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Distribution of the blame - who is at fault?

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Dazzle

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Owners:  Jim, we want you to fire Travis

Jim: Travis, you're fired

Owners: oh and Jim?  You're fired too

 

New GM, new coaching staff = new team

 

but it's up to the owners to get the ball rolling. Jim isn't going to make the decision to fire Travis. He needs Travis around to collect most of the blame.

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22 minutes ago, CJ44 said:

That fact that players like Markstrom and Tanev walked out of here without anything in return should have cost JB his job, or close to it. The Toffoli trade was the last straw for me, absolutely needless to trade for him, give up what we did then let him walk for nothing after a partial season.

It wasn’t a partial season when they traded for him. It would have been nice if that trade never happened but c’mon. There were circumstances 

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3 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Owners:  Jim, we want you to fire Travis

Jim: Travis, you're fired

Owners: oh and Jim?  You're fired too

 

New GM, new coaching staff = new team

 

but it's up to the owners to get the ball rolling. Jim isn't going to make the decision to fire Travis. He needs Travis around to collect most of the blame.

Or he’s just too flipping nice. I don’t think he still has a job to collect the blame Lmao 

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Heard on Donnie and Dhali today that since Green has been the head coach (2017), the Canucks PK has been ranked #26 in the league.

 

Newell Brown wasn't the problem. His special teams in ANA is near the tops in the league this year

 

Green's gotta go

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1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

In summary, everyone, minus Ian Clark.

 

Let's start with Aquilini ownership:

 

- accused of being meddling - but it's their team.

- problem is that they hired the wrong people, in hindsight. Benning is undeniably a problem, but not nearly as big of a problem as the other ones.

- not making the right decisions when they needed to. (Extending Green, not firing Green when they could've done it.)

- insisting on his mistakes without an apparent plan to fix it.

- not adding enough support for his GMs, via assistant GMs. Team President role is obviously very demanding and not all people can thrive in that.

 

Benning

 

- there is no other way around this, but he is a mistake. Perhaps he's a victim of Aquilini and how he deals with this team.

- Benning did a good job this offseason, but the team is so unbelievably toxic, and he's been at the controls, from start to finish. Wasn't able to find the source of the problem. Player Name, Roussel, Beagle weren't the problems, clearly. Neither was Newell Brown.

- spent a lot of money on 'established' players. Contrary to how Gillis did it, he spent little on his supplementary players (but had a core gifted by previous GMs)

- pro scouting - minus Garland, Miller - has been suspect. No concept of team chemistry.

- Keeping Green. This is a coach that has been mediocre from start to finish. Minus the bubble, Green is comparable to Willie Desjardins.

- Perhaps trusting Green too much. Green hasn't proven to be a good manager of players, so his input on the roster shouldn't be considered.

- poor communication of ideas to the public. Making big promises without the ability to follow through.

 

Green

- mediocre coach at best. No record to show that he is capable beyond 50 percent, despite huge roster overhaul, and multiple chances to lift team up.

- poor coaching tactics. No matching up game (unlike AV), and no adaptation. We are still playing like we had the same team in the bubble. Insistence on using bag skates as an evaluation tool. Playing favourites, without any accountability.

- poor assistant coaches - Baumgartner is a nice guy, but shouldn't be coaching at the NHL level. Jason King is extremely unproven.

 

Everyone should be cleaned house, except Aquilini since he's the owner. Maybe this is a huge wakeup call that the way Aqua runs his team is garbage.

 

Green is not a good coach. Stop the excuses. Shouldn't even be in the NHL, tbh.

 

Benning is not a good GM, even if he has a track record as a scout. The fact that Aquilini is dragging his feet on both these issues demonstrates that he is unable to make the moves that he needed to.

 

Finally the fans, the people who complain about Aquilini. A bunch of fans say he meddles too much, while others say he doesn't help the team when it needs leadership. The coach obviously is not good, so fire him early. Instead, this toxicity is allowed to build up.

