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[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks


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32 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

wait so players are not suppose to improve if the opportunity presents itself? in the first 8 years was bo ever put in the same situation he's in now along with better linemates? miller first 7 season was sub 50 points except 1 56 points season.. then he got an opportunity to play on the first line and took off from there? bo got the opportunity after 8 years instead of 7 due to certain player crapping the bed after his extension and it just happened to be the contract year and we going to rag on him about it lol. i mean he started his hot streak in the 3rd quarter of last season.. that was not his contract year.

It’s not very common to go from 30 goals to 60 goals at 28 years old. Has it ever happened before?

 

Also, it is interesting that people are saying that Horvat is now getting an opportunity to play with better players now. He’s playing with JT Miller. I swear if you read CDC every day you would think Miller is the worst player in hockey. :lol:

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rackdawg said:

Ya true enough..they used him wrong from the get go.

Yeah, totally have. Although, kudos to him for doing what he’s been asked to do, even if it may have previously diminished his contract value opportunities. It’s why I have no argument with him saying no thanks to a haircut on his worth and instead intending to cash in at top value elsewhere (if necessary). He’s earned it, and has also been fortunate enough to have market economics and NHL salary inflation in his corner. Best to take full advantage of that great opportunity now. 
 

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The thing that I think surprises folks with Bo is that he was chosen to be captain of this team because of his innate leadership qualities. We’re used to seeing our past captains put the team first, like Linden, Sedin and Messier (jk). We expected Horvat to take a team friendly deal as he heads closer to UFA status. Is that a fair expectation? Of course not. But he seemed like the type who might do that. Then again, when you do a closer inspection of Horvat’s leadership qualities over the years, I’m not sure he would belong in the category of a Linden or Sedin, when looked through the lens of time. He is good on faceoffs. He back checks. But he still hardly hits, doesn’t really stand up for teammates, and while he’s good for standard media quotes, what has he really done for this franchise since he was brought in? Our team has stunk under his watch.

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9 minutes ago, Slegr said:

The thing that I think surprises folks with Bo is that he was chosen to be captain of this team because of his innate leadership qualities. We’re used to seeing our past captains put the team first, like Linden, Sedin and Messier (jk). We expected Horvat to take a team friendly deal as he heads closer to UFA status. Is that a fair expectation? Of course not. But he seemed like the type who might do that. Then again, when you do a closer inspection of Horvat’s leadership qualities over the years, I’m not sure he would belong in the category of a Linden or Sedin, when looked through the lens of time. He is good on faceoffs. He back checks. But he still hardly hits, doesn’t really stand up for teammates, and while he’s good for standard media quotes, what has he really done for this franchise since he was brought in? Our team has stunk under his watch.

None of those players were blatantly disrespected

they offered him a pay decrease while showering miller.

lol

if anything it shows Horvat has some self worth and self respect things I’d expect from a leader. 

 

 also team friendly deals usually aren’t for perineal directionless loser teams with donkeys owners. And he might have taken a team friendly deal if he wasn’t treated like he was expendable. He has proven them wrong. 
he’s wasted his careeer for a team that hasn’t improved and have so far proven they still don’t have any idea how to improve. 

So take a discount so they can throw money at another loser Louie Erickson… 

 

People whined about naslunds leadership hanks even linden.

Now some are so desperate they’re calling him selfish for scoring but in the same breath cry that he hasn’t put up numbers like this in the past. Lol

 

 

I feel he was done with this club in the summer the minute they signed miller,they showed no loyalty to him why would anyone expect him to have loyalty to them. 

tanev situation was similar.

 

i think horvat will sign a team friendly  deal but it won’t be here.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

It’s not very common to go from 30 goals to 60 goals at 28 years old. Has it ever happened before?

 

Also, it is interesting that people are saying that Horvat is now getting an opportunity to play with better players now. He’s playing with JT Miller. I swear if you read CDC every day you would think Miller is the worst player in hockey. :lol:

 

 

johnathan cheechoo?

