Lack of AHL Player Development - Skaters

[canucklehead44]

One thing I noticed on our current squad is the lack of skaters developed in the AHL. Other than Demko we don't have anyone in the lineup who played significant games for a minor league affiliate. As point of comparison Toronto has six players - I only use that comparison because I would usually attend Marlies - Comets games when Utica visited Toronto. Guys that we have developed for a long time - Juolevi, Mac, Gadjovich were essentially tossed when ready to make the lineup. 

I decided to dig into the Canucks seasons and see what the numbers looked like in previous years. Using 40 games in our AHL system I felt was at least a decent amount (half a season) to gauge the impact of AHL development on the lineup. And out of players who played 40 games in our minor league system, to play at least 40 games for the Canucks (in a season, prorated for lockout) and 150 games in their NHL.

Interesting tidbit: the 2011 cup finals team had 11 players suit up during our playoff run who played a minimum of 40 games in our minor league system. 

Here are some of the players we have developed
 

Quote

 

Burke Era: Matt Cooke (55 AHL, 1056 NHL career),  Brent Sopel (195 AHL, 659 NHL career), Artem Chubarov (44 AHL, 228 NHL career), Bryan Allen (166 AHL, 721 NHL Career), Jarkko Ruutu (115 AHL, 652 NHL career), Ryan Kesler (125 AHL, 1001 NHL career), Alex Burrows (134 AHL, 913 NHL career), Josh Green (126 Canucks AHL, 99 Canucks NHL), Kevin Bieksa (134 AHL, 808 career NHL), Nolan Baumgartner (too many to count AHL, 99 Canucks NHL)

Nonis Era: Mason Raymond (44 AHL, 546 NHL career), Alex Edler (49 AHL, 947 NHL career),

Gillis Era: Jannik Hansen (141 AHL, 626 career NHL), Chris Tanev (116 AHL, 594 NHL career), Cody Hodgson (63 AHL, 328 NHL career), Jordan Schroeder (204 AHL, 165 NHL career), Rick Rypien RIP (130 AHL, 119 Canucks)

Benning Era: Jake Virtanen (67 AHL, 317 NHL Career), Alex Biega (176 AHL, 241 NHL career)

 

Missed the cut: Michael Grabner (180 Canucks AHL, 640 NHL with only 29 for Canucks), Kevin Connauton (217 Canucks AHL, 334 NHL career), Zack Kassian (only 29 games for Chicago Wolves), Nikolay Goldobin (84 Canucks AHL, 125 career), Brendan Gaunce (only 118 NHL games), Zack MacEwen (76 NHL games), Jonah Gadjovich, Olli Juolevi, Kole Lind

 

 

We can see the Burke era developed a tonne of talent, largely thanks to the great relationship with the Manitoba Moose. We can see a massive drop off in the Gillis era, where there was a strained relationship with the Chicago Wolves plus having to share with the St. Louis Blues so our players weren't being prioritized. Gillis saw this as a major issue and the Canucks purchased a farm team to have control. 

 

Given Benning has had a losing team it is shocking how few players have developed out of our farm system. Jake Virtanen is more of an example of what when wrong than right (he should have stayed much longer in the AHL) and the only real success story is Biega who was already 26 when we acquired him and was a 7th dman who we gave away for nothing. Overall there has been a lack of developing players in the AHL (aforementioned Virtanen, McCann), giving developed players a good look in the NHL (Dahlen, Gadjovich, Lind, Juolevi), or properly developing players, perhaps to bottom 6 roles (Gaunce, Jensen).

 

The Abbotsford Canucks currently sit with a losing record, are ranked 26th out of 31 teams, and our top performing prospect is 7th in team scoring. 

 

 

 

[Down by the River]

I normally do the Prospect Tracker thread every year. I mostly just didn't have time to do this for the 2021-2022 season. Given the depressing start to the Canucks' season, I was going to start the tracker thread again...

 

Then I looked at what was in the cupboard and decided it was equally depressing. 

 

This team isn't in the 8th year of a rebuild. It is in the first year of a rebuild that restarts every season. Eight years of taking one step forward from ~October-~April, then taking another step back from ~April-~August.

[DeNiro]

This is the result of trading so many 2nd and 3rd round picks. It’s finally caught up to Benning.