 

Solutions

 

- trade Horvat at the trade deadline. He is due for a contract and there is no sense in keeping him. Time for a new era. Horvat doesn't stand up for his teammates

- trade Miller - 29 and UFA coming up. A first round pick was used to obtain him, so we can get someone/picks decent back. Miller is a good leader.

- if leadership is a question mark, this will spark a reset

 

These two trades alone will benefit the Canucks long term, in addition to a high draft pick.

 

Replacements

- need to get a proven leader in the room, someone with a lot of experience. Age shouldn't be a factor. I don't think we have this in the room, except Miller

- Bruce Boudreau for exciting season success, or Guy Boucher for painful, but stable defense. Not Green, not WD, not this AHL calibre staff.

5% ownership:  After our loss to the Kings in 2012, Gillis brought forth a proposal to ownership in which the Canucks would rebuild.  The twins, Kesler, etc., would all be moved for 1st rounders and elite prospects.  Instead, the Aqua family veto’d Gillis’ plans and basically forced Gills to sign guys like the twins, Burrows, Edler, etc to bad contracts with NTC’s and NMC’s.   We missed selling high on our top players and by the time Benning took over in 2014, the values of those players had greatly diminished.

 

10% Benning:   How or why Benning walked away from Toffoli and kept Virtanen is mind boggling.  A few days ago, I suggested that Benning made a mistake in not hanging into all four of Stecher, Markstrom, Toffoli, and Tanev, but I now realize that Benning made the correct decision here.  Benning signed Hamonic, traded for Schmidt, and insulated Demko with Holtby.  On paper, Benning did everything perfectly............but I think his loyalty to Green cost him big time.

 

20% players:  Guys like Pettersson and Brock should be better.  Dickinson was a top PK’er in Dallas and is now severely underperforming.  Schmidt couldn’t produce offense in Vancouver and is now flourishing again in Winnipeg.  OEL can’t produce offense here.  Although systems are very likely a huge part of this (will get to that later), the onus is still on the players to “right the ship” or express their concerns to the coaches.

 

65% coaching:  one thing that has frustrated me about this management and ownership group is that while they’ve always been willing to pay a premium for veteran players with intangibles, they’ve always tried to skimp money on coaching via AHL promotions.  While I applaud guys like Willie Desjardins and Travis Green for their efforts, both coaches have not been able to maximize or personalize  their strategies to individual player strengths.  Tryamkin, Nate Schmidt, Dickinson, OEL, Holtby, etc, etc. all came here and saw significant dips in their offense or overall level of play.  Tryamkin was a good young defender that was told to “act like Chris Pronger” for instance.  Coaching is the biggest reason why I believe that the Canucks haven’t been able to take the next step post bubble playoffs.  A team with this much talent shouldn’t be struggling so much with the power play.  Even in the absence of an RHC (something that Benning should have addressed by the way), our PK shouldn’t be this atrocious.

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12 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Heard on Donnie and Dhali today that since Green has been the head coach (2017), the Canucks PK has been ranked #26 in the league.

 

Newell Brown wasn't the problem. His special teams in ANA is near the tops in the league this year

 

Green's gotta go

I fully regret and retract what I said about Newell Brown. 

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2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

In summary, everyone, minus Ian Clark.

 

Let's start with Aquilini ownership:

 

- accused of being meddling - but it's their team.

- problem is that they hired the wrong people, in hindsight. Benning is undeniably a problem, but not nearly as big of a problem as the other ones.

- not making the right decisions when they needed to. (Extending Green, not firing Green when they could've done it.)

- insisting on his mistakes without an apparent plan to fix it.

- not adding enough support for his GMs, via assistant GMs. Team President role is obviously very demanding and not all people can thrive in that.

 

Benning

 

- there is no other way around this, but he is a mistake. Perhaps he's a victim of Aquilini and how he deals with this team.

- Benning did a good job this offseason, but the team is so unbelievably toxic, and he's been at the controls, from start to finish. Wasn't able to find the source of the problem. Player Name, Roussel, Beagle weren't the problems, clearly. Neither was Newell Brown.