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8 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

johnathan cheechoo?

Cheechoo was 25 so a couple years younger than BO. By age 28 Cheechoo was a 12 goal scorer. 
 

The main thing to consider with BO in that his shooting % is currently 25%. So he’s scoring a goal on every 4 shots. In comparison, Ovechkin’s shooting % over his career is 13%. 
 

25% is not sustainable. Not even close. Once BO drops back to reality and his shooting % drops to 12% he will go back to being a 30 goal scorer and 60 point guy. He’s not a playmaker so he will never pile up assists either. 
 

If he gets traded he may not get that bumper spot back either. Our power play is currently constructed to give BO maximum opportunity to score in the bumper spot. Not every team will have the same set up. He is having a career year at the perfect time that will be impossible to statistically replicate. A Jonathan Cheechoo type year where everything goes in. 
 

 

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4 hours ago, KirkSave said:

Whatever happens post deadline, I expect Bo to test FA in the summer and see what is out there for him. A team like LA could really benefit from bringing Bo on board. They will have the cap space to make it work and Kopitar will be 36 and entering the final year of his current contract in year 23/24. 

 

If LA thinks they can re-sign him, I hope we can get some solid RD prospects like Clarke or Grans, along with a 1st rounder in the 23 draft. 

Can't see LA being interested in Horvat.  Doesn't really seem a fit for this season or long term when they have other needs.

 

Danault is C2 in LA and doubt that's going to change anytime soon with McLellan in charge.  Their 2nd line is the 1 constant in LA while the other lines have been shuffled.  McLellan can't stop praising that line and it's importance to their success.  

 

Fiala, their leading scorer and 8M off-season signing, is down on their 3rd line because McLellan has no appetite in changing up their 2nd line and he has limited chemistry with Kopitar despite several tries.  Fiala wants the puck all the time and simply doesn't mesh when he has to share the puck, so weirdly Cs that stay out of his way and are responsible defensively to cover for his defensive gaffes work best.  That's not really a role for Horvat.

 

He's obviously not going to play ahead of Kopitar.  Also don't see LA interested in Horvat as Kopitar's replacement - they are grooming Byfield for that and if he doesn't pan out they can figure it out later.  Horvat is not really a C1 and Danault has really been a perfect C2 for them.

 

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57 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Cheechoo was 25 so a couple years younger than BO. By age 28 Cheechoo was a 12 goal scorer. 
 

The main thing to consider with BO in that his shooting % is currently 25%. So he’s scoring a goal on every 4 shots. In comparison, Ovechkin’s shooting % over his career is 13%. 
 

25% is not sustainable. Not even close. Once BO drops back to reality and his shooting % drops to 12% he will go back to being a 30 goal scorer and 60 point guy. He’s not a playmaker so he will never pile up assists either. 
 

If he gets traded he may not get that bumper spot back either. Our power play is currently constructed to give BO maximum opportunity to score in the bumper spot. Not every team will have the same set up. He is having a career year at the perfect time that will be impossible to statistically replicate. A Jonathan Cheechoo type year where everything goes in. 
 

 

then wats the point of a team trading for horvat if they aren't going to utilize him in the bumper spot where he's most effective.. u ain't really trading for bo because he's good defensively you are trading for bo because he's scoring so many goals and good in the faceoff. even if horvat drops back to say 16% shotting percentage that'll still put him on pace to over 40 which is realistic.

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9 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

then wats the point of a team trading for horvat if they aren't going to utilize him in the bumper spot where he's most effective.. u ain't really trading for bo because he's good defensively you are trading for bo because he's scoring so many goals and good in the faceoff. even if horvat drops back to say 16% shotting percentage that'll still put him on pace to over 40 which is realistic.

I highly doubt Horvat will continue to have a shooting % that is better than the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.  It's an anomaly and he will eventually drop back to 12-13%.

