[Discussion] How good should the 2021-22 Canucks be?

[DownUndaCanuck]

Offence isn't much of an issue apart from Petey and Brock, and the majority of their scoring that is missing is coming from the PP. I was really expecting we'd be 3rd in the division at the end of the season with a top-10 PP and maybe at least top-20 PK. Sure we don't have any PK defensive stars but we shouldn't be this bad on the PK or defence and that's what has cost this team.

 

If we fixed our special teams we'd be at least a .500 team. 

 

If we cleaned up defensively we'd be challenging the Californian teams for 3rd in the division.

[Patel Bure]

Although most hockey pundits had us missing the playoffs, their consensus analysis had us missing the playoffs for all of the wrong reasons:  They predicted that....

 

1) OEL would continue to be a train wreck defensively 

2) OEL-Myers would get caved in.

3) We would get caved in 5 on 5, and hemmed in our defensive zone

4) Our PP would be the only thing keeping us in most games

5) Demko would have to stand on his head for us to have a chance of winning

6) Our Pk would be sub-par

 

So far, only #6 has come true, although none of us knew that our PK would be THAT bad without Sutter and Motte.  #5 has been true at times, but not to the extent that most predicted. 
 

Instead, it was the mysterious disappearance of Pettersson and Brock that did us in.  People can point to system all they want, but Petey and Brock were still able to thrive in Green’s systems all this time leading up to this season.   Horvat has struggled this year as well although he still does a good job of taking on the toughest match ups.

 

If Petey and Brock had played like they were expected to, we’d be a #4 seed right now in the division. We’d likely have finished 7th or 8th in the Conference with a 1st round loss.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, appleboy said:

Moving out pending UFA takes planning and an understanding of where your team is. Teams who are truly a playoff contender are the ones who risk losing assets because they are required for the playoff runs . They also do rentals.

Teams who are not deep and are a long shot to make the playoffs plan a year or more in advance to maximize their assets.

You NEVER let assets walk for nothing. You never do rentals. 

If that was the case a lot of the record books would be changed.  Including the 94 Rangers team which went for it and unloaded their future talent for playoff performer vets.   And possibly at least part of the NYI dynasty as well.    Tonelli was their missing ingredient.   It wouldn't be a thing every single season close to the TDL if it wasn't already a thing.   Even Burke going into ANA's cup winning season.   It happens every single season.   Teams always have to balance it out - but in the end 1/2 the league is either renting or selling. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by IBatch

[combover]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

If that was the case a lot of the record books would be changed.  Including the 94 Rangers team which went for it and unloaded their future talent for playoff performer vets.   And possibly at least part of the NYI dynasty as well.    Tonelli was their missing ingredient.   It wouldn't be a thing every single season close to the TDL if it wasn't already a thing.   Even Burke going into ANA's cup winning season.   It happens every single season.   Teams always have to balance it out - but in the end 1/2 the league is either renting or selling. 

Pre cap totally different mentality and reality. 

ranger in the 90s consistently tried to buy cups by paying more than alot if team could afford for top end talent.
are were one of key examples of why a salary cap was long over due. 
post cap trade  older vets replenish the farm draft and develop . Especially when it’s blatantly obvious your team has zero chance at competing for what really matters a Stanley cup. Asset management is now crucial to long term success. As is cap management and player development Jb has failed at all three.

Jb sold his fans and owners since day one that just making  the playoff was  the goal and it reflected on the on ice product today. 

after 8 years of being as bad as Jb Canucks making the playoffs should be a given not a pipe dream. 
 

he’s put together some solid pieces Demko probably the best pick he’s made 

ep boeser hughes hog pod 

but a long with that he’s made to many costly mistakes that have bit us and we are paying for it now. 
nonis got Louie bit  it doesn’t make him a good GM. 

it’s pretty clear he isn’t the guy that can take this team to the next step because if he was he would have.
Fans should be asked to celebrate or accept a failure to achieve even  mediocrity. 

[appleboy]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

If that was the case a lot of the record books would be changed.  Including the 94 Rangers team which went for it and unloaded their future talent for playoff performer vets.   And possibly at least part of the NYI dynasty as well.    Tonelli was their missing ingredient.   It wouldn't be a thing every single season close to the TDL if it wasn't already a thing.   Even Burke going into ANA's cup winning season.   It happens every single season.   Teams always have to balance it out - but in the end 1/2 the league is either renting or selling. 

You are right. Jim should be managing a team before the salary cap days . I think he still thinks that way.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, combover said:

At this point we should be competing with Calgary for last spot not fringe wildcard bottom feeder. 
6 years ago all I wanted was this guy to trade assets for picks to build through the draft so we’d have some depth when we got here to today. When he was hired I was excited draft develop build long term success. Watch kids develop and succeed and fail too but atleast it has a long term possibility and sustainable. 
build through the draft develop and trade from strength when the team would be competitive which should be now. 