 

Our 1st rounders have been able to step right into the NHL from other leagues. Hoglander as a 2nd rounder was able to do it too. And Demko a 2nd rounder was able to do it after a bit of time in the minors.

 

But this is the time that all of those lost 2nd and 3rd rounders should be developing on the farm. That is where your depth comes from and now we don’t have any. Hence overpaying for role players like Dickinson, Pearson, Poolman, and Hamonic.
 

And then you look at guys like Lind, Gadjovich, Madden, Tryamkin who all represent wasted talent that were lost for nothing. I think Bennings time will be remembered for all the talent that was squandered as much as it was for the good picks he made.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

22 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

This is the result of trading so many 2nd and 3rd round picks. It’s finally caught up to Benning.

 

Our 1st rounders have been able to step right into the NHL from other leagues. Hoglander as a 2nd rounder was able to do it too. And Demko a 2nd rounder was able to do it after a bit of time in the minors.

 

But this is the time that all of those lost 2nd and 3rd rounders should be developing on the farm. That is where your depth comes from and now we don’t have any. Hence overpaying for role players like Dickinson, Pearson, Poolman, and Hamonic.
 

And then you look at guys like Lind, Gadjovich, Madden, Tryamkin who all represent wasted talent that were lost for nothing. I think Bennings time will be remembered for all the talent that was squandered as much as it was for the good picks he made.

You yourself said this in a movie!

 

 

 

[Wolfgang Durst]

1 hour ago, Down by the River said:

I normally do the Prospect Tracker thread every year. I mostly just didn't have time to do this for the 2021-2022 season. Given the depressing start to the Canucks' season, I was going to start the tracker thread again...

 

Then I looked at what was in the cupboard and decided it was equally depressing. 

 

This team isn't in the 8th year of a rebuild. It is in the first year of a rebuild that restarts every season. Eight years of taking one step forward from ~October-~April, then taking another step back from ~April-~August.

you are right : the rebuild seems to be a perpetual thing in VAN. The prospect pool looks really thin after this organization lost the likes of lind, gadjovich, madden. 

[-SN-]

@anyonewhocomplainsgillisemptiedthecupboards

 

Solid, well researched post, and extremely troubling. 

[D-Money]

The Benning era is a complete and utter disaster, at all levels.

[Drive-By Body Pierce]

One thing to add though, regarding the 2011 squad (and other years in that timeframe or a bit before)...were those games played in the AHL during the 04-05 lockout?

 

I would also be curious about how many players developed in leagues overseas, and for how long.

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by Drive-By Body Pierce

[kanucks25]

Magic bean trades, wasted resources on filling the "age-gap", rushing players and/or giving up on them too early.

 

If he just stuck to mostly drafting & developing he probably wouldn't have been too bad of a GM.

 

Benning cut his own legs off. Unfortunately, due to arrogance and/or ignorance, the shortcuts he's taken has crippled this team.

[Tank4Bedard]

1 hour ago, kanucks25 said:

the shortcuts he's taken has crippled this team.

Lindey Vey for a 2nd babyyy. #NeverForget

[bigbadcanucks]

The Benning era will be known as the Lost Years.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

One thing I noticed on our current squad is the lack of skaters developed in the AHL. Other than Demko we don't have anyone in the lineup who played significant games for a minor league affiliate. As point of comparison Toronto has six players - I only use that comparison because I would usually attend Marlies - Comets games when Utica visited Toronto. Guys that we have developed for a long time - Juolevi, Mac, Gadjovich were essentially tossed when ready to make the lineup. 

I decided to dig into the Canucks seasons and see what the numbers looked like in previous years. Using 40 games in our AHL system I felt was at least a decent amount (half a season) to gauge the impact of AHL development on the lineup. And out of players who played 40 games in our minor league system, to play at least 40 games for the Canucks (in a season, prorated for lockout) and 150 games in their NHL.

Interesting tidbit: the 2011 cup finals team had 11 players suit up during our playoff run who played a minimum of 40 games in our minor league system. 

Here are some of the players we have developed
 

 

We can see the Burke era developed a tonne of talent, largely thanks to the great relationship with the Manitoba Moose. We can see a massive drop off in the Gillis era, where there was a strained relationship with the Chicago Wolves plus having to share with the St. Louis Blues so our players weren't being prioritized. Gillis saw this as a major issue and the Canucks purchased a farm team to have control. 