- spent a lot of money on 'established' players. Contrary to how Gillis did it, he spent little on his supplementary players (but had a core gifted by previous GMs)

- pro scouting - minus Garland, Miller - has been suspect. No concept of team chemistry.

- Keeping Green. This is a coach that has been mediocre from start to finish. Minus the bubble, Green is comparable to Willie Desjardins.

- Perhaps trusting Green too much. Green hasn't proven to be a good manager of players, so his input on the roster shouldn't be considered.

- poor communication of ideas to the public. Making big promises without the ability to follow through.

 

Green

- mediocre coach at best. No record to show that he is capable beyond 50 percent, despite huge roster overhaul, and multiple chances to lift team up.

- poor coaching tactics. No matching up game (unlike AV), and no adaptation. We are still playing like we had the same team in the bubble. Insistence on using bag skates as an evaluation tool. Playing favourites, without any accountability.

- poor assistant coaches - Baumgartner is a nice guy, but shouldn't be coaching at the NHL level. Jason King is extremely unproven.

 

Everyone should be cleaned house, except Aquilini since he's the owner. Maybe this is a huge wakeup call that the way Aqua runs his team is garbage.

 

Green is not a good coach. Stop the excuses. Shouldn't even be in the NHL, tbh.

 

Benning is not a good GM, even if he has a track record as a scout. The fact that Aquilini is dragging his feet on both these issues demonstrates that he is unable to make the moves that he needed to.

 

Finally the fans, the people who complain about Aquilini. A bunch of fans say he meddles too much, while others say he doesn't help the team when it needs leadership. The coach obviously is not good, so fire him early. Instead, this toxicity is allowed to build up.

 

Solutions

 

- trade Horvat at the trade deadline. He is due for a contract and there is no sense in keeping him. Time for a new era. Horvat doesn't stand up for his teammates

- trade Miller - 29 and UFA coming up. A first round pick was used to obtain him, so we can get someone/picks decent back. Miller is a good leader.

- if leadership is a question mark, this will spark a reset

 

These two trades alone will benefit the Canucks long term, in addition to a high draft pick.

 

Replacements

- need to get a proven leader in the room, someone with a lot of experience. Age shouldn't be a factor. I don't think we have this in the room, except Miller

- Bruce Boudreau for exciting season success, or Guy Boucher for painful, but stable defense. Not Green, not WD, not this AHL calibre staff.

It’s ridiculus that you write this post because you have defended Benning and Green in absurdum.

 

Is it Aquilini paying your salary and this is his way of damage control?

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13 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

Still a firm believer that this is on Green. Benning should be fired but only for keeping Green around too long. Should never had extended him. JB has done everything he can to make a great team. Starting with nothing years ago. I like this team and the players (they can be better) there are a few holes but like I said I believe in these guys just like Benning does. Keeping Green is JBs downfall 

Benning did what a GM was supposed to do this offseason to improve. Green is still here and there is no valid reason.

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1 hour ago, Devron44 said:

It wasn’t a partial season when they traded for him. It would have been nice if that trade never happened but c’mon. There were circumstances 

I didn't say it was a partial NHL schedule, I said Toffoli only played a partial season for us. Toffoli played 17 games for us, 10 regular season and 7 post season....explain to me how that's not a partial season. He was acquired in February.

 

If you say there were circumstances, please share. I'm having trouble finding a circumstance where for giving up a 2nd rounder and a good prospect for a player to play 17 games and then walk once the seasons done is a good move. the ONLY way you make that trade is if you can re-sign that player within a reasonable timeframe or KNOW you can re-sign him in the off-season. This team was not in a position to be trading away assets for rental players to play 17 game then walk....we were not contending for a deep playoff run - the only teams that trade assets for rental players are Stanley Cup contending teams- that's why they call them rental players.

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31 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

Still a firm believer that this is on Green. Benning should be fired but only for keeping Green around too long. Should never had extended him. JB has done everything he can to make a great team. Starting with nothing years ago. I like this team and the players (they can be better) there are a few holes but like I said I believe in these guys just like Benning does. Keeping Green is JBs downfall 

Yeah, I never really saw the need or reason for extending Green, seemed there were better options out there. This roster has talent, they just aren't getting much out of them at the moment. 

