have punched a ticket into the playoffs and would have “kept the party going” so to speak.

 

I know using Demko and Podkolzin as sweeteners would have been a very difficult decision to make, but Benning pretty much married himself to to the Markstrom, Tanev, Stecher core when we brought in guys like Miller, Ferland, Myers, and Toffoli.  The 2020 off season moves understandably must have come across as a deviation from the plan and must have confused players.  

I don't buy into players been too upset of guys leaving - it's a business and it happens all the time.   JB was clear not everyone would be back, and the CDC had been talking about it for the entire season.    The price was way too steep for the OEL trade.   And the players left because they either didn't like their offers or wouldn't wait any longer.   Both Markstrom and Tanev got deals.   TT might have too had he waited, but doubt it would have been any better then the one he got.   All three guys are getting long in the tooth as well.    Doubt those deals will age well.   OELs probably won't either - but Garlands looks just fine.   Fits the age better.   Demko of course is a better deal then Markstrom...guys getting peppered just like he was in Vancouver, and just like Vancouver he's holding the fort in CAL...for now.   Can't expect him to do that for the duration of his deal and he won't.   

 

Just a year later and EP and QHs are now getting paid like blue chip stars on their second deals.   Where the heck would that money come from anyways? If we signed Markstrom, Tanev and TT, it would have meant we blew our wad a year earlier, the cost would have been two firsts at the lowest and we still wouldn't have the cash for EP and QHs. People seem to have short term memories on these issues, it was hashed out massively a couple seasons ago.   

[Kelly Green]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Every GM in the league would love to add Horvat or Miller.   Guys win cups by making those sort of moves.   We could retain to make the return massive on both guys and just take our lumps.   Might mean EP goes too .... and we'd be right back to square one again.    The most we probably can do without the core just giving up like they did in EDM and Buffalo, is moving one of them.    Not making the playoffs this year would be a total waste of Miller so hope we still can do it.   A lot of hockey left...

I don't see the full value coming back with the team playing this poorly but moving Miller for a top 4 D and draft pick(s) could be the best move right now. Moving Horvat or anyone under 25 on the roster would be a mistake until they have a chance to play together under a new coaching staff imo.  I'm not ready to blow it up and give up on the young core players yet.

[IBatch]

19 minutes ago, Kelly Green said:

I don't see the full value coming back with the team playing this poorly but moving Miller for a top 4 D and draft pick(s) could be the best move right now. Moving Horvat or anyone under 25 on the roster would be a mistake until they have a chance to play together under a new coaching staff imo.  I'm not ready to blow it up and give up on the young core players yet.

Last year it was Pearson ... as in the low hanging fruit ... in the end he re-signed.   Maybe Miller will do the same.   He's not really that much older then Horvat either.   I'm not ready to blow it up either.   But the same obvious holes are keeping us back.   Really if EP was playing like a boss then trading Miller would be that much simpler.   But he isn't.    Most of his points have just been because he's on the ice and touched the puck .... not from a boss like play.   Last year without EP we also had our best stretch of hockey.   Not saying we should give up on any of these guys yet .... rather hope we can still turn things around.    But if things are still awful at the TDL, this would be the time to pull the trigger on a blue chip forward to help our D.   Right side.   OEL Myers is fine 5 x 5.   QHs Poolman isn't terrible either.    But our third pairing and PK is just bad so far.   Hamonic should help and Burroughs has been decent enough.   So maybe they can work things out...tonight's game i'd like to see us play them harder then any game so far regardless of the score.   

[mll]

On 11/17/2021 at 6:07 AM, Patel Bure said:

For me, I wouldn’t “blow it up,” but rather, attempt to make lateral moves in which we accept a slight down grade with the expectation that we’d be getting players signed to a longer term in order to solidify our future (yes, I realize that Sam Reinhart is only signed for three years but he’s also from here and so perhaps he’s likelier to resign here after becoming a UFA).