 

As for other teams putting him in the bumper spot, it depends on how they run their power play.  Not every team uses only one defenceman.  I think alot of GM's are going to see what I see, a guy who is having a career year and has a shooting % that is not sustainable and a guy who is not a playmaker so his stats are inflated by his goal scoring.  If Horvat goes back to 30 goals then he is a 60 point guy maximum.  Which is why JR is not giving him an 8x8 contract. 

 

Somebody may overpay for him in free agency however, which is why BO is going to wait it out and pray that his shooting % continues at 25% for the rest of the year...

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4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I highly doubt Horvat will continue to have a shooting % that is better than the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.  It's an anomaly and he will eventually drop back to 12-13%.

 

As for other teams putting him in the bumper spot, it depends on how they run their power play.  Not every team uses only one defenceman.  I think alot of GM's are going to see what I see, a guy who is having a career year and has a shooting % that is not sustainable and a guy who is not a playmaker so his stats are inflated by his goal scoring.  If Horvat goes back to 30 goals then he is a 60 point guy maximum.  Which is why JR is not giving him an 8x8 contract. 

 

Somebody may overpay for him in free agency however, which is why BO is going to wait it out and pray that his shooting % continues at 25% for the rest of the year...

i dont think you can compare ovechkin shooting % he is a volume shooter most goal scorer is 15% and higher 15-16% is realistic ovechkin will shoot and shoot at anything even if there's 0 chance it goes in. i mean sure there's a risk there's also a risk with miller after having a career year. his assist/gm was way beyond his normal. outside of last season.. miller is prolly a 70 point guy at best and he's trending that way again this season. so really there's no difference between signing bo or signing miller.. both comes with big risk. however the risk with bo is less because if bo isn't scoring he's still doing his faceoff.. vs if miller isn't scoring he isn't really doing anything. miller prior to his 99 point is a 70 point guy at best just like bo prior to this season you guys say he's a 60 point guy at best. but horvat does more than miller outside of scoring imo

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39 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i dont think you can compare ovechkin shooting % he is a volume shooter most goal scorer is 15% and higher 15-16% is realistic ovechkin will shoot and shoot at anything even if there's 0 chance it goes in. i mean sure there's a risk there's also a risk with miller after having a career year. his assist/gm was way beyond his normal. outside of last season.. miller is prolly a 70 point guy at best and he's trending that way again this season. so really there's no difference between signing bo or signing miller.. both comes with big risk. however the risk with bo is less because if bo isn't scoring he's still doing his faceoff.. vs if miller isn't scoring he isn't really doing anything. miller prior to his 99 point is a 70 point guy at best just like bo prior to this season you guys say he's a 60 point guy at best. but horvat does more than miller outside of scoring imo

I do agree with this, but in fairness to Miller he's been a PPG guy since he arrived in Vancouver, so even if you take out last year's 99 points he is still at .94PPG for 2019, 2020 and this year, which translates to 77 points, not 70 points.  77-point players are still earning $8 million per year.  You can argue that BO deserves the same, but the fact is Miller is not overpaid for what he has done in Vancouver overall.  

 

Also, if BO isn't scoring then he effectively becomes a 3C, which puts him in the same category as a Phillip Danault at $5.5-$6 million.  BO not scoring goals means he is certainly not an $8 million player.  If Miller isn't scoring it's not true he isn't doing anything.  He had 45 assists in 2020 and 67 last year.  He can still set up his linemates if he isn't scoring goals.  Also, you are forgetting that Miller is also good on faceoffs.  His faceoff % is almost exactly the same as Horvat.  Miller as a Canuck is at 54.9% including this year.  BO is at 53.8% lifetime and 56.6% this year.  I know we had a discussion on this already and your point was that Horvat takes the harder draws, but that is really subjective and can't be statistically proven.

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2 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I highly doubt Horvat will continue to have a shooting % that is better than the greatest goal scorer in NHL history.  It's an anomaly and he will eventually drop back to 12-13%.

