[proposal] An aggressive “re-tool” that actually expedites the process of us becoming good?

[Patel Bure]

[proposal] An aggressive “re-tool” that actually expedites the process of us becoming good?

 

This thread isn’t designed to debate as to whether we should keep or trade ‘x’ player.  There are plenty of other threads for that.   This thread was created to show how the Canucks can possibly “aggressively retool” starting now and still be able to field a competitive team as early as next season.  So let’s get started.  
 

1) Can we all agree that both Horvat and Miller are capable to landing us a 1st round pick AND/OR an elite prospect?  If so, let’s just say that Horvat and Miller can land us the following.

 

A) Horvat lands us Braden Schneider

B-) Miller lands us Anton Lundell  
 

Again, these are just conservative estimates.  Perhaps the Canucks can land another 1st from the above.  
 

2) With the loss of both Horvat and Miller from this season, the Canucks completely tank and finish at or near the bottom......which puts us in the Shane Wright sweepstakes.  To be conservative however, let’s pretend that we don’t land Shane Wright and instead, end up drafting a guy like Conor Geekie.

 

3) At the end of the season, the Canucks fire Jim Benning and also hire, or have already hired, a proven winning coach (interim = Brad Shaw; end of season hire = Claude Julien, Bruce Beaudreau, or Mike Babcock).

 

4) We sign and extend Brock to a 7.5 million x 8 year deal (let us not debate as to whether this is a good move or not......but my line not thinking here is that if we can extend Brock long term, it could convince Petey to sign with us long term as well).

 

5) Now here is where the fun starts.  Pretend that you are one of the UFA’s in 2022 and you’re looking for your next long term opportunity.......and you and your agent decide to assess the Canucks from both a short term and long term perspective:

 

Long term Canucks team (2023-2024?)

 

Podkolzin-Pettersson-Garland

Hoglander-Geekie-Boeser

#####-Lundell-Klimovich

####-####-Lockwood
 

Hughes-Schneider

OEL-Myers

Rathbone-Poolman

 

Demko

Dipietro

 

Coach = Julien/Beaudreau/Babcock

GM = not Benning

 

You, as a 2022 UFA, look at this team and say to yourself, “wow - Id better wear some shades because the future of this team looks really bright.  They’re going to be really effing good pretty soon and I want to be a part of that ride.”

 

I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that if we move Horvat and Miller now, and follow the above template, this team could actually be pretty “desirable looking” from a UFA perspective as early as July 1st 2022......especially if we land Shane Wright instead of Conor Geekie.  

Edited November 25, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Caboose]

loling at Lundell and a 1st for Miller

 

you're out to lunch

[Patel Bure]

21 minutes ago, Caboose said:

loling at Lundell and a 1st for Miller

 

you're out to lunch

I don't know what constitutes fair value.  Maybe Lundell for Miller one for one.  Pretend that I said that and please comment on the rest of my post.

 

ps - I edited out the first so the OP now reads, "Miller for Lundell."

Edited November 25, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Crabcakes]

A retool is when you keep the core and replace a lot of the support players

 

So what's the core of the Canucks?

 

Pettersson, Hughes, Demko?  Is that it?

 

Horvat, Boeser?

 

Hoglander, Podkolzin?

 

There has to be another D right?

[Patel Bure]

22 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

A retool is when you keep the core and replace a lot of the support players

 

So what's the core of the Canucks?

 

Pettersson, Hughes, Demko?  Is that it?

 

Horvat, Boeser?

 

Hoglander, Podkolzin?

 

There has to be another D right?

CORE:  Pettersson, Hughes, Boeser, Demko, Hoglander, and Podkolzin.  

 

VETS:  OEL, Myers, Poolman, and Pearson 

 

Young guys to join us:  Dipietro, Klimovich, Lundell, Wright/Geekie, and Schneider would be added to this core.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Caboose]

34 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I don't know what constitutes fair value.  Maybe Lundell for Miller one for one.  Pretend that I said that and please comment on the rest of my post.

 

ps - I edited out the first so the OP now reads, "Miller for Lundell."

At a minimum you should be paying attention to the salary cap when making a proposal. How do you figure Florida fits in Miller?

[Patel Bure]

11 minutes ago, Caboose said:

At a minimum you should be paying attention to the salary cap when making a proposal. How do you figure Florida fits in Miller?

