New GM the 3 year plan. [Discussion]

[hammertime]

So one morning soon we wake up and JB is Fired!!!!!!!!!

 

I am trying to be completely objective here because I am a Canucks fan it is hard. But if I am a new GM coming in with no loyalties to any of the players looking at the team and how it is built contrasted with the next 2 years draft classes I'm saying look Frank you crapped the bed last time when you tried to re tool. If you want to re build properly you have to fully commit. In fact I think most of the fans of the team would be on board and supportive. I also look at how Russian players are ostracized at the draft as something that can potentially be exploited in our favor. The Canucks should go all in for Michkov in 2023.

 

Bo deserves better than he ever got from us and it shows he's given up on us. Miller I highly doubt re signs with us he also has incredible trade value, Boeser's re up will be in the 7m range for a guy touted as a 40 goal scorer he's never cracked 30 and is wayyyy too soft for a guy who's 6'1 210. 

 

In return something like three 1sts, three blue chippers, three 2nds and some short term cap dumps talking bout guys like Looch 2 years 5.2 Bo would probably be happy on the Calgary Canucks. 

 

Knowing our draft lotto luck and the NHL's stigma towards Russians we can potentially buy relatively low moving into position to draft Michkov. I say relatively because comparative to Wright/Bedard he's a guy a smart GM might actually be able to move up to draft. 

 

Your 2024 Vancouver Canucks 

 

Coach Igor Larionov

 

Michkov EP Podkolzin

Nils XXX Klimovich

Miroshnichenko/Yurov XXX Garland

XXX Focht Lockwood

 

Hughes  Nemec/Jiricek

OEL XXX

Bone Woo

 

Demko

XXX

 

 

Just a random brain bubble I had today. Of course not to be taken too seriously. 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by hammertime

[drummer4now]

[Patel Bure]

Trade.....

 

-Horvat for a 1st and a prospect

-Boeser for a 1st and a prospect

-Miller for a 1st and a prospect 

 

At the trade deadline.....

 

If we are out of playoff contention at that time.

 

Tyler Myers becomes the new captain.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Patel Bure]

24 minutes ago, hammertime said:

So one morning soon we wake up and JB is Fired!!!!!!!!!

 

I am trying to be completely objective here because I am a Canucks fan it is hard. But if I am a new GM coming in with no loyalties to any of the players looking at the team and how it is built contrasted with the next 2 years draft classes I'm saying look Frank you crapped the bed last time when you tried to re tool. If you want to re build properly you have to fully commit. In fact I think most of the fans of the team would be on board and supportive. I also look at how Russian players are ostracized at the draft as something that can potentially be exploited in our favor. The Canucks should go all in for Michkov in 2023.

 

Bo deserves better than he ever got from us and it shows he's given up on us. Miller I highly doubt re signs with us he also has incredible trade value, Boeser's re up will be in the 7m range for a guy touted as a 40 goal scorer he's never cracked 30 and is wayyyy too soft for a guy who's 6'1 210. 

 

In return something like three 1sts, three blue chippers, three 2nds and some short term cap dumps talking bout guys like Looch 2 years 5.2 Bo would probably be happy on the Calgary Canucks. Really stink it up this year and next. 

 

Knowing our draft lotto luck and the NHL's stigma towards Russians we can potentially buy relatively low moving into position to draft Michkov. I say relatively because comparative to Wright/Bedard he's a guy a smart GM might actually be able to move up to draft. 

 

You're 2024 Vancouver Canucks 

 

Coach Igor Larionov

 

Michkov EP Podkolzin

Nils XXX Klimovich

Miroshnichenko/Yurov XXX Garland

XXX Focht Lockwood

 

Hughes  Nemec/Jiricek

OEL XXX

Bone Woo

 

Demko

XXX

 

 

Just a random brain bubble I had today. Of course not to be taken too seriously. 

 

Sorry man.  Not interested in having Team Russia in the future.

[hammertime]

8 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Sorry man.  Not interested in having Team Russia in the future.

3 Russians and a Russian coach too much for you?? 

[Patel Bure]

15 minutes ago, hammertime said:

3 Russians and a Russian coach too much for you?? 

Probably.   
 

