shiznak Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: I don't think ES ice time is the #1 definition of whether a player is a 1C versus a 2C. Also, Horvat is sent out many times simply to take draws which increases his ice time. Are you suggesting that BO is our 1C and Petey is our 2C? If so, maybe that is one of the reasons why we are a lottery team, trying to pump BO as a 1C. We probably would be a better team if Petey had more ice time... Actually, ES ice-time is the sole definition of whether a player is a 1C or not. I don’t care how good/how many points the other player is/has. If you play more minutes, it means you’re counted on by your coach. Even if Horvat is out there to take faceoffs, he still averages more ES minutes over Pettersson per game. Take a look at Tampa. Point anchor’s their top line, while Stamkos anchor’s their second, despite putting up better numbers. Same goes with Dubois and Scheifele in Winnipeg. We’re not a lottery team, because Horvat is our one centermen and Pettersson isn’t. We’re a lottery team, because of our terrible team defense and special teams. Edited January 7 by shiznak 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 36 minutes ago, shiznak said: ES ice-time: Horvat - 575:49 (26th amongst centers) Pettersson - 514:21 (67th amongst centers) Ice-time against elite competitions. Horvat - 164:40 Pettersson - 144.10 Seem like Bo plays more of a 1C role than Pettersson, if you ask me. Bo is also 11th amongst centers in total ice-time. While Pettersson is 26th. In the natural sense, Bo is a solid 2nd line center, but statistically he is much more important than that. Plays the most ice time, takes the most draws, plays against top opposition, leads the team (and almost league) in goals. These aren't stats of your 2nd best center. We're lucky we have a future 100pt center in Petey but in terms of who's more important to the team, all around I think it's Bo, so in terms of importance and value to a club, he's our most valuable center. Sure Petey puts up more points, drives the offence more, but Bo plays more and harder minutes. It is close though, a real 1A 1B situation. Bo on other teams would be interesting, he'd be most team's top centers but a lot of team's 2Cs, but yet again he will likely play the most minutes, take the most draws, kill the most faceoffs, score the most goals and play against top opponents wherever he goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 22 minutes ago, combover said: . I agree Bo isn’t a #1 Center he a #2. 8 mill for a very good #2 doesn’t seem like an over payment actually seems on par. petey will be paid as the number one and it’ll be over ten mill. Or he won’t be here. don’t compare miller???? He was signed as a Center he’s been terrible he couldn’t even hold down the number 3 Center spot… ouch. they paid him to be the number two he failed. He’s actually a direct comparison. Even his Career ppg is very similar. Truth is they only have to pay Bo more because they screwed up in the summer and signed the lesser player/person to more money. In the end we will be keeping the lesser player. There are only 18 centres in the entire NHL that are getting paid at least $8 million. So how do you figure that $8 million is the going rate for a 2C? Like I said, you can cry that we signed Miller over Horvat, but that still doesn't justify overpaying for Horvat. Miller was coming off a 99 point season, which is production in line with a 1C. It doesn't matter what he is doing today as that is after the fact. Of course, if Miller was currently not re-sigtned they probably don't give him the 8x7 contract today. But hindsight is 20/20. At the time of the signing, Miller was a 99 point player and Horvat was a 52 point player. Most teams would give the 99 point player the priority in a real world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Elias Pettersson Posted January 7 Popular Post Share Posted January 7 14 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said: In the natural sense, Bo is a solid 2nd line center, but statistically he is much more important than that. Plays the most ice time, takes the most draws, plays against top opposition, leads the team (and almost league) in goals. These aren't stats of your 2nd best center. We're lucky we have a future 100pt center in Petey but in terms of who's more important to the team, all around I think it's Bo, so in terms of importance and value to a club, he's our most valuable center. Sure Petey puts up more points, drives the offence more, but Bo plays more and harder minutes. It is close though, a real 1A 1B situation. Bo on other teams would be interesting, he'd be most team's top centers but a lot of team's 2Cs, but yet again he will likely play the most minutes, take the most draws, kill the most faceoffs, score the most goals and play against top opponents wherever he goes. This is 100% false information and is the reason why people keep trying to justify wanting to pay Horvat $64 million in total money. Petey is our 1C, he is our best player, he is also our best defensive forward. There is no scenario that Horvat is more valuable than Petey. None. Talk to 32 GM's and they will tell you the same thing. Only on CDC could Horvat ever be more valuable than Petey... 