Horvat's career shooting percentage is 14.1%... Ovechkin's is 13.0%

 

You sure you highly doubt it?

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6 hours ago, Kenny Powers said:

Sounds like a great approach - hopefully just over $8M AAV to put him ahead of Miller, but leave as much space as possible to build out the rest of the team.

 

Final offer of $8.25M x 7, or let his agent start talking extensions with the serious bidders. 

I think this is fair and surely he says yes to that, but then we need to move a lot of cap around. That's 6M in extensions next year we don't have so one of Boeser/Myers has to go. Then Kuzmenko's likely 6M or he walks for nothing. We could just get rid of Boeser and Garland for starters but would still have a few mil we need to move (Pearson) but at what cost?

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13 hours ago, RWJC said:

Agreed and on the flip side, Bo’s never been given the opportunity to focus so much on offense. He’s always been thrust into the two way, responsible C with average wingers. The wing depth has really helped him alter his game this season, and proves that he is very capable as more of an offense minded player. Still though, next contract has to be the biggest motivator. 
 

 

The thing is that Horvat wasn't/isn't a solid defensive forward. He is OK, maybe average. End of the day, he is a support piece. He doesn't make his linemates better and it is best not to pay guys like that $7.5M plus. 

 

In my opinion, the winger argument is a false argument...EP hasn't always played with better wingers yet he always seems to make his linemates better.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, coryberg said:

Horvat's career shooting percentage is 14.1%... Ovechkin's is 13.0%

 

You sure you highly doubt it?

What is it if you take out this season? Likely in the 12 - 13% range? More accurate to use full season results in my view (given the wear and tear over the course of a season, etc.). It will be interesting to see if he can keep up the 25% pace.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

I do agree with this, but in fairness to Miller he's been a PPG guy since he arrived in Vancouver, so even if you take out last year's 99 points he is still at .94PPG for 2019, 2020 and this year, which translates to 77 points, not 70 points.  77-point players are still earning $8 million per year.  You can argue that BO deserves the same, but the fact is Miller is not overpaid for what he has done in Vancouver overall.  

 

Also, if BO isn't scoring then he effectively becomes a 3C, which puts him in the same category as a Phillip Danault at $5.5-$6 million.  BO not scoring goals means he is certainly not an $8 million player.  If Miller isn't scoring it's not true he isn't doing anything.  He had 45 assists in 2020 and 67 last year.  He can still set up his linemates if he isn't scoring goals.  Also, you are forgetting that Miller is also good on faceoffs.  His faceoff % is almost exactly the same as Horvat.  Miller as a Canuck is at 54.9% including this year.  BO is at 53.8% lifetime and 56.6% this year.  I know we had a discussion on this already and your point was that Horvat takes the harder draws, but that is really subjective and can't be statistically proven.

i should clarify when i say not scoring i mean not producing points not just scoring goals.. Miller is ok in the faceoff but other than that he's really not a center.. being the center on the line usually puts all the defensive onus on you. he has 0 defensive awareness and 0 commitment to playing defence. otherwise he wouldn't have been removed as a center for good chunk of the season. Horvat is guity of not playing defense at times too but not as often. i think it's fair to say horvat is a significantly less of a liability on the ice than Miller is.. it's to the point where you don't even have to think twice about benching miller in OT. it's also not fair to be comparing production of miller's production the last 3 years aged 26-27-28 and then using horvat's 24-25-26 as comparison coz if you look at miller's number from 24-26.. i can easily argue miller is a 50-60 point player at best. prior to him having an opportunity to be a top line player. People are calling horvat a 60 point player at best.. but they accepted the fact Miller is allowed to get better and better as he aged towards his peak but have it engraved in their mind horvat is not allowed to hit his prime and get better as he age towards his peak.. so how exactly does that work... we don't know where horvat's peak is as an offensive player because he never was played as an offensive player.. who knows maybe if he had a playmaker on his line the entire career he might have been a constant 35-40 goals scorer instead of having defensive players like LE and pearson. horvat as a 60 goal scorer? probably not. a consistent 35-40 goal scorer with around 30-35 assist for 70 points consistently? i can see that. i have no issue with paying horvat 8mil if he can consistently pot in 35-40 goals while doing his 2C duties.. i didn't have issue with miller and his 7x8mil contract in the summer. but i have issue with that contract if he can't be relied upon consistently as a center that won't hurt the team. miller i believe can still turn it around.. but whether he wants to or not i think is a bit concerning.. Miller ever since he came to vancouver gives me the vibe as an aggrogant me first player.. his on ice antics and his off ice interview just for whatever reason always gives me that vibe.. kesler was like an aggrogant prick but he plays hard and works hard for his teammates.. i dunno if the same can be said about miller. 

