-DLC- Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, stawns said: Must be tiring have to move goal posts around so much Goal posts move during negotiations and over time. It's quite common to be pretty far apart but often things come closer together as time goes on and neither side is getting exactly what they want in relation to lines drawn in the sand. You put things out there but it's rare that it's just one and done. Although, I do think this management isn't going to bend too much and that's where it's in the JT court to see if they can draw a little closer. To an offer that's hard to refuse, even IF it's not exactly what was originally presented. Hopefully there's a little wiggle room in there. It's a tactic to demand the world but it's often unrealistic to expect it. Overshooting things can be shooting yourself in the foot. It's not a given that another team will pay the big bucks for term....there's risk in that. JT IS 29 and if our team is looking at that as part of the equation, it's not a stretch to think that others will too. Sure, they might have the $$ but is it a responsible move for any team going forward? Long term big bucks deals are being revisited. Why do we demand that this management factor in the "expected" decline that will happen but not apply that to other teams? Especially in a player who, self admittedly, is emotional and can get frustrated. What happens over time is that it's not just about standing firm....risk does factor in (on both sides). Sometimes you give a little as things unfold and impact value. The massive offers weren't coming in, so you have to read the room on that. Factor it in. If other teams weren't selling the farm then they may not be in the future, either. My ex negotiated HUGE contracts for a massive company (for many years)...the process is very much a matter of goalposts moving over time. The demands, at first, aren't always expected returns but more a starting point to work down from. Shoot for the moon..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, Mustard Tiger said: Yup teams have never signed guys post ELC to any term contracts and signed them again once that ran out. EP is an RFA, We took huggy on a lower dollar so he could have prime term years to maximize having two big deals in his career. What's the problem? Again, Huggy and Demko can walk away for free after their current deals expire. This fact doesn't seem to register to you. Are you thinking that Hughes and Demko, 2 American players, are going to automatically sign extensions with Vancouver no matter what state of the franchise we are in? If we aren't a contender at that point, what is their incentive to stick around? As for Petey, yes he is an RFA after his current deal ends, he will be the same as Tkachuk having one year left before becoming a UFA. If he doesn't want to sign a long term extension with the Canucks then what are we going to do? Trade him or let him walk for free? We can't force him to sign an extension and he is on the record saying he wants to play for a winning team. If we are not a winning team in 2 years he may decide he wants to play elsewhere. My point is there is no guarantee that Hughes, Demko and Petey will be around in 4-5 years when our window supposedly opens and everyone is in their prime years. Keeping Miller may not be an option right now but there is no guarantee our star players stick around long term either. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 25 minutes ago, -DLC- said: Goal posts move during negotiations and over time. It's quite common to be pretty far apart but often things come closer together as time goes on and neither side is getting exactly what they want in relation to lines drawn in the sand. You put things out there but it's rare that it's just one and done. Although, I do think this management isn't going to bend too much and that's where it's in the JT court to see if they can draw a little closer. To an offer that's hard to refuse, even IF it's not exactly what was originally presented. Hopefully there's a little wiggle room in there. It's a tactic to demand the world but it's often unrealistic to expect it. Overshooting things can be shooting yourself in the foot. It's not a given that another team will pay the big bucks for term....there's risk in that. JT IS 29 and if our team is looking at that as part of the equation, it's not a stretch to think that others will too. Sure, they might have the $$ but is it a responsible move for any team going forward? Long term big bucks deals are being revisited. Why do we demand that this management factor in the "expected" decline that will happen but not apply that to other teams? Especially in a player who, self admittedly, is emotional and can get frustrated. What happens over time is that it's not just about standing firm....risk does factor in (on both sides). Sometimes you give a little as things unfold and impact value. The massive offers weren't coming in, so you have to read the room on that. Factor it in. If other teams weren't selling the farm then they may not be in the future, either. My ex negotiated HUGE contracts for a massive company (for many years)...the process is very much a matter of goalposts moving over time. The demands, at first, aren't always expected returns but more a starting point to work down from. Shoot for the moon..... I'd bet I feel far more secure in my prediction than you do in yours, whether you admit it or not. The writing is clearly on the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 14 minutes ago, stawns said: I'd bet I feel far more secure in my prediction than you do in yours, whether you admit it or not. The writing is clearly on the wall. I don't have a "position"...I have what I hope will happen in mind. But I do not, for a second, feel like he's a given to stay...it's all unknown at this point and based on management's position, I'd say your prediction is likely a better bet. Just not a sure one, that's all. And some arguing the case as it being clearly written on the wall could be surprised...he's a pretty valuable asset to walk away from. Where there's a will sometimes there is also a way. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustard Tiger Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 16 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Again, Huggy and Demko can walk away for free after their current deals expire. This fact doesn't seem to register to you. Are you thinking that Hughes and Demko, 2 American players, are going to automatically sign extensions with Vancouver no matter what state of the franchise we are in? If we aren't a contender at that point, what is their incentive to stick around? As for Petey, yes he is an RFA after his current deal ends, he will be the same as Tkachuk having one year left before becoming a UFA. If he doesn't want to sign a long term extension with the Canucks then what are we going to do? Trade him or let him walk for free? We can't force him to sign an extension and he is on the record saying he wants to play for a winning team. If we are not a winning team in 2 years he may decide he wants to play elsewhere. My point is there is no guarantee that Hughes, Demko and Petey will be around in 4-5 years when our window supposedly opens and everyone is in their prime years. Keeping Miller may not be an option right now but there is no guarantee our star players stick around long term either. All 32 teams are in this position?? It's not a Canucks exclusive where we need to panic everyone walk away for free... Cap friendly clearly shows we have 6 guys under contract when EP needs his big 8 year deal. How is that an issue. Each following year we can set ourselves up for success. Literally zero reason to panic. EPs comment came when he had to deal with JB and Green.. times have and will continue to change. Everything will be okay lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: You do realize that Huggy and Demko have current contracts that take them to UFA status in 4 to 5 years right? What guarantee do you have that they re-sign in Vancouver if we are to trade our best player for picks and prospects? And some are even okay if he walks away for free. It's nice to project that we will be in our cup window in 4 years so we don't need to re-sign a 30 year old Miller, but people need to understand there will be no cup window if Huggy and Demko walk as a UFA. And there is no guarantee that Petey will re-sign to a long term extension in 2 years if Miller is gone and he feels we are not going to be a cup contender. Petey is on the record as saying he wants to play on a winning team. He took a short term deal for a reason. Ok first off EP said one thing in a Swedish paper, very standard answer to the question....then there was the current cap situation at the time, there wasn't enough money to do both EP and QHs... that was actually a smart move by JB all considered. He didn't know the cap wasn't going up, that said he also put himself in that position as we all know. If there was no covid the money would have been there. Let's not worry about EP. We are team Sweden after all. Agree with the rest though. We simply can't assume that either Demko and especially QHs, will want to stay. Also agree why would they if we can't sort our sh!t out. Now for the last one. I've tried my best to say that playoffs and Miller going for "nothing" doesn't mean im in favour of it, or that it's not the end of the world either. Worst case is actually a bad trade or we re-sign him to a deal that hurts us. I do get all the fuss though. Because. well who the heck wouldn't want a guy like Miller on their team! That said if we trade him, things shouldn't be too bad either, especially if EP gets another season under his belt without having to be the man. And Horvat mitigates things somewhat. We can't assume that trading Miller is going to help us, or re-signing or that just letting him play out the season plus playoffs is the right move. We won't know for awhile either way. Logically, sure let's have a lopsided trade. Seen enough of them. It's also logical to assume that trading Miller is going to make it tough to manage a playoff run, and that it's very reasonable not to see a return before EPs current deal is done too. Nobody including me has the right answer. But i can see the pros (and cons) of each thing, which for sure isn't let's him walk for "nothing"....both as a manager (owners do deserve their cut) and what that experience is worth to the team and of course the managers. In that case it's also his cap back, a playoff run, and well nobody back that makes things worse at least. So it's not nothing its "something"....All 3 scenarios have their value and pitfalls. For sure im not so naive to think it's nothing. Because it for sure isn't. Even a four game sweep in the first round although that would suck butt. Edit: FYI if i had to do one thing, it would be see how the season goes and make a decision at the TDL, exactly what JR said we are going to do. And i would man up and not trade him (against my word) if things go better then expected, and actually be buyers in that case (bye bye Hogs and a second or Rathbone and a second) ... because you only get so many shots/chances and if your a numbers guy you should know this is our peak "number" window right now with the current cycle of guys ...Then make the tough decisions based on how this team managed during the second season. The first one matters of course, but the second one