They can add in a piece(s) to make it work (i.e. cap dumps, or bloated contracts that have one year left).    

 

At minimum, I'm assuming that people know that I don't literally mean "one for one" deals.   Obviously, teams like NYR, Florida, and whomever would have to send us a cap dump in order for "Horvat/Miller for prospect" deals to work. 

[eeeeergh]

59 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

[proposal] An aggressive “re-tool” that actually expedites the process of us becoming good?

 

This thread isn’t designed to debate as to whether we should keep or trade ‘x’ player.  There are plenty of other threads for that.   This thread was created to show how the Canucks can possibly “aggressively retool” starting now and still be able to field a competitive team as early as next season.  So let’s get started.  
 

1) Can we all agree that both Horvat and Miller are capable to landing us a 1st round pick AND/OR an elite prospect?  If so, let’s just say that Horvat and Miller can land us the following.

 

A) Horvat lands us Braden Schneider

B-) Miller lands us Anton Lundell  
 

Again, these are just conservative estimates.  Perhaps the Canucks can land another 1st from the above.  
 

2) With the loss of both Horvat and Miller from this season, the Canucks completely tank and finish at or near the bottom......which puts us in the Shane Wright sweepstakes.  To be conservative however, let’s pretend that we don’t land Shane Wright and instead, end up drafting a guy like Conor Geekie.

 

3) At the end of the season, the Canucks fire Jim Benning and also hire, or have already hired, a proven winning coach (interim = Brad Shaw; end of season hire = Claude Julien, Bruce Beaudreau, or Mike Babcock).

 

4) We sign and extend Brock to a 7.5 million x 8 year deal (let us not debate as to whether this is a good move or not......but my line not thinking here is that if we can extend Brock long term, it could convince Petey to sign with us long term as well).

 

5) Now here is where the fun starts.  Pretend that you are one of the UFA’s in 2022 and you’re looking for your next long term opportunity.......and you and your agent decide to assess the Canucks from both a short term and long term perspective:

 

Long term Canucks team (2023-2024?)

 

Podkolzin-Pettersson-Garland

Hoglander-Geekie-Boeser

#####-Lundell-Klimovich

####-####-Lockwood
 

Hughes-Schneider

OEL-Myers

Rathbone-Poolman

 

Demko

Dipietro

 

Coach = Julien/Beaudreau/Babcock

GM = not Benning

 

You, as a 2022 UFA, look at this team and say to yourself, “wow - Id better wear some shades because the future of this team looks really bright.  They’re going to be really effing good pretty soon and I want to be a part of that ride.”

 

I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that if we move Horvat and Miller now, and follow the above template, this team could actually be pretty “desirable looking” from a UFA perspective as early as July 1st 2022......especially if we land Shane Wright instead of Conor Geekie.  

Not sure you want to re-sign Boeser for his 7.5m QO at least based on how things stand right now.. I think it also depends on whether or not Petey can regain his form or not. If he cant, then we should go for the 3 year rebuild, because 7.5m/year on his contract + Myers is just too much dead money for us to be competitive. 

Thats why we need to get rid of Green asap - have to see who can regain their form under a new coach and system. 

I do love the way Podkolzin and Garland have been playing - they play a more competitive game than Petey and Boes. Filling our lines with guys like that is the way forward imo.

[Patel Bure]

1 minute ago, eeeeergh said:

Not sure you want to re-sign Boeser for his 7.5m QO at least based on how things stand right now.. I think it also depends on whether or not Petey can regain his form or not. If he cant, then we should go for the 3 year rebuild, because 7.5m/year on his contract + Myers is just too much dead money for us to be competitive. 

Thats why we need to get rid of Green asap - have to see who can regain their form under a new coach and system. 

I do love the way Podkolzin and Garland have been playing - they play a more competitive game than Petey and Boes. Filling our lines with guys like that is the way forward imo.

I hear what you're saying about Boeser, but signing Boeser at 7.5 million for 5-8 years does a few things:

 

1) It goes a long way in making sure that Petey resigns with us long term.

 

2) We show faith in Boeser.

 

3) We take a calculated risk in committing to Boeser, while making the assumption that our flawed system (Green) was more at fault rather than a mysterious decline on Boeser's part.  

