Lack of AHL Player Development - Skaters

[filthycanuck]

On 2/8/2022 at 2:35 PM, Timråfan said:

This is something that is proof of my critics against Utica/Cull/coaches/Benning when the Dahlenstory hit the fan and Palmu lurking in the background.

Benning actually defended the $&!#ty coaching by Cull and players like Reid Boucher got most out of playing in Utica. Sad…

I agree thats why Ive been harping on the farm team should be playing a major part in the teams success, not just 1st rounders just making it to the team. Tampa Bay's roster has a lot of players that were groomed in Syracuse, not just 1st round talents but mid round picks that are playing key roles for their team. Pittsburgh practically created a new window for the team with the simple fact that their farm team was developing players up the brim that they are able to supplement Malkin, Crosby and Letang fresh legs to work with.

[wildcam]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:52 PM, Timråfan said:

You can’t count on Rathbone and Lockwood etc because prospects from Utica hasn’t managed to take the step up to NHL level. 

Same manager with Abbotsford as Utica...Rathbone and Lockwood are NHL players..No questions...

[Timråfan]

7 minutes ago, wildcam said:

Same manager with Abbotsford as Utica...Rathbone and Lockwood are NHL players..No questions...

Well, I would wait a bit before I say anything.

Pouliot was also good in AHL.

Gaudette was like an energizer bunny when he started NHL. 

 

I'm not particular impressed by Cull as a coach. I think he is good at producing mindless drones not capable of veing creative and creativity is needed at the highest level. 

[filthycanuck]

4 hours ago, wildcam said:

Same manager with Abbotsford as Utica...Rathbone and Lockwood are NHL players..No questions...

A lot of people thought Jordan Subban was a shoe in to be in the bigs, where is he now? Id temper my expectations on Rathbone and not be too overzealous

[Ray_Cathode]

8 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

A lot of people thought Jordan Subban was a shoe in to be in the bigs, where is he now? Id temper my expectations on Rathbone and not be too overzealous

Jordan was not a great defender, he seemed to think defending was the job of the guy behind him. This was known about Subban from the beginning. Rathbone seems to read the attack well, and has extremely good lateral movement. He is bigger and stronger than Hughes. Rathbone suffered along with every other defender early this season under the Green Regime defensive system, he got over it in a couple of games in Abby.

 

you really need to watch this guy yourself to see just what he can do.

[lmm]

13 hours ago, wildcam said:

Same manager with Abbotsford as Utica...Rathbone and Lockwood are NHL players..No questions...

with a past history including Joulevi, Gaudette, Virtanen and Goldobin, how can you sat, "No questions"?

[bigbadcanucks]

22 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

A lot of people thought Jordan Subban was a shoe in to be in the bigs, where is he now? Id temper my expectations on Rathbone and not be too overzealous

You're comparing Jordan Subban to Jack Rathbone?  Really? 

 

Subban's offensive numbers in the AHL is dwarfed by Rathbone, and Rathbone's defensive game is far more mature than Subban could ever hope for.  Subban is a career long minus player (he's -22 in the ECHL for goodness sake...-21 in the DEL)

 

The one thing I will concede about Rathbone is that he hasn't done much in the NHL. He's done great in the AHL (though it's a relatively small sample size). 

 

One thing for sure, Rathbone has earned the opportunity to show what he can do in the NHL.  Something that could NEVER have been said about Subban.  And no, no rational person is expecting Rathbone to replace Hughes anytime soon (that last comment is not directed towards you @filthycanuck).

 

Additionally, Will Lockwood is asserting himself as a bonafide NHL player.  I'll take Lockwood at ELC over Motte at the speculated $2M+ as a bottom six forward anytime.

 

With the graduation of Demko, Lockwood to the NHL, and potential graduation of Rathbone and Martin, the development of players through the AHL is starting to look a little better.  Maybe it's not so much about the "program", but has more to do with the quality of players coming through.  If that's the case, that is on the people who are drafting the players/prospects.

Edited April 14, 2022 by bigbadcanucks

[Ray_Cathode]

On 3/24/2022 at 1:49 AM, filthycanuck said:

Its a waste of time debating with Dazzle. The guy is a massive Benning fanboy. Just look at his posts, the guy gets massively offended when people dare diss his precious Jimbo.

I try to take everybody seriously, but sometimes that doesn’t work out. Thanks for th3 heads up.