is what GMs actually should be planning for. Edited August 12, 2022 by IBatch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 3 hours ago, erkayloomeh said: And what does massive payday mean? He's getting 5.25 million dollars per year for playing hockey. So is getting 10 ml massive but 9 isnt? Like you said meet in the middle and call it a day. If he wants to be here that's what will happen it depends on term, and how much is weighted to the front of the deal, and how much is bonus money. There's room to make a good compromise work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Boudrias said: If it weren't for the team's development timeline I would be for resigning Miller. He is a special talent. As you outlined his age doesn't align with the core hitting their peak years. If I was to bet on any player being able to extend his ppg production it would be Miller. The problem is that is more risk than this org can handle. Especially after trading for OEL. My biggest issue is the duration of any new deal with JT. what is the timeline tho? We know we have Demko for 4 years, e.g. If we're taking a "step back" for some kind of better alignment based on age maybe he walks by then. Also not exactly sure why we're looking for some perfect age alignment with this group. All of the contenders have a wide range of player ages. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, -DLC- said: I don't have a "position"...I have what I hope will happen in mind. ^ this. Some people can't see a statement from this pov for some reason. 21 minutes ago, -DLC- said: But I do not, for a second, feel like he's a given to stay...it's all unknown at this point and based on management's position, I'd say your prediction is likely a better bet. Just not a sure one, that's all. And some arguing the case as it being clearly written on the wall could be surprised...he's a pretty valuable asset to walk away from. Where there's a will sometimes there is also a way. I think the podcast did a good job of putting certain narratives to rest (he's American so wants to be in the US, etc etc). The guy is willing to be here long term. JR/PA want to keep him. Usually that does turn into a player staying, but I agree its probably going to be hard to make it work with all our other cap issues. But its certainly not impossible or a given he walks, thats a risky path for him too. I hope they work something out the week before camp starts one way or another, that would be ideal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 3 hours ago, -DLC- said: So you only consider one angle in this. Would he play the same role? Have the same success with new line mates? He found his greatest success on this team...that matters. As he spoke to, the way he was provided opportunities here...that could change elsewhere. "He's not staying" isn't something you can state...only he can. Not for $15m dollars less he isn't. He's given zero indication that is the case. He, his agent and management have all indicated the opposite in fact. Writing. Wall. You should read it. Yup can go on believing some 11th hour miracle is going to change that reality, but that is HIGHLY unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, JM_ said: what is the timeline tho? We know we have Demko for 4 years, e.g. If we're taking a "step back" for some kind of better alignment based on age maybe he walks by then. Also not exactly sure why we're looking for some perfect age alignment with this group. All of the contenders have a wide range of player ages. Nice to have some extra reason on this site. I've tried my best to keep bringing this up. And well, LA 2 cups, CHI 2 cups, Boston 1, ANA 1, St. Louis 1, PIT 3, CAR 1 (minus Staal), WSH 1, TB 2 and COL 1 ... look at their teams...and not even going to get into who they beat to win their cups because they also were where they were - with the bulk of their key guys on second and third contracts. And in most cases it was the vets carrying all the mail. CHI is the ONLY exception...first cup. Not that they didn't have their vets because they did. Edit: Crosby and co were on their second contracts their first cup... Edit: So agree with you. 100%. People talk about 2-3 years down the road ... well sure maybe. But it's just a maybe. That's it. Why not now?. Think about that. We are just Devon Toews (Severson!) away from something special. Can say that after 93 ... we all thought we were a contender. Or close to it. Not many boxes we didn't tick, and that was pre-cap. You guys that think Miller has to be traded no matter what ... when are we going to have a team like this again? Maybe is just a maybe that's it. Why not this year. COL fans sure had a sh!t fit after we played them down the stretch. Maybe we should add. All we need is a top four D. And well ... who knows. Edited August 12, 2022 by IBatch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 3 hours ago, -DLC- said: I don't see many saying that..... Nobody has said "he's not staying" either. Our position has, consistently, decidedly been "he's not staying for what we can/should pay him and we're not paying him what he's earned". And literally every piece of information we have from all parties indicates that is correct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, JM_ said: what is the timeline tho? We know we have Demko for 4 years, e.g. If we're taking a "step back" for some kind of better alignment based on age maybe he walks by then. The two plus years management has repeatedly told you? And again with this step back nonsense... That's a narrative some fans/media came up with and is not managements plan. They've clearly indicated they expect the team to remain competitive, regardless of what happen with Miller. It will just be different. We're not tanking for Bedard 21 minutes ago, JM_ said: Also not exactly sure why we're looking for some perfect age alignment with this group. We're not looking for age alignment, we're looking to build as deep and good of a team as we can, when our best players are at their peaks, and management has had a couple years to try to correct some of our roster and cap issues. 