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49 minutes ago, 5nothincanucksohno said:

What is it if you take out this season? Likely in the 12 - 13% range? More accurate to use full season results in my view (give the wear and tear over the course of a season, etc.). It will be interesting to see if he can keep up the 25% pace.  

 

 

 

if you take out this season completely he's still slightly above 13% higher than ovechkin's career number. i dont think 25% is reasonable. i think 15% is reasonable he was over 16% last season. so at 15-16 % that would put him over 40 goal pace over 82 game

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Horvat on our team, likely scores over 40 for a few more seasons.    We should re-sign him if we can as long as it doesn't get much higher than 8.    If we can't do that, then let's hope he doesn't get injured and keeps scoring.   On pace to end up in special company.     Doubt he scores 50 ever again.   But do think the way we are utilizing him, on this team anyways, his shot volume going way up, will mitigate his shooting percentage going down.   And like Naslund, Tanti, Bure etc - has a solid chance of rattling off 40 plus goals multiple times.   He was scoring the most under Bruce last season too.     Think he's a 30 goal guy next year on a different team.   Takes time to adjust to new faces, a different system etc,     NHL media panels have been debating whether or not he's really a number one center...but also gushing over him and making comments like "you win cups with a guy like Horvat".   

 

There is room for Horvat too.   Our team hasn't had great goaltending, and of course our PK is awful / that's a defense issue.    Trading Horvat might plug a hole.  Big maybe.   Signing Horvat won't be a mistake though.    Not his fault the previous regime screwed it up.   And it's not like he wasn't well paid either.   He was. 

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4 hours ago, coryberg said:

Horvat's career shooting percentage is 14.1%... Ovechkin's is 13.0%

 

You sure you highly doubt it?

14.1% is ALOT lower than 25% and makes him a 30 goal scorer and a 60 point guy.  Also, you are including his anomaly season to get to 14.1%.  Ovechkin has taken 176 shots this year and has scored 28 goals.  Horvat has taken only 122 shots and has also scored 28 goals.  That is not sustainable and everyone knows it.

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2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

i should clarify when i say not scoring i mean not producing points not just scoring goals.. Miller is ok in the faceoff but other than that he's really not a center.. being the center on the line usually puts all the defensive onus on you. he has 0 defensive awareness and 0 commitment to playing defence. otherwise he wouldn't have been removed as a center for good chunk of the season. Horvat is guity of not playing defense at times too but not as often. i think it's fair to say horvat is a significantly less of a liability on the ice than Miller is.. it's to the point where you don't even have to think twice about benching miller in OT. it's also not fair to be comparing production of miller's production the last 3 years aged 26-27-28 and then using horvat's 24-25-26 as comparison coz if you look at miller's number from 24-26.. i can easily argue miller is a 50-60 point player at best. prior to him having an opportunity to be a top line player. People are calling horvat a 60 point player at best.. but they accepted the fact Miller is allowed to get better and better as he aged towards his peak but have it engraved in their mind horvat is not allowed to hit his prime and get better as he age towards his peak.. so how exactly does that work... we don't know where horvat's peak is as an offensive player because he never was played as an offensive player.. who knows maybe if he had a playmaker on his line the entire career he might have been a constant 35-40 goals scorer instead of having defensive players like LE and pearson. horvat as a 60 goal scorer? probably not. a consistent 35-40 goal scorer with around 30-35 assist for 70 points consistently? i can see that. i have no issue with paying horvat 8mil if he can consistently pot in 35-40 goals while doing his 2C duties.. i didn't have issue with miller and his 7x8mil contract in the summer. but i have issue with that contract if he can't be relied upon consistently as a center that won't hurt the team. miller i believe can still turn it around.. but whether he wants to or not i think is a bit concerning.. Miller ever since he came to vancouver gives me the vibe as an aggrogant me first player.. his on ice antics and his off ice interview just for whatever reason always gives me that vibe.. kesler was like an aggrogant prick but he plays hard and works hard for his teammates.. i dunno if the same can be said about miller. 