[wildcam]

17 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

A lot of people thought Jordan Subban was a shoe in to be in the bigs, where is he now? Id temper my expectations on Rathbone and not be too overzealous

Rathbone 22, 5'11,  has elite skating and very offensive minded..This skilled D man will be on the Canucks next year with his pure talent..

Lockwood 23, 5'11, Great skater with speed with gritty side,  solid bottom 6 guy on cheap contract every team needs with cap world..

Both of these guys will fit in great next year...

[Kootenay Gold]

13 minutes ago, wildcam said:

Rathbone 22, 5'11,  has elite skating and very offensive minded..This skilled D man will be on the Canucks next year with his pure talent..

Lockwood 23, 5'11, Great skater with speed with gritty side,  solid bottom 6 guy on cheap contract every team needs with cap world..

Both of these guys will fit in great next year...

Both players would have to bomb badly in the upcoming preseason to not make the team IMO.

 

[filthycanuck]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:00 AM, bigbadcanucks said:

You're comparing Jordan Subban to Jack Rathbone?  Really? 

 

Subban's offensive numbers in the AHL is dwarfed by Rathbone, and Rathbone's defensive game is far more mature than Subban could ever hope for.  Subban is a career long minus player (he's -22 in the ECHL for goodness sake...-21 in the DEL)

 

The one thing I will concede about Rathbone is that he hasn't done much in the NHL. He's done great in the AHL (though it's a relatively small sample size). 

 

One thing for sure, Rathbone has earned the opportunity to show what he can do in the NHL.  Something that could NEVER have been said about Subban.  And no, no rational person is expecting Rathbone to replace Hughes anytime soon (that last comment is not directed towards you @filthycanuck).

 

Additionally, Will Lockwood is asserting himself as a bonafide NHL player.  I'll take Lockwood at ELC over Motte at the speculated $2M+ as a bottom six forward anytime.

 

With the graduation of Demko, Lockwood to the NHL, and potential graduation of Rathbone and Martin, the development of players through the AHL is starting to look a little better.  Maybe it's not so much about the "program", but has more to do with the quality of players coming through.  If that's the case, that is on the people who are drafting the players/prospects.

No doubt Rathbone is a much better player. The comparison is where they were in the depth chart. Subban was a mid round pick, same with Rathbone. Subban during his tenure with the farm, he was the only offensive dman we had coming up the ranks with no one close to him. Same with Rathbone right now

 

 The team has always had a scarcity for puck moving dmen with offensive skill that fans tend to glorify them thinking they are just gonna walk into Rogers arena and theyll all of a sudden be pp1 or pp2 from the get go. Hughes was a rare breed of talent and us landing a dman of that calibre doesnt happen often

 

What im saying is fans should temper expectations. Rathbone should probably be playing here next season, just dont expect him to be Sam Girard to Quinns Cale Makar. Not right away at least

[bigbadcanucks]

7 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

No doubt Rathbone is a much better player. The comparison is where they were in the depth chart. Subban was a mid round pick, same with Rathbone. Subban during his tenure with the farm, he was the only offensive dman we had coming up the ranks with no one close to him. Same with Rathbone right now

 

 The team has always had a scarcity for puck moving dmen with offensive skill that fans tend to glorify them thinking they are just gonna walk into Rogers arena and theyll all of a sudden be pp1 or pp2 from the get go. Hughes was a rare breed of talent and us landing a dman of that calibre doesnt happen often

 

What im saying is fans should temper expectations. Rathbone should probably be playing here next season, just dont expect him to be Sam Girard to Quinns Cale Makar. Not right away at least

Thanks for clarifying, @filthycanuck.  I get what you're saying...I think I was a little confused with your comment "A lot of people thought Jordan Subban was a shoe in to be in the bigs", which I don't think was the case.  Wishful and hopeful, but I don't think many thought Subban due to his long list of deficiencies was going to be a regular NHL player (the lines between hope/expect/reality is really blurred here on CDC).  Maybe some thought Frankie Corrado was a shoe-in (sorry, I digressed).

 

Though I don't expect this to be the case, I'm hopeful that Quinn Hughes develops into a Phil Housley and Jack Rathbone develops into a Brian Leetch on the very high side of the scale or a Torey Krug on the middle part of the scale.  Wouldn't that be something if that is what Hughes and Rathbone developed into?  Surround them with a bunch of bruisers and the Canucks defence will be set for the next 10 years.  One can fantasize.

[wai_lai416]

i don't see how the canucks can ever fit 2 tiny defenseman in the same lineup and expect great result. both of them are literally so tiny they are not effective at all on the penalty kill as neither can clear the crease or players in front of the net.. and when it comes to the playoffs where it gets even more physical? our defense is going to get run over with 2 tiny defenseman.