 

To Ottawa:  Elias Pettersson

To Vancouver:  Brady Tkachuk

 

To Minnesota: Brock Boeser

To Vancouver:  Joel Player NameEk

 

To Florida:  JT Miller

To Vancouver:  Sam Reinhart + draft pick

 

To Vegas:  Bo Horvat

To Vancouver:  William Karlsson

 

B.Tkachuk-Reinhart-Dickinson

Podkolzin-Karlsson-Garland

Pearson-Player NameEk-Hoglander

Motte-Lammiko-Bailey

 

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Hamonic

Burroughs-Poolman

 

Demko

Halak

 

Senators just gave Tkachuk the C and signed him to 8 years.  They clearly don't see him going anywhere.  With how Pettersson is struggling and his slight frame (ie can he withstand the playoffs when things get so much tighter) - not sure there would be much of a good return right now. 

 

EriksonEk (typo voluntary) is significantly more valuable to the Wild than a player like Boeser.  Ek has become indispensable to the Wild's success and embodies everything they want to be about.  He is a player they are building around and is definitely not available.  The Wild have had so many calls on him.  Minnesota have wingers developing who they hope will play key roles and can't afford a player like Boeser anyway.  They likely can't even bring Fiala back for lack of cap space.

 

Don't really see why Florida does that.  They are winning right now.  They've found the right equilibrium to have success.

 

Can't imagine Benning wanting to trade Horvat unless he asks out.  Vegas likely also holds on to Karlsson - cost/roster certainty with their window open over Horvat being soon UFA.  

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by mll

[Canuck Luck]

I would be ok with blowing it up.

 

I would def keep Garland, Hoglander, Podkolzin, and Demko.

 

The rest can all go as far as I am concerned at this point. Totally apathy has set in for me.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Canuck Luck

[sockeye]

Re: full re-build (finally, thankfully):

 

Who stays:  Horvat (good player, reasonable cap hit and great at faceoffs), Petterson (due to low trade value right now and high cap hit), Demko, Hughes, Hoglander, Garland, OEL (maybe), Podkholzin and maybe Myers. 

 

Who goes:  I'm open to trading Boeser (too weak defensively and a poor skater but has a great shot), Miller and anybody else.

Edited November 18, 2021 by sockeye

[Ohthehumanity]

On 11/16/2021 at 3:57 PM, Warhippy said:

Sorry to disappoint old bean

Ayup old chap!

[BigTramFan]

It depends on the definition of a "rebuild". If we are talking a proper rebuild then to me that is trading away your core players.

 

I still believe in the core of this team and I think the main issue is poor coaching and systems. This should be addressed now. I am in favour of firing Green and getting a more experienced coach. Right now.

 

A separate issue and one which needs to be addressed if we want to contend is: we need to get tougher as a team and have some pushback against other teams. I would be happy to change supporting personnel to get tougher/bigger/meaner. But we also need Horvat and our leaders to LEAD the way on this. Don't turn your back on your brothers when they are getting harassed and picked on by the competition. Fight back. Show some backbone.

 

Change these two things ^^^ before any thoughts of a rebuild.

 

I think the core players of this team are EP, QH, Horvat, Demko. Do not sell these guys until we have had a chance to get the right supporting cast and the right coaching systems. We have waited this long to draft these core players and have them develop. I don't want to go through that for another 5 years until we know they cannot succeed.

 

I really like these players as supports for the core: Miller, Boeser, Garland, Hoglander, OEL. I don't know what we have in Podkolzin yet, so no point in trading him either.

 

Apart from the above players, I am happy to trade any other asset for a fair return. In particular I want the return to be tougher than the player we are trading away. I am quite aware that most of the players that aren't listed above are not worth much in a trade. But that doesn't mean team improvements can't be made.

 

JB appears to be asleep at the wheel.

 

For example, I remember commenting in the off season that we clearly didn't have enough bottom 6 C depth, and Sutter or Dickinson would be injured at some point and then there was no real cover for those guys. This wasn't some amazing revelation - it was clear to a lowly hockey fan. What did JB do about it? Nothing. We started the season without Sutter. After a few warmup games it suddenly became obvious enough to do something. Then he traded Juolevi for Lammikko. So we got some bottom 6 C depth to cover for Sutter but we traded a 3LD to do so and our PK still sucks. Not exactly dealing with the problem. In the mean time, these players have been available for free off waivers, would have helped our PK and made us tougher, plus would fit under our cap limit: Derek Grant 4C, Blake Comeau 4RW, Jacob Larsson 3LD. Why no action?