[eeeeergh]

7 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I hear what you're saying about Boeser, but signing Boeser at 7.5 million for 5-8 years does a few things:

 

1) It goes a long way in making sure that Petey resigns with us long term.

 

2) We show faith in Boeser.

 

3) We take a calculated risk in committing to Boeser, while making the assumption that our flawed system (Green) was more at fault rather than a mysterious decline on Boeser's part.  

I think you're probably right that its the flawed system, given how many players are underperforming, and how many that leave the Canucks end up flourishing on their new teams.

But ive still got this nightmare that Petey may not be the player we thought he was.. and I suppose that goes for anyone else whos due for a franchise make-or-break contract like Boeser. 

Hopefully we get absolutely destroyed on this roadtrip and we have a new coach in a couple weeks so we can know for sure. 

[Patel Bure]

6 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

I think you're probably right that its the flawed system, given how many players are underperforming, and how many that leave the Canucks end up flourishing on their new teams.

But ive still got this nightmare that Petey may not be the player we thought he was.. and I suppose that goes for anyone else whos due for a franchise make-or-break contract like Boeser. 

Hopefully we get absolutely destroyed on this roadtrip and we have a new coach in a couple weeks so we can know for sure. 

I think Petey and Brock just need new systems to be honest.   Even if Petey isn't the guy that we thought he was going to be, if we can tank this year and land either Shane Wright or Conor Geekie, we could then put Petey either on one of their wings, or just have him anchor a 2nd line in the future.   

 

Getting back to my main point of this thread though, if you and I are NHL players who are UFA's in 2022, and we analyze the Canucks as a viable long term option and see the following pieces:

 

-Shane Wright or Conor Geekie

-Braden Schneider

-Anton Lundell

-Pettersson

-Hughes

-Garland

-Boeser

-Demko

-Podkolzin

-Hoglander

 

Coach = Julien/Babock/Budreau

 

I would feel confident about the newfound infrastructure (i.e. No Green, No Benning) + the promising young core that would still have some decent vets (OEL).

Edited November 25, 2021 by Patel Bure

[Makaramel MacKhiato]

Dude, these boards aren't made to be filled with hundreds of fantasy ideas. Go do this on NHL 22 or something

[J.I.A.H.N]

Well, Patel, I been thinking about this for a while

 

I think there are many ways to look at this scenario.........but one thing for sure, it is noticeable that we do not have enough veteran leadership

 

So, maybe we keep Miller and Horvat, and more Pettersson.

 

Here are my reasons. First Off, Pettersson, although talented, gets dominated physically. The second reason is he is streaky, and I think has shown his ceiling, and lastly and more importantly, he can bring in a haul.

 

I still go to the NY Rangers, and offer Pettersson for Schneider, 2022-1st, and Chytil

 

What it does is transfers our young talent from center to the RHD, which intern strengthens our young LHD. That alone is reason enough. But the trade allows us a very good prospect somewhere in the middle of the first round somewhere around the 16 to 22 spot, depending where they finish in the regular season standings and the playoffs. If for some reason, they do not make the playoffs, then it is a big win. Chytil can certainly fill in the third center position or be a traded to fill in another hole.

 

Does the loss of Pettersson stop us from moving one of Miller or Horvat? I think that depends on the return. IMO, with the loss of Pettersson, and the add of Schneider, and the 1st rounder, we have filled in the glaring hole which was no RHD prospect depth, besides Woo. And the NYR 1st, will allow us to pick up a great future something????

 

So, most likely, it's Miller that gets moved at the draft, if anything. And if he does, we would still have Horvat and Chytil in the middle, and our 1st, which would allow us to pick a very good player at the front of the draft. (Wright, Cooley, Geekie, Slafkovsky and Savoie) all in the top 10) With Savoie being the only real light weight.

 

In addition there are some real nice secondary RHD in the middle of the 1st round that would put us in a great spot. 

 

This gives back the room to Horvat, reduces our cap, and truely puts us back those couple of years, which is time enough to develop, our prospect more.

 

Now, nothing will work unless our current management is replaced................so the beat goes on

[Patel Bure]

54 minutes ago, Top Sven Baercheese said:

Dude, these boards aren't made to be filled with hundreds of fantasy ideas. Go do this on NHL 22 or something

Yes they are dude and I will be buying NHL 22 fairly shortly!  Muhahahahaha!  