21 minutes ago, JM_ said: All of the contenders have a wide range of player ages. As will we in two plus years, it just won't likely include Miller. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 7 minutes ago, aGENT said: Nobody has said "he's not staying" either. Our position has, consistently, decidedly been "he's not staying for what we can/should pay him and we're not paying him what he's earned". And literally every piece of information we have from all parties indicates that is correct. LOL if you said the first part...then yes, you actually did say it. The second part matters little to me. Still said it. I don't care how you rationalize or justify it...it's unknown at this point. Which is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 48 minutes ago, Mustard Tiger said: Cap friendly clearly shows we have 6 guys under contract when EP needs his big 8 year deal. How is that an issue 7? people signed with $44.5 mill left. But that does not include Miller- if he's still here Horvat, if he's still here Hoglanders next deal Podz new deal Myers, or his replacement and so on. Also note-Cap Friendly shows E.P as an RFA- so he isn't walking away, despite the whole "Wanna play on winner" thing. As to why he signed a short term deal? More money to take the short dea,l and wait for the cap to go up before signing long term. So more than just one reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB5 Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 1 hour ago, stawns said: Answer, keep Hoglander, move Boeser So far Hoglander has shown to be a good neutral zone player but not a finisher once he gets into the offensive zone. Reminds me so much of Mason Raymond 2.0 as a shifty guy who can carry the puck through the middle of the ice but needs to learn how to fight through the tough checking once he gains the zone. I think all the naysayers will be loving Brock once again after he pops 30 this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baratheon Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 15 minutes ago, -DLC- said: LOL if you said the first part...then yes, you actually did say it. The second part matters little to me. Still said it. I don't care how you rationalize or justify it...it's unknown at this point. Which is my point. So it's unknown based on his contract/what he gets paid. Is that not what @aGENT just said? I've said it before but I'll say it again. I swear sometimes y'all (I am no doubt guilty of this as well) are arguing out of habit when you secretly agree! I happen to agree with things that both of you have said if that makes you feel any better (or worse lol). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BPA Posted August 12, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted August 12, 2022 9 minutes ago, GB5 said: So far Hoglander has shown to be a good neutral zone player but not a finisher once he gets into the offensive zone. Reminds me so much of Mason Raymond 2.0 as a shifty guy who can carry the puck through the middle of the ice but needs to learn how to fight through the tough checking once he gains the zone. I think all the naysayers will be loving Brock once again after he pops 30 this year. I can think of a few posters who will never accept Brock. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-DLC- Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 9 minutes ago, Baratheon said: So it's unknown based on his contract/what he gets paid. Is that not what @aGENT just said? I've said it before but I'll say it again. I swear sometimes y'all (I am no doubt guilty of this as well) are arguing out of habit when you secretly agree! I happen to agree with things that both of you have said if that makes you feel any better (or worse lol). Thing is, he (and others) have stated emphatically that JT will/won't and none of us know what JT will do. He obviously is looking for his big payday...but he also knows what this team is about and, as a fierce competitor, seems like he'd love to stick around and see it play out. The finished product without COVID or stale coaching getting in the way. It's not really being presented as much of an "unknown" as a given. I'm not arguing out of habit...more so, just want people to not state things like fact that are, in fact, unknown at this point. Definitely have grown tired of the entire topic at this point (and am going out soon so will relieve you guys of my rebuttals). "Likely won't include Miller" stuff. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted August 12, 2022 Share Posted August 12, 2022 22 minutes ago, gurn said: 7? people signed with $44.5 mill left. But that does not include Miller- if he's still here Horvat, if he's still here Hoglanders next deal Podz new deal Myers, or his replacement and so on. Also note-Cap Friendly shows E.P as an RFA- so he isn't walking away, despite the whole "Wanna play on winner" thing. As to why he signed a short term deal? More money to take the short dea,l and wait for the cap to go up before signing long term. So more than just one reason. by then, we should see some more ELCs coming on line. So maybe its Hogs thats replaced with Karlsson, e.g. Don't replace Pearson with another 3 mil guy. Lots of ways rosters shake out with replacement level guys or ELCs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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