The only flawed part in this logic is Horvat spent equal time with everyone but Brock as Miller did last season.   And well we all know how much flak Brocks gotten the past two seasons, even Miller couldn't push his stats up much until the coaching change.    Horvat played just as much with EP last season as Miller did, and Pearson split time with Horvat and Miller, so did Garland.   Point is - last year anyways, Horvat played with the best of the rest as often as Miller did.     Miller turns 30 ... and a few weeks later Horvat turns 28.    Last season Horvat was 26-27, and Miller was 28-29.     Miller was doing more than Horvat at the same age, and well his deal was a heck of a lot more team friendly given two RFA, two UFA years.    Both these guys earned their deals, but Miller more so, until this year surprise surprise.   Miller still has this year at 5.35.   Funny thing, when we traded for him, my first thought was we just added another Horvat with some fire.   Not too shabby.  After the shock wore of trading our first.   One last hurrah with the tiny remnants of the Sedin era, Edler only really sorry Tanev, that was all downslope for you.   

 

Don't you think the coaches wouldn't have given Horvat more opportunity if they had the guys to do it?    Brock .. well how many goals has he scored this year so far?  And last year?   That's a prime example of a guy, who didn't/hasn't earned his pay cheque, but there was a time we had Brett Hull-lite ...

 

 Agree this year Miller is struggling.    And Horvats just shitting gold.   Seems like folks have very short memories though.   Last year Miller did all he could - and Horvat too after the coaching change, to get us into the playoffs and we were actually a scary scary team.   COL fans were freaking out they'd have to play us and rightly so.  Best game of the season.   3-1 i think.   We were charging up the standings, and even under Green our 5 x 5 play was decent..lost a lot of one goal games...PK, early PP and entitled kids not coming to camp in shape and Greens obsession over the 13th man killed the season.  Chiasson.   Ugh.  Green did pick the right guy - for one year anyways. 

 

It takes all sorts,  to win a cup.   Agree with Bieksa, and the panel, Miller is better than this and needs to sort his stuff out.   My biggest issue with Vancouver fans, is how quickly we turn on our players.    Deserved maybe, and Millers bringing some of that on himself for sure.   Before Bruce,  Horvat was having the worst season in years.   Miller was still doing his thing,  and was also part of why the coaching change occurred "we don't know what we are doing!"  Green lol.  Poor guy.   But he deserved the boot as did JB.  Change takes time.  Why change management is a thing. 

 

But we can't say Horvat didn't have the same as Miller did last season, because he did - and well it was mostly power play impact down the stretch.    Miller with the same guys , at the same age ... was close to a PPG player.    Going into this season 217 points in 202 games.    Now he's the enemy.   What are people going to do; if we re-sign Horvat to what a modest first line C makes (8) and he falls from grace?    Rip him a new one.  

 

My preference is to keep both guys.  For that to happen, we'd need to re-establish ourselves as a team that wins. Winning solves everything in this league.  Figure odds are that doesn't happen.   And that the best thing could be Horvat being this generations Linden trade.   Difference is nobody wanted to see Linden go.   

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