[bigbadcanucks]

9 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i don't see how the canucks can ever fit 2 tiny defenseman in the same lineup and expect great result. both of them are literally so tiny they are not effective at all on the penalty kill as neither can clear the crease or players in front of the net.. and when it comes to the playoffs where it gets even more physical? our defense is going to get run over with 2 tiny defenseman.

May I suggest you book an appointment with an optometrist? 

 

I guess you haven't been witness to Hughes' effectiveness on the PK since Boudreau has given him some PK time.  I would cap it at two smallish defencemen -- Hughes and Rathbone. 

[wai_lai416]

35 minutes ago, bigbadcanucks said:

May I suggest you book an appointment with an optometrist? 

 

I guess you haven't been witness to Hughes' effectiveness on the PK since Boudreau has given him some PK time.  I would cap it at two smallish defencemen -- Hughes and Rathbone. 

lol so you going to stick 2 tiny defenseman non stop out there? once we trade myers or let him walk in ufa we'll have the smallest defense corp in the league and one of if not the smallest team in the league. just coz hughes is effective on the PK means rathbone is the same? rathbone is not even close to hughes level in skill nor his level in talent/potential. we don't need a rathbone as a bottom pairing defenseman.. rathbone is an offensive defenseman and if anything the 3rd pairing will get very limited mins and playing more of a defensive role. how often do you see ur 3rd pairing guys with your top lines? what effect does an offensive defenseman have playing with guys that are limited in offense? if both hughes and rathbone are ur top 4 defenseman.. this team is in trouble.

[EP Phone Home]

I’m happy you made this thread because I made one similar to this a few years ago with the development of our prospects in Utica and I sensed something very wrong. This was around the time that Dahlen asked for a trade out, Palmu went back to Finland and there were little to no prospects that graduated under RJ and Cull. I got hosed by many on this message board and they threw out this idea that we are doing a crappy job on the farm. That I was the bad guy and that the thread was nonsense. Well I’d love to hear an update on who has graduated and come through? I heard that Klimovich was a healthy scratch and Jet Woo our best RSD on the 4th line. I don’t pay attention as much as others on here on the farm but I would love to hear what their thoughts are on Cull as a coach? I can’t accept Rutherford saying how well of a good job RJ has done when our player development has been so poor for almost a decade. Besides Demko and Lockwood, who else is there that you can point and say: hey they are doing good things on the farm. Can’t say they are. But I’d love to hear from the Canucks fans who are more in tune with the farm and I could be dead wrong with this. 

 

[King Loui]

6 hours ago, EP Phone Home said:

I’m happy you made this thread because I made one similar to this a few years ago with the development of our prospects in Utica and I sensed something very wrong. This was around the time that Dahlen asked for a trade out, Palmu went back to Finland and there were little to no prospects that graduated under RJ and Cull. I got hosed by many on this message board and they threw out this idea that we are doing a crappy job on the farm. That I was the bad guy and that the thread was nonsense. Well I’d love to hear an update on who has graduated and come through? I heard that Klimovich was a healthy scratch and Jet Woo our best RSD on the 4th line. I don’t pay attention as much as others on here on the farm but I would love to hear what their thoughts are on Cull as a coach? I can’t accept Rutherford saying how well of a good job RJ has done when our player development has been so poor for almost a decade. Besides Demko and Lockwood, who else is there that you can point and say: hey they are doing good things on the farm. Can’t say they are. But I’d love to hear from the Canucks fans who are more in tune with the farm and I could be dead wrong with this. 

 

Not just prospect development but the team overall has finished outside of the playoffs nearly every year since Benning and Ryan Johnson were hired.  Our AHL team hasn't been successful since 2014 when it was still under the watch of Mike Gillis.  Weird

[D-Money]

2 hours ago, King Loui said:

Not just prospect development but the team overall has finished outside of the playoffs nearly every year since Benning and Ryan Johnson were hired.  Our AHL team hasn't been successful since 2014 when it was still under the watch of Mike Gillis.  Weird

Same with our NHL team. Weird.

[alt kilgore]

I liked hearing Trent Cull in his interview today.  He lamented on how the previous regime didn't develop prospects long enough in the AHL before throwing them into the NHL.  Using Gaudette as an example. And how things were done very differently in his stint for Tampa Bay's farm team. A player didn't advance for a "cup of coffee", it was only after he was definitely ready.   A lot of fans screaming about Rathbone not being up here longer (before, and after his injury).  