 

Given Benning has had a losing team it is shocking how few players have developed out of our farm system. Jake Virtanen is more of an example of what when wrong than right (he should have stayed much longer in the AHL) and the only real success story is Biega who was already 26 when we acquired him and was a 7th dman who we gave away for nothing. Overall there has been a lack of developing players in the AHL (aforementioned Virtanen, McCann), giving developed players a good look in the NHL (Dahlen, Gadjovich, Lind, Juolevi), or properly developing players, perhaps to bottom 6 roles (Gaunce, Jensen).

 

The Abbotsford Canucks currently sit with a losing record, are ranked 26th out of 31 teams, and our top performing prospect is 7th in team scoring. 

 

 

 

I don't tend to draw too many conclusions from a AHL club with a great record as they could always get that kind of performance with a stacked roster full of AHL vets (that don't have that great a chance to get more than a 'cup of coffee' at the NHL level).  Like the Chicago Wolves used to be for a while.

 

 

[canucklehead44]

Just now, NewbieCanuckFan said:

I don't tend to draw too many conclusions from a AHL club with a great record as they could always get that kind of performance with a stacked roster full of AHL vets (that don't have that great a chance to get more than a 'cup of coffee' at the NHL level).  Like the Chicago Wolves used to be for a while.

 

 

For sure, but I think having prospects develop in a winning environment is beneficial. The fact that the team is filled with vets and at the bottom of the standings isn't ideal. 

[wildcam]

7 hours ago, canucklehead44 said:

One thing I noticed on our current squad is the lack of skaters developed in the AHL. Other than Demko we don't have anyone in the lineup who played significant games for a minor league affiliate. As point of comparison Toronto has six players - I only use that comparison because I would usually attend Marlies - Comets games when Utica visited Toronto. Guys that we have developed for a long time - Juolevi, Mac, Gadjovich were essentially tossed when ready to make the lineup. 

I decided to dig into the Canucks seasons and see what the numbers looked like in previous years. Using 40 games in our AHL system I felt was at least a decent amount (half a season) to gauge the impact of AHL development on the lineup. And out of players who played 40 games in our minor league system, to play at least 40 games for the Canucks (in a season, prorated for lockout) and 150 games in their NHL.

Interesting tidbit: the 2011 cup finals team had 11 players suit up during our playoff run who played a minimum of 40 games in our minor league system. 

Here are some of the players we have developed
 

 

We can see the Burke era developed a tonne of talent, largely thanks to the great relationship with the Manitoba Moose. We can see a massive drop off in the Gillis era, where there was a strained relationship with the Chicago Wolves plus having to share with the St. Louis Blues so our players weren't being prioritized. Gillis saw this as a major issue and the Canucks purchased a farm team to have control. 

 

Given Benning has had a losing team it is shocking how few players have developed out of our farm system. Jake Virtanen is more of an example of what when wrong than right (he should have stayed much longer in the AHL) and the only real success story is Biega who was already 26 when we acquired him and was a 7th dman who we gave away for nothing. Overall there has been a lack of developing players in the AHL (aforementioned Virtanen, McCann), giving developed players a good look in the NHL (Dahlen, Gadjovich, Lind, Juolevi), or properly developing players, perhaps to bottom 6 roles (Gaunce, Jensen).

 

The Abbotsford Canucks currently sit with a losing record, are ranked 26th out of 31 teams, and our top performing prospect is 7th in team scoring. 

 

 

 

Maybe the reason we don't have so many player developing in the AHL is they made the big club???

Boeser 24, Petey 22,  Hughes 21, Podkolzin, 20, Hoglander 21  these guy all made the NHL right away?

[Makaramel MacKhiato]

I remember when Gillis traded away all our picks too. 

[Ghostsof1915]

One thing I don't like. Is Benning seems to be very random on his patience for players.

Some he will give them all the time they need and then some.

Some just get traded before they get developed.

 

I think Benning is a good scout. But he's out of his depth as a GM.

 

[canucklehead44]

14 hours ago, Top Sven Baercheese said:

I remember when Gillis traded away all our picks too. 

Benning had net negative picks + downgrades as well during an era where we were never a contender, one playoff appearance with a first round loss and another playoff appearance off of a technicality. Picks are often acquired/traded away at the deadline which makes this such a head shaker. When you win President's Trophies that means you are a contender and should do whatever it takes to win. 