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14 minutes ago, CJ44 said:

Toffoli played 17 games for us, 10 regular season and 7 post season....explain to me how that's not a partial season. He was acquired in February.

 

If you say there were circumstances, please share. I'm having trouble finding a circumstance where for giving up a 2nd rounder and a good prospect for a player to play 17 games and then walk once the seasons done is a good move. the ONLY way you make that trade is if you can re-sign that player within a reasonable timeframe or KNOW you can re-sign him in the off-season. This team was not in a position to be trading away assets for rental players to play 17 game then walk....we were not contending for a deep playoff run - the only teams that trade assets for rental players are Stanley Cup contending teams- that's why they call them rental players.

Because the cap remained the same and the trade happened before the league was abruptly shutdown??

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Somehow Gillis' name gets brought up in a post about what is plaguing the Canucks in 2021.  Obsessed..

Anyways, there needs to be a top-down clean up.  Good to see a better portion of CDC has come around to this idea.  A bit late but not everybody can be ahead of the curve.

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8 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

Because the cap remained the same and the trade happened before the league was abruptly shutdown??

The team had 7 months to figure out how to sign him, but Jim is on record saying they "ran out of time". In fact, they didn't even offer him a contract. We have to Stop blaming Covid for things that were in Jim's control, Covid didn't sign all those contracts. Every other team in this league dealt with this as well. The real reason we couldn't sign him? Bad contracts and poor cap management, and getting no assets back for players we let walk for nothing, including a goalie in the early running for the Vezina this year.....

 

Jacob Markstrom Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

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7 minutes ago, AV. said:

Somehow Gillis' name gets brought up in a post about what is plaguing the Canucks in 2021.  Obsessed..

Might as well cry about Jack Gordon trading Cam Neely.  Or another GM trading Rick Vaive & Bill Derlago for Tiger Williams & Jerry Butler.  Has the same relevance *today*.

Edited by NewbieCanuckFan
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Just now, CJ44 said:

The team had 7 months to figure out how to sign him, but Jim is on record saying they "ran out of time". In fact, they didn't even offer him a contract. Stop blaming Covid for things that were in Jim's control, every other team in this league dealt with this as well. The real reason we couldn't sign him? Bad contracts and poor cap management, and getting no assets back for players we let walk for nothing, including a goalie in the early running for the Vezina this year.....

I’ll blame whatever I want. I have my own opinion on the matter as a matter of fact. Trading your starting goalie Idk easier said then done. If it was my fantasy pool sure. This is real life and winning matters. We were battling for a playoff spot. Trading Markstrom says to Young team. We are done here boys. 
 

That off-season was a mess. Should have kept Tanev if anyone. That’s what should have happened imo. Toffoli I don’t care at all about that. It sucked at the time and I personally wanted to wait another year to do something like that but Brock was injured and JB pulled the trigger. This is all Before COVID and yes COVID can be blamed cause the season was literally OVER! Cap Was suppose to go up. Not everyone has as much patience as you or I. Toffoli is overrated af. Take Garland over him any day 

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49 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

Still a firm believer that this is on Green. Benning should be fired but only for keeping Green around too long. Should never had extended him. JB has done everything he can to make a great team. Starting with nothing years ago. I like this team and the players (they can be better) there are a few holes but like I said I believe in these guys just like Benning does. Keeping Green is JBs downfall 

Not that he's without blame here... but I do find it pretty funny that Benning is being crucified for not bringing in appropriate support players to win draws and PK... When the past few years he's been endlessly crucified for overpaying support players who 'do nothing but win draws and PK' :lol:

 

Anyhoo... Man I hope something changes soon. Coach seems the most obvious to see if/how players respond. Whoever doesn't respond, start looking for trades. If the majority of the team doesn't respond from that, we have way bigger problems.

 

But this roster has too much talent to play those badly. Something is clearly 'off'.

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