 

But the only way a team can keep more young players down there is if they actually have MORE PLAYERS.  Benning always felt pressured to bring up prospects before they were ready to make up for his dumb moves with his veteran acquisitions. Add that to his draining the team of draft picks, prospects, caused a snowball of other issues.  Like having even less choices, indirectly caused by less prospects, and the chances that an outlier would do better than expected.  Another issue was that it meant more times sending up and down through waivers, which meant we lost a few of them that way as well, which was the last thing we needed on a sparse farm.

 

Another advantage is you don't start a players ELC until he is more than ready, so those years won't be cap wasted with a slump and forced to make a hard decision.  One wonders if Joulevi would have done better if we were only now bringing him up. Or if we'd let Gadjovich, MacEwen just stay there and play.  If we are going to do this right from now on, it means not seeing our picks for 3 - 5 years, and resist offering a cup of coffee just to "take a look". Combined with keeping, even adding, to our picks.  What eventually would happen is a plethora of prospects that make up the minor league team, less FA mercenaries to take up the slack. More chance for a surprise better than first evaluated player shining.  And there'd always be a few "veteran" prospects who would be chomping at the bit and more than ready to joint the big club. More than ready, instead of question marks.

 

And also when you have a full farmhouse, you then can entertain trading a few of them for immediate help for a run. Not like the last GM and the desperate day to day, season to season, style where he was poaching from the farm long before the team was able to take that kind of hit.

 

But it makes me a little morose about the fact that to do it right like this, it may actually take another 5 years to get back to a healthy team in all departments, from Vancouver to Abby.

[AK_19]

26 minutes ago, kilgore said:

I liked hearing Trent Cull in his interview today.  He lamented on how the previous regime didn't develop prospects long enough in the AHL before throwing them into the NHL.  Using Gaudette as an example. And how things were done very differently in his stint for Tampa Bay's farm team. A player didn't advance for a "cup of coffee", it was only after he was definitely ready.   A lot of fans screaming about Rathbone not being up here longer (before, and after his injury).  

 

But the only way a team can keep more young players down there is if they actually have MORE PLAYERS.  Benning always felt pressured to bring up prospects before they were ready to make up for his dumb moves with his veteran acquisitions. Add that to his draining the team of draft picks, prospects, caused a snowball of other issues.  Like having even less choices, indirectly caused by less prospects, and the chances that an outlier would do better than expected.  Another issue was that it meant more times sending up and down through waivers, which meant we lost a few of them that way as well, which was the last thing we needed on a sparse farm.

 

Another advantage is you don't start a players ELC until he is more than ready, so those years won't be cap wasted with a slump and forced to make a hard decision.  One wonders if Joulevi would have done better if we were only now bringing him up. Or if we'd let Gadjovich, MacEwen just stay there and play.  If we are going to do this right from now on, it means not seeing our picks for 3 - 5 years, and resist offering a cup of coffee just to "take a look". Combined with keeping, even adding, to our picks.  What eventually would happen is a plethora of prospects that make up the minor league team, less FA mercenaries to take up the slack. More chance for a surprise better than first evaluated player shining.  And there'd always be a few "veteran" prospects who would be chomping at the bit and more than ready to joint the big club. More than ready, instead of question marks.

 

And also when you have a full farmhouse, you then can entertain trading a few of them for immediate help for a run. Not like the last GM and the desperate day to day, season to season, style where he was poaching from the farm long before the team was able to take that kind of hit.

 

But it makes me a little morose about the fact that to do it right like this, it may actually take another 5 years to get back to a healthy team in all departments, from Vancouver to Abby.

His interview was enlightening. It can be found here: https://halford-brough-in-the-morning.simplecast.com/episodes/hour-3-the-canucks-rushed-adam-gaudette

 

However, I do wish the interviewers had some push back on what Cull was saying. End of the day, there's no player he can point to in his entire tenure here that was a success (I don't count Demko since they generally just work with the goalie coach). Also I wish there was some pushback on Ryan Johnson the GM. The guy knew we had 4-5 prospects all on the wing (Dahlen, Pulmu, Gadjovich, Lind, etc.) coming to the team and he loads up with AHL winger vet signings blocking their development time and basically no centres to play with. It made absolutely no sense and two of our prospects bolted after or during that season. I feel everyone's throwing Benning under the bus in order to save their own jobs. 

 

Your point about the ELC doesn't make sense to me. They are burning the years they are playing in the AHL.