1 7 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Elias Pettersson Posted January 7 Popular Post Share Posted January 7 (edited) 29 minutes ago, shiznak said: Actually, ES ice-time is the sole definition of whether a player is a 1C or not. I don’t care how good/how many points the other player is/has. If you play more minutes, it means you’re counted on by your coach. Even if Horvat is out there to take faceoffs, he still averages more ES minutes over Pettersson per game. Take a look at Tampa. Point anchor’s their top line, while Stamkos anchor’s their second, despite putting up better numbers. Same goes with Dubois and Scheifele in Winnipeg. We’re not a lottery team, because Horvat is our one centermen and Pettersson isn’t. We’re a lottery team, because of our terrible team defense and special teams. Point was a 92 point player at 22 years old. Stamkos has been a star his whole career. They are a 1A and a 1B, neither one is a 2C. That's why they won 2 cups. Scheifele has been Winnipeg's #1 centre for several years. They traded for PLD to eventually groom him to be their 1C. They don't plan on keeping both of them long term. It's the same as in Vancouver. Keeping both Miller and Horvat was never an option. As for Petey versus Horvat, only on CDC can Horvat be the 1C and Petey is the 2C. Yes, our defence sucks and so does our special teams. But the other reason is Horvat and Miller both suck defensively as well, so we need better penalty killers and we need an actual shutdown centre who can take the pressure off of Petey. If Horvat is your shutdown centre then you are basically a lottery team. Miller and Horvat cannot exist together. That is my opinion and I think alot of people agree with that. Edited January 7 by Elias Pettersson 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 7 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Point was a 92 point player at 22 years old. Stamkos has been a star his whole career. They are a 1A and a 1B, neither one is a 2C. That's why they won 2 cups. Scheifele has been Winnipeg's #1 centre for several years. They traded for PLD to eventually groom him to be their 1C. They don't plan on keeping both of them long term. It's the same as in Vancouver. Keeping both Miller and Horvat was never an option. As for Petey versus Horvat, only on CDC can Horvat be the 1C and Petey is the 2C. Yes, our defence sucks and so does our special teams. But the other reason is Horvat and Miller both suck defensively as well, so we need better penalty killers and we need an actual shutdown centre who can take the pressure off of Petey. If Horvat is your shutdown centre then you are basically a lottery team. Miller and Horvat cannot exist together. That is my opinion and I think alot of people agree with that. Clearly, Pettersson is a better defensive player. Mind you, Horvat plays more minutes and tougher competition. xGA/60: Horvat - 3.27 Pettersson - 3.08 SCA/60: Horvat - 28.62 Pettersson - 29.98 HDSCA/60: Horvat - 11.60 Pettersson - 13.07 HDGA/60: Horvat - 1.35 Pettersson - 1.75 On-Ice SV% Horvat - 90.3% Pettersson - 90% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: Point was a 92 point player at 22 years old. Stamkos has been a star his whole career. They are a 1A and a 1B, neither one is a 2C. That's why they won 2 cups. Scheifele has been Winnipeg's #1 centre for several years. They traded for PLD to eventually groom him to be their 1C. They don't plan on keeping both of them long term. It's the same as in Vancouver. Keeping both Miller and Horvat was never an option. As for Petey versus Horvat, only on CDC can Horvat be the 1C and Petey is the 2C. Yes, our defence sucks and so does our special teams. But the other reason is Horvat and Miller both suck defensively as well, so we need better penalty killers and we need an actual shutdown centre who can take the pressure off of Petey. If Horvat is your shutdown centre then you are basically a lottery team. Miller and Horvat cannot exist together. That is my opinion and I think alot of people agree with that. Agreed! As much as Horvat is a very, very good player, he is not elite, he's a 2C. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combover Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said: There are only 18 centres in the entire NHL that are getting paid at least $8 million. So how do you figure that $8 million is the going rate for a 2C? Like I said, you can cry that we signed Miller over Horvat, but that still doesn't justify overpaying for Horvat. Miller was coming off a 99 point season, which is production in line with a 1C. It doesn't matter what he is doing today as that is after the fact. Of course, if Miller was currently not re-sigtned they probably don't give him the 8x7 contract today. But hindsight is 20/20. At the time of the signing, Miller was a 99 point player and Horvat was a 52 point player. Most teams would give the 99 point player the priority in a real world... How many of those have resigned in the last 1-2 years. top line centers will all be north of 9 mill on any new contract you think you going to get a top tier #2 for 6 mill nowadays lololololol. So miller on a career year 98 points justifies over paying him horvat on pace for 93 points and young and a better Center doesn’t …got it. ( Jt at horvats wasnt as good) hindsight is the age old excuse especially for the Jb apologists and for this team when really it’s just a lack foresight. horvat was and is the more complete player and wasn’t