Just too many bad memories of Bure, Mogilny, Chubarov, and Tryamkin either floating or leaving us high and dry......although I will have to admit that I love Podkolzin.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Patel Bure

[hammertime]

1 hour ago, Patel Bure said:

Probably.   
 

Just too many bad memories of Bure, Mogilny, Chubarov, and Tryamkin either floating or leaving us high and dry......although I will have to admit that I love Podkolzin.

I feel that. When Bure held out and then went to the Panthers and was over a goal per game or whatever I took it pretty hard.  But honestly I think that's something that needs to be moved on from. I feel Larionov would be a great option for coach and when I think about that how amazing would Michkov, Podkolzin be? Objectively I don't think this core is good enough even if/when EP bounces back. Which He will. He's young and he's been reading his paper clippings. This period of struggle (man he looks terrible right now) will galvanize him. He's so incredibly competitive. 

 

So to me the Canucks are actually in a great position to reset and go full rebuild with 3 players who at the deadline would fetch a ransom. 

 

Considering the next core to be EP, Hoglander, Podkolzin, Hughes, supported by Garland, OEL, Myers.... They are in a far better position now to rebuild than when we could hardly give away Hamhuis, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen. 

JB has 3 Keslers and a better foundation.

Edited November 20, 2021 by hammertime

[Tank4Bedard]

2 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

-Horvat for a 1st and a prospect

-Boeser for a 1st and a prospect

-Miller for a 1st and a prospect 

Down! Not any prospect, a top prospect! 

[Crabcakes]

Granted, mistakes have been made by management.  Serious ones in the last 2 years.  What?  They harped on team culture and hanging on to culture carriers and now, there are zero players remaining from the pre-Benning period

 

Moving forward, building a TEAM should be priority 1.  How?  Continuity, give the boys time to bond, time to develop accountability to each other.  I'm not saying no deals but they have to be damn careful who they move

 

Rebuilding the re rebuild is a friggin joke. Don't even go there

[VegasCanuck]

We won a game, the plan to replace Benning has been canceled now…

 

 

[Tank4Bedard]

4 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

We won a game, the plan to replace Benning has been canceled now…

 

 

Proceeds to lose another 5 

[Tank4Bedard]

12 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Rebuilding the re rebuild is a friggin joke. Don't even go there

Mediocrity forever

[Crabcakes]

9 hours ago, DontMessMe said:

Mediocrity forever

Ya, quote part of my post because you don't want to deal with what I actually said.

 

This all depends on what you think is WRONG with the team.  

 

The players are not $&!#.  They are better on paper and 2 months ago we all thought (including Benning obviously) that this team was going to take the next step.  Why aren't they?

 

I think it's because the leadership group / culture carriers have been stripped.  This happened over a 2 year period.  You can't get rid of the old guard before the new young core is fully established.  Who were these players?  Edler, Tanev, Markstrom, Sutter.  It's no secret that Hughes was pissed off when Tanev was let go.  Does that have no impact on his and other players play?

 

When you have as much turnover as has happened to this team, there is a danger of losing their identity.  Horvat and Miller are clearly not enough to carry the culture forward easily.  Hell, I think that the reason why Schmidt wanted out was because the team had been damaged last year and this is part of the reason why the success that the bubble team had didn't carry forward.  And look, Schmidt on Winnipeg is performing like his old self again because the Jets have an identity.  Vegas took off in their first year because they found an identity quickly.  They latched on to the concept that they were the guys that nobody wanted and they were going to show the league that they were good and they sure did that.

 

So now, the Canucks have to find their identity again.  I don't know how long that will take

 

But turning the team over again is an exercise in futility and it's just not going to yield any magical results.  The players are human and human factors can't be ignored

[Patel Bure]

10 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Granted, mistakes have been made by management.  Serious ones in the last 2 years.  What?  They harped on team culture and hanging on to culture carriers and now, there are zero players remaining from the pre-Benning period

 

Moving forward, building a TEAM should be priority 1.  How?  Continuity, give the boys time to bond, time to develop accountability to each other.  I'm not saying no deals but they have to be damn careful who they move

 

Rebuilding the re rebuild is a friggin joke. Don't even go there

The plan was never to hang onto “culture carriers” such as Beagle, Roussel, Player Name, Sutter, Myers, etc.   The plan was to eventually move these guys out once our young core was established and once our young core were ready to be the culture carriers (ie Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes).  It’s one of the reasons why Benning made the AZ deal this past summer........he felt that our core was now established and that we were ready to compete.  We got off to a terrible start this season obviously but time will tell if we can turn the ship around.  We have looked much better these past two games.

