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Lack of AHL Player Development - Skaters

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5 hours ago, AK_19 said:

His interview was enlightening. It can be found here: https://halford-brough-in-the-morning.simplecast.com/episodes/hour-3-the-canucks-rushed-adam-gaudette

 

However, I do wish the interviewers had some push back on what Cull was saying. End of the day, there's no player he can point to in his entire tenure here that was a success (I don't count Demko since they generally just work with the goalie coach). Also I wish there was some pushback on Ryan Johnson the GM. The guy knew we had 4-5 prospects all on the wing (Dahlen, Pulmu, Gadjovich, Lind, etc.) coming to the team and he loads up with AHL winger vet signings blocking their development time and basically no centres to play with. It made absolutely no sense and two of our prospects bolted after or during that season. I feel everyone's throwing Benning under the bus in order to save their own jobs. 

 

Your point about the ELC doesn't make sense to me. They are burning the years they are playing in the AHL. 

 

Yeah I was mistaken on when the ELC would start.  My point for that would be if they are kept in the AHL for pretty well all of their ELC, and haven't much NHL experience, if at all, they can't demand too much for that first post ELC contract.  Which would still help keep cap costs down.

 

I remember that controversy with playing vets over our own prospects.  Sounds almost like Cull's is diametrically opposite of Johnson's approach is.  Thats the part I globbed onto, and agreed with.  We do not keep them long enough learning on the farm, gaining confidence. Using the space and time to be able to learn and grow even more.  To the point that they are over prepared, not underprepared. Once they are up here, they should rarely have to be sent back down, (unless for other reasons like an injured player replacement, or a cap move).  This happened way too much between the two clubs. Empty coffee cups strewn all over the the place.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, kilgore said:

I liked hearing Trent Cull in his interview today.  He lamented on how the previous regime didn't develop prospects long enough in the AHL before throwing them into the NHL. ..

 

5 hours ago, AK_19 said:

However, I do wish the interviewers had some push back on what Cull was saying. End of the day, there's no player he can point to in his entire tenure here that was a success (I don't count Demko since they generally just work with the goalie coach).

...

Your point about the ELC doesn't make sense to me. They are burning the years they are playing in the AHL. 

1. I also found the Cull interview interesting. Seems like even Cull realized Benning was messing up. Before hearing that I was wondering why JR apparently gave him a vote of confidence. Cull may have more on the ball that I would have given him credit for.

 

2. But, it is undeniable that his record in player development is weak. Despite my point 1 I would still be inclined to fire him.

 

3. On the ELC point raised by @AK_19 Benning's handling used to really upset me. The point is that Benning would often play