and isn’t a cancer on the room ever. Paying horvat 7-8 mill isn’t an over payment. horvats value goes beyond points JTs never has Not on this team or the others that found him expendable and it’s no surprise he’s back to his career average of 65-75 points per. this debate will go on for years just like the massive stupid mistake of taking OJ over MT. And once again we will come out on the stupid side of it because you guessed it hindsight. Lolololol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, shiznak said: Clearly, Pettersson is a better defensive player. Mind you, Horvat plays more minutes and tougher competition. xGA/60: Horvat - 3.27 Pettersson - 3.08 SCA/60: Horvat - 28.62 Pettersson - 29.98 HDSCA/60: Horvat - 11.60 Pettersson - 13.07 HDGA/60: Horvat - 1.35 Pettersson - 1.75 On-Ice SV% Horvat - 90.3% Pettersson - 90% These numbers are nteresting. But just watching both players and it’s very clear that Petey is very good defensively (without the puck) and really is not. Bo actually struggles thinking the game away from the puck. He’s big, strong, skilled, fast (not quick) and he struggles though because he too often gets on the wrong side of the puck. Love Big Bo, and fully expect we extend him, but he’s definitely not a defensive minded player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 3 minutes ago, combover said: How many of those have resigned in the last 1-2 years. top line centers will all be north of 9 mill on any new contract you think you going to get a top tier #2 for 6 mill nowadays lololololol. So miller on a career year 98 points justifies over paying him horvat on pace for 93 points and young and a better Center doesn’t …got it. ( Jt at horvats wasnt as good) hindsight is the age old excuse especially for the Jb apologists and for this team when really it’s just a lack foresight. horvat was and is the more complete player and wasn’t and isn’t a cancer on the room ever. Paying horvat 7-8 mill isn’t an over payment. horvats value goes beyond points JTs never has Not on this team or the others that found him expendable and it’s no surprise he’s back to his career average of 65-75 points per. this debate will go on for years just like the massive stupid mistake of taking OJ over MT. And once again we will come out on the stupid side of it because you guessed it hindsight. Lolololol. Isn’t Miller with us a more than ppg guy? Bo is about .7 ppg (no?) IMHAO they should get the same total dollars - 56 million. Then Petey should get 85 million. Lock all three up long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combover Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Alflives said: Isn’t Miller with us a more than ppg guy? Bo is about .7 ppg (no?) IMHAO they should get the same total dollars - 56 million. Then Petey should get 85 million. Lock all three up long term. Career miller is .72 horvat is .67 hovats will probably exceed millers after this season just like jT millers career year effected his horvats will Do the same.m this year. career averages miller is 40 points per season 12 season 486 points horvat is 45 points per season 9 season 409 points But while miller was padding his stats playing on the top line horvat was playing with dumpster finds. how miller been doing with garland and lazar as line-mates .. wasn’t his last goal his third in 17 games and it was EP that gifted to him. millers a good player hovats just bring far more to the table and he always has. he’s been top 5 in face off wins the last 4 years he’s lead the team in faceoffs taken for years he’s always in the tops in the league in face offs taken he’s a consistent playing with trash look what he’s done once he’s had real linemates and it stated last season. 8 mill isn’t an over payment for horvat 8 mill wasn’t for miller (then) But miller should have been traded last year or never resigned. now we’re stuck with him and have to trade the better player. Edited January 7 by combover 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 15 minutes ago, Alflives said: Isn’t Miller with us a more than ppg guy? Bo is about .7 ppg (no?) IMHAO they should get the same total dollars - 56 million. Then Petey should get 85 million. Lock all three up long term. This is where I'm on the fence... How far are we from turning it around... If we lock up Petey Miller and Horvat along with Hughes, we'd have prob approx 35m invested in 4 players. We then still have crappy contracts like OEL, Boeser etc. We might be able to trade Boeser but we are stuck with OEL. So that's like half the team cap on 5 guys. At this point we then might as well re-sign Kuz because we know he's a good player. (better than Boeser) Are they good enough to build a championship team around? Wed still need at least 2 upgrades on defense while keeping OEL and Hughes We'd need a first pairing D to play with Quinn and a better 2nd pairing to play with OEL. At this point OEL should be the 4D making 7m... Now the question is, do we have enough assets to get a 1D and a 3D while we need to get rid of Boeser, Myers? And is the forward group good enough to contend in the future? Thats Kuz Petey Miller Milheyev Horvat Podz Hogz Karlsson Pederson Lockwood Aman/Studnicka Joshua 1D + Hughes 3D + OEL Any bottom combo of Schenn Bear Rathbone Burroughs Dermott This does not look like a championship team... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 6 minutes ago, CanucksJay said: This is where I'm on the fence... How far are we from turning it around... If we lock up Petey Miller and Horvat along with Hughes, we'd have prob approx 35m invested in 4 players. We then still have crappy contracts like OEL, Boeser etc. We might be able to trade Boeser but we are stuck with OEL. So that's like half the team cap on 5 guys. At this point we then might as well re-sign Kuz because we know he's a good player. (better than Boeser) Are they good enough to build a championship team around? Wed still need at least 2 upgrades on defense while keeping OEL and Hughes We'd need a first pairing D to play with Quinn and a better 2nd pairing to play with OEL. At this point OEL should be the 4D making 7m... Now the question is, do we have enough assets to get a 1D and a 3D while we need to get rid of Boeser, Myers? And is the forward group good enough to contend in the future? Thats Kuz Petey Miller Milheyev Horvat Podz Hogz Karlsson Pederson Lockwood Aman/Studnicka Joshua 1D + Hughes 3D + OEL Any bottom combo of Schenn Bear Rathbone Burroughs Dermott This does not look like a championship team... This management group has two years left on their three year deals to turn the club into a winner. I can see them following the owner’s direction and using futures (picks, prospects, young players) to dump bad contracts and open cap space to bring in more developed guys to support the core five. I think we’ve seen them do this already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayinblack Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 Bo's dad Tim told a buddy of mine that he expects Bo to be gone within 3 weeks. Says likely Boston or Detroit. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 5 minutes ago, Jayinblack said: Bo's dad Tim told a buddy of mine that he expects Bo to be gone within 3 weeks. Says likely Boston or Detroit. If this is true Wow looks like it's happening Well start seeing trades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, combover said: How many of those have resigned in the last 1-2 years. top line centers will all be north of 9 mill on any new contract you think you going to get a top tier #2 for 6 mill nowadays lololololol. So miller on a career year 98 points justifies over paying him horvat on pace for 93 points and young and a better Center doesn’t …got it. ( Jt at horvats wasnt as good) hindsight is the age old excuse especially for the Jb apologists and for this team when really it’s just a lack foresight. horvat was and is the more complete player and wasn’t and isn’t a cancer on the room ever. Paying horvat 7-8 mill isn’t an over payment. horvats value goes beyond points JTs never has Not on this team or the others that found him expendable and it’s no surprise he’s back to his career average of 65-75 points per. this debate will go on for years just like the massive stupid mistake of taking OJ over MT. And once again we will come out on the stupid side of it because you guessed it hindsight. Lolololol. Being on pace for 93 points and actually getting 93 points are two different things. Miller ended the year with 99 points. If Horvat actually ends the year with 60 goals and 93 points then we can have a conversation at that time. You don't pay a player $64 million over only a half season of work... Edited January 7 by Elias Pettersson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 9 minutes ago, Jayinblack said: Bo's dad Tim told a buddy of mine that he expects Bo to be gone within 3 weeks. Says likely Boston or Detroit. This is probably true. Boston and Detroit make total sense. I'm hoping it is the Rangers, but Boston and Detroit also have nice pieces. Fabian Lysell and Brandon Carlo for Boston and Marco Kasper, Michael Rasmussen, Simon Edvinsson and William Wallinder for Detroit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combover Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 22 minutes ago, Jayinblack said: Bo's dad Tim told a buddy of mine that he expects Bo to be gone within 3 weeks. Says likely Boston or Detroit. Hope he goes to Colorado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
combover Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 30 minutes ago, Alflives said: This management group has two years left on their three year deals to turn the club into a winner. I can see them following the owner’s direction and using futures (picks, prospects, young players) to dump bad contracts and open cap space to bring in more developed guys to support the core five. I think we’ve seen them do this already. Yup we’re screwed. Two years turns into ten… (again) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 16 hours ago, combover said: Yeah I don't know. I’d say be patient but that doesn’t seem to be the way. I mean we were close to have a ton of cap on more than one occasion and gms here seem like it burning holes in there heads. Jb with OEL new guys with miller boeser i guess it comes down if they need the cap asap and don’t want to pay with picks to move out players. Complete morons. Buy out Boeser, Miller, Garland, Stillman. My gawd we're doomed! These tools are broke I could see buying out OEL just for the $7mil in space for one year. Short term planners. Edited January 7 by Gawdzukes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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