[BPA]

Looking at Capfriendly, there a a couple of players that deals will expire and need to be renegotiated.  

 

Year 1 (this year)

 

Boeser is RFA.  So Canucks has some leverage but I think he becomes UFA if only a 1yr contact is signed.  So there is a danger of losing him if he just signs a QO.  Not sure if he can be traded during the season after a QO signing.  I know after an Arbitration signing, he can't be traded.  So would attempt to sign Boeser to a long term contract ... 6.5 to 7M x 6yrs (or more). Whatever the going rate is for a 25-35g scorer.  If he's holding out for more, then trade him for a 1st + top prospect + roster player. 

 

Motte is a UFA next year.  He's on a good cap hit of 1.225M.  Maybe a slight cap raise but keep the term low.  He's often injured.  So maybe ... 1.3M x 3yr. 

 

Halak was a temp back up.  Try bringing up DiPietro.   If he's not ready, bring back Halak or another cheap back up.

 

Lammikko.  Resign cheap as a 4th liner.

 

Year 2

 

OEL vs Myers.  I think there's too much cap hit on the D core vs what we are getting from the back end.  One of these players got to go.  I'd keep OEL as he helps with the PP and takes the pressure off QH to produce.  Myers has a M-NTC (10 team list) so he still can be traded with 2yr left at 6M.  Maybe could be traded (no retention) at TD for a 2nd / 3rd.

 

Miller. Love the energy.  He's a proven PPG player.  Not sure if he wants to stick around for a short/long rebuild.  Plus he's most likely wanting to get paid big time on what would be his last contract.  And he'll be UFA after his contract is up.  For those reasons,  it might be best to trade him for a Kings ransom.  His cap hit is insanely good.  Even better if we retain 50% to make it favorable to the other team.  Would fetch 1st, top prospect, and roster player. 

 

Horvat.  Like Miller would be a UFA in 2023/24 season.  But he's the captain and we can't lose both of our top faceoff guys.  So would try to resign him. He's a 20g / 60pt guy.  So probably a similar contract as Boeser. 6.5 to 7M x 6yr (or longer).  If he's holding out for more, then trade him for a 1st, top prospect,  and roster player.

 

Year 3

 

EP has to show he's regained his form and worth the contract he signed.  Still an RFA.  So really depends on how he performs.  I think he's better suited as a winger as his faceoff % is pretty bad.  But maybe it's OK if paired with a defensive winger (ie Dickinson/Motte?).  In any case, this is a wait and see.

 

Pearson and Dickinson.  Good guys but need to go for cap space.  Maybe keep Dickerson but only if his faceoff % gets above 50%.

 

Re-up Hogz, Hamonic, Burroughs.  Don't go crazy with the contracts.  Small cap and small term.  Cap management in effect.

[Crabcakes]

13 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

The plan was never to hang onto “culture carriers” such as Beagle, Roussel, Player Name, Sutter, Myers, etc.   The plan was to eventually move these guys out once our young core was established and once our young core were ready to be the culture carriers (ie Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes).  It’s one of the reasons why Benning made the AZ deal this past summer........he felt that our core was now established and that we were ready to compete.  We got off to a terrible start this season obviously but time will tell if we can turn the ship around.  We have looked much better these past two games.

Ya, I agree.  I just think that moving on from these players has happened too soon and before the young core really were established.  

 

 

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, Crabcakes said:

Ya, I agree.  I just think that moving on from these players has happened too soon and before the young core really were established.  

 

 

Agreed in retrospect, but I think most of us, including Benning, felt that a core composing of Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko, complemented by Miller, Garland, OEL, Myers, et al, should have been enough from a leadership standpoint.  
 

A lot of people are pointing their fingers at Benning, and that’s their prerogative, but I still fail to see how this is Benning’s fault.