[mll]

12 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

I don't know what constitutes fair value.  Maybe Lundell for Miller one for one.  Pretend that I said that and please comment on the rest of my post.

 

ps - I edited out the first so the OP now reads, "Miller for Lundell."

 

Can't see why Florida does that trade.  They are top of the league and don't have to mess with chemistry.  Barkov is injured and they are still winning games.  Lundell is playing 17 minutes a night and is a natural C and even kills penalties.  They are far more likely to keep their top prospect than trade him for a 2 year rental.  

 

[Patel Bure]

3 hours ago, mll said:

 

Can't see why Florida does that trade.  They are top of the league and don't have to mess with chemistry.  Barkov is injured and they are still winning games.  Lundell is playing 17 minutes a night and is a natural C and even kills penalties.  They are far more likely to keep their top prospect than trade him for a 2 year rental.  

 

Fair enough.  My point being that both Horvat and Miller should be able to land you Atleast two elite prospects in total.  
 

So maybe Braden Schneider is one, and another guy out there is two (ie Kent Johnson from Columbus?........I’m guessing that Cole Sillinger is untouchable at this point for us).

 

So - we land two very elite prospects for Horvat and Miller, tank the rest of this year, and then land someone like Wright or Geekie in the draft.   All the while keeping everyone on our team outside of Horvat and Miller.  Now all of a sudden, a 2022 UFA looks at our team and says, “these guys look promising long term, and maybe I can even help these guys short term while those young diamonds develop.”

 

 

[BPA]

Trade (if possible):

 

Miller (50% retained if needed) to NYI for Wahlstrom + Mayfield + 1st 2022 (top 5 protected...slides to unconditional 1st 2023).   Getting that 1st might get us an extra chance to get Geekie.  And if hockey gods bless Canucks, maybe even get Wright + Geekie.  2 big boys at C.

 

 

[BigTramFan]

16 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

-Shane Wright or Conor Geekie

-Braden Schneider

-Anton Lundell

-Pettersson

-Hughes

-Garland

-Boeser

-Demko

-Podkolzin

-Hoglander

 

Coach = Julien/Babock/Budreau

 

I would feel confident about the newfound infrastructure (i.e. No Green, No Benning) + the promising young core that would still have some decent vets (OEL).

What's the deal with Schneider? I haven't seen him play, everyone seems so high on him but can't see that he has proven anything yet. Why is he worth so much? Is it just that we are looking for a young RD?

[Patel Bure]

1 hour ago, BigTramFan said:

What's the deal with Schneider? I haven't seen him play, everyone seems so high on him but can't see that he has proven anything yet. Why is he worth so much? Is it just that we are looking for a young RD?

Schneider is a big RHD that is defensively responsible in his own end, and is one of the few (if any) young RD’s available that are more valuable than a 1st round pick (based on merit), and yet probably quite haven’t reached “untouchable” status like Moritz Seider or Noah Dobson have.  
 

In my opinion, it is these prospects that the Canucks should be targeting with Horvat and Miller.  Young guys, through merit, that are now valuable than a 1st round pick, but still haven’t quite reached untouchable status yet.

 

I had assumed that Anton Lundell was in that category but it looks like he’s reached untouchable status now.  As has Columbus’ Cole Sillinger.  Maybe Kent Johnson is attainable? 

[BigTramFan]

4 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Schneider is a big RHD that is defensively responsible in his own end, and is one of the few (if any) young RD’s available that are more valuable than a 1st round pick (based on merit), and yet probably quite haven’t reached “untouchable” status like Moritz Seider or Noah Dobson have.  
 

In my opinion, it is these prospects that the Canucks should be targeting with Horvat and Miller.  Young guys, through merit, that are now valuable than a 1st round pick, but still haven’t quite reached untouchable status yet.

 

I had assumed that Anton Lundell was in that category but it looks like he’s reached untouchable status now.  As has Columbus’ Cole Sillinger.  Maybe Kent Johnson is attainable? 

Thanks for the update on Schneider. At least Seider and Dobson have shown they can step up to the NHL (although I notice Dobson is really struggling this season taking the next step up without some key players on D to insulate his play).

 

I personally think Miller or Horvat would be worth A LOT more than just 1 prospect like Schneider. More like: Schneider + Kraztsov + 1st round pick (if trading with NYR).