 

Gillis was in win now mode until the last year where he acquired Bo Horvat, purchased an AHL club, and spent a tonne of money on scouts to kick off the rebuild and was subsequently canned. And and this stage we can stop blaming Gillis, it has been long enough that we can't use that excuse for Benning's poor performance. 

 

This post was to strictly look at player development which has been awful. Benning has actually been extremely lucky with players who dropped - Hoglander was a first rounder who fell, Podz was a top 3 who fell, Hughes I thought we had no chance on getting. He has been able to bring in players who won/nominated for top player awards in the SHL and NCAA. Also Benning was pushing to pick Glass over EP - thankfully Delorme pushed back hard. 

 

Also draft position makes a big difference in the quality of picks. Comparing Gillis' first round picks to the next player selected his picks actually have 51 more career points. Benning's picks compared to the next player chosen is -214. 

 

Gillis traded picks and his drafting sucks but the situation was different. Benning somehow managed to go into a win-now mode and still post one of the worst all time records for a GM of his tenure. This means he didn't acquire picks, weaponize cap space, and also handcuffed the team once they were ready to compete with awful contracts. 

All in all Benning was a horrible GM that for whatever reason had a very strong support base amongst fans. Not everything he did was bad, but it always felt he had no plan it was one step forward two steps back. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[canucklehead44]

14 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

One thing I don't like. Is Benning seems to be very random on his patience for players.

Some he will give them all the time they need and then some.

Some just get traded before they get developed.

 

I think Benning is a good scout. But he's out of his depth as a GM.

 

For sure, the way players were handled was so random. For some reason we traded a 2nd for Vey and handed him an opportunity when he wasn't really good, Kenins had a short leash, Corrado was waived so we could get game time even though he was developed at that stage, McCann and Virtanen were rushed into the NHL when they were clearly not ready, Gaunce was treated like absolute trash given horrible minutes but still doing quite well before getting buried again https://thecanuckway.com/2019/01/10/vancouver-canucks-brendan-gaunce-deserves-a-call-up/. Also why did Gaudette only spend 14 games in the AHL?

Long Leash/Not Developed:
- Vey

- Hutton
- Virtanen

- Gaudette

 

Short Leash/Given up too soon

- Schroeder

- Corrado (better to have just kept him as a spare)

- Gaunce

- Tryamkin

- Forsling

- McCann

- Dahlen

- Juolevi

- Madden

- MacEwen (he could fit into the next category as well) 

Handled properly
- Goldobin
- Jensen
- Lind

 

 

 

[Attila Umbrus]

The one thing I’m curious to see about our AHL team is if they will improve with the change of direction.

 

Our farm team record resembles our NHL clubs middling record ever since Green took over.

 

Cull has been forced to play Greens systems for years now and I honestly think we will see a rebound there as well with a new experienced voice like Bruce. 
 

It seems a lot of places you look there is success after the canucks…

 

- Utica is one of the best teams in the ahl this year 

- Edler is awesome in LA

- Dahlen is doing well with the Sharks

- Scmidt doing well with the Jets

- Tanev and Marky rocking it in Calgary

 

It screams incompetent systems to me when these vets leave, they knew Greens tactics do not work in the nhl. You even have our current roster throwing the towel in because Green is over his head and they don’t buy the message anymore.

 

 

I wish all the best to Green and Baumer but it was time to go. 
 

My only hope is that this team doesn’t turn to the old boys club to look for permanent solutions…Edmonton did it for years with no success..,finally bring a real GM in and now look at em.

 

 

[Warhippy]

Have been considering this myself.  it almost seems that the baby nucks are an afterthought more than anything.  instead of developing players they're taking cast offs  and trying to win secondary trophies.

 

Every prospect we put in the AHL seems to have the same struggles we saw kids have under green.  Minimal ice time, minimal development.

 

I truly wonder what it will take to see this organization properly develop players as a whole instead of constantly taking 24-28 year old cast offs and hoping for the best.

 

Maybe the Twins could cut their teeth in Abby with a full mandate towards development and the like.  Because every prospect we had under benning was either traded, released or effectively ignored and the ONLY prospect we can say we successfully developed under the system was MacEwen and where is he now?