 

My only criticism of Benning is that he should have tried to find someone better than Lammiko once he knew that Brandon Sutter (RHC) wouldn’t be back this season, if at all.

[Tank4Bedard]

1 hour ago, BPA said:

Miller. Love the energy.  He's a proven PPG player.  Not sure if he wants to stick around for a short/long rebuild.  Plus he's most likely wanting to get paid big time on what would be his last contract.  And he'll be UFA after his contract is up.  For those reasons,  it might be best to trade him for a Kings ransom.  His cap hit is insanely good.  Even better if we retain 50% to make it favorable to the other team.  Would fetch 1st, top prospect, and roster player. 

 

Horvat.  Like Miller would be a UFA in 2023/24 season.  But he's the captain and we can't lose both of our top faceoff guys.  So would try to resign him. He's a 20g / 60pt guy.  So probably a similar contract as Boeser. 6.5 to 7M x 6yr (or longer).  If he's holding out for more, then trade him for a 1st, top prospect,  and roster player.

 

Perfect take. If horvat doesnt wanna stay u trade him 

[Crabcakes]

2 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

Agreed in retrospect, but I think most of us, including Benning, felt that a core composing of Horvat, Boeser, Pettersson, Hughes, and Demko, complemented by Miller, Garland, OEL, Myers, et al, should have been enough from a leadership standpoint.  
 

A lot of people are pointing their fingers at Benning, and that’s their prerogative, but I still fail to see how this is Benning’s fault.

 

My only criticism of Benning is that he should have tried to find someone better than Lammiko once he knew that Brandon Sutter (RHC) wouldn’t be back this season, if at all.

I think that it's always necessary to have a good mix of players in term of age because each age group brings different things to the team all of which are important

 

Mature - bring stability, experience, culture carriers

 

Prime - top performers, consistent

 

Young - lower cap hit, enthusiasm, development for the future

 

There is no specific age for each group but it is important to have each group represented

 

Early in Benning's tenure, after 2014 there were mostly Mature players and young players and of course they couldn't compete without the top performers.  The drafted core is beginning to reach the top performer stage.  Horvat is leading the way at 26.  It's hard to tell when a player reaches this stage because you don't know until he gets there.  Is Pettersson (23), Boeser (24)?  Maybe not because they've fallen off this year so far.

 

Who's in the Mature group?  OEL (30) (but he is new to the team), Sutter (32) (not playing), Halak (36) (new)

[Patel Bure]

46 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

I think that it's always necessary to have a good mix of players in term of age because each age group brings different things to the team all of which are important

 

Mature - bring stability, experience, culture carriers

 

Prime - top performers, consistent

 

Young - lower cap hit, enthusiasm, development for the future

 

There is no specific age for each group but it is important to have each group represented

 

Early in Benning's tenure, after 2014 there were mostly Mature players and young players and of course they couldn't compete without the top performers.  The drafted core is beginning to reach the top performer stage.  Horvat is leading the way at 26.  It's hard to tell when a player reaches this stage because you don't know until he gets there.  Is Pettersson (23), Boeser (24)?  Maybe not because they've fallen off this year so far.

 

Who's in the Mature group?  OEL (30) (but he is new to the team), Sutter (32) (not playing), Halak (36) (new)

Myers and Miller probably qualify as being a part of that 'mature' group as would Tanner Pearson.  Guys like OEL, Halak, and Chiasson, despite being new, should bring valuable intangibles to the lockerroom at least in theory.  

 

People at HF, The Athletic, and some other media members and posters look at our lack of success and stand there with an "I told you so" look on their faces, but I'm here to combat them and say........no......you didn't "say so."  What you guys said was.......

 

1) OEL would be a train wreck, and the OEL-Myers pairing would be a train wreck defensively

2) We would be weak 5 on 5.

3) We would be heavily reliant on our PP

4) Pettersson and Boeser would be the least of our problems.

 

The only thing "they" got right, was that our PK would be brutal.   "They" predicted that Jason Dickinson would be a significant upgrade over all three of Sutter, Beagle, and Gaudette since most of his defensive metrics from an advanced analytics perspective were quite favourable.