We can’t trade from strength or depth because we have none.

instead it was trade away picks prospects watch other teams throw aways get gifted Ice  and fail over and over. 
 

so the future is what is being thrown away once again but this time it’s not for a contender it’s for a wildcard.
No Matter what that sucks. people unhappy with Gillis mortgaging the future when we were a legit contender are now ok doing the same thing to just not be a bottom feeder. 
That’s how low Jb team has gotten 

he thought he he could rebuild in the fly he was wrong and this is the result. 
 

I agree we should be competing for the 3-6th spot, just like the experts predicted.   I'm not an expert.   And i get that some folks were ready and willing for a rebuild but would be surprised to see many of those CDCers come out now and say they "knew it all along ".... i do know someone close to me that said maybe we should just let the Sedins go and not re-sign them ... most would just say sacrilege at that point on this site.   Our future was mostly decided right then and there.   Combover i absolutely get your tired and ready for a change.   Like i said earlier i'm fine with change at this point.   But and i'm also get that waiting another 8 years to see us contend ... which IF it happens - is right on schedule.   32 teams.   Until us as fans can make a movement for retraction those are actually decent odds.   That's the numbers anyways.    8 "long years lol"  what made us so special and better then all the other teams in the league? 

[IBatch]

40 minutes ago, appleboy said:

You are right. Jim should be managing a team before the salary cap days . I think he still thinks that way.

Maybe.   But nobody is actually doing the simple arithmetic.   Just calling it "excuses".   What makes us so special that we should be contending already?  Or even competing for a playoff spot for that matter giving what we started with? Sure if we weren't claused up a quick rebuild and super tank could have been an option.  It wasn't.  Now actually, it is.  Maybe that's what we need to do i don't know. 

[combover]

13 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I agree we should be competing for the 3-6th spot, just like the experts predicted.   I'm not an expert.   And i get that some folks were ready and willing for a rebuild but would be surprised to see many of those CDCers come out now and say they "knew it all along ".... i do know someone close to me that said maybe we should just let the Sedins go and not re-sign them ... most would just say sacrilege at that point on this site.   Our future was mostly decided right then and there.   Combover i absolutely get your tired and ready for a change.   Like i said earlier i'm fine with change at this point.   But and i'm also get that waiting another 8 years to see us contend ... which IF it happens - is right on schedule.   32 teams.   Until us as fans can make a movement for retraction those are actually decent odds.   That's the numbers anyways.    8 "long years lol"  what made us so special and better then all the other teams in the league? 

The fear of change isn’t a good reason to keep a failure. 
more likely than a new gm coming in and going scorched earth is a gm comes in see what isn’t working see what is and doesn’t have Shame of admitting errors and can fix them.

 No gm is going to come in a burn it down . Not with the players we have. A gm with vision,plan and identity are what this team needs and has needed. a proven winner that knows how to build and has some foresight. 

some size and toughness is still a big part of the game Vancouver has zero of those aspects. 
Depth down the middle has been a recipe for success in the nhl that’s been true through the ages. Why are we devoid of decent centre's aside from horvat. 
Jim’s done some good things but his time has come and it’s time to get a fresh look at  fixing this.
 

 

 

[appleboy]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Maybe.   But nobody is actually doing the simple arithmetic.   Just calling it "excuses".   What makes us so special that we should be contending already?  Or even competing for a playoff spot for that matter giving what we started with? Sure if we weren't claused up a quick rebuild and super tank could have been an option.  It wasn't.  Now actually, it is.  Maybe that's what we need to do i don't know. 

I am not suggesting that we should be winning. Just the opposite.  I am saying that Jim went all in because he thinks we are a playoff team. He has been making moves and talking like we are ready to compete. 

We are a way away. Someone new needs to be in charge. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by appleboy

[BigTramFan]

8 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Although most hockey pundits had us missing the playoffs, their consensus analysis had us missing the playoffs for all of the wrong reasons.

 

Instead, it was the mysterious disappearance of Pettersson and Brock that did us in.  People can point to system all they want, but Petey and Brock were still able to thrive in Green’s systems all this time leading up to this season.   Horvat has struggled this year as well although he still does a good job of taking on the toughest match ups.

 

If Petey and Brock had played like they were expected to, we’d be a #4 seed right now in the division. We’d likely have finished 7th or 8th in the Conference with a 1st round loss.

Well put. And I think this essentially means it is NOT a personnel issue. If they just "played like they were expected to"....means that, we have very capable players on the team, but they are just not performing to their potential.

 

Why is that? Is it Green's systems or is it that they refuse to follow those systems?

 

Well either way, that is on the coach. The coach's role is to create the systems and get everyone on board with that strategy. If he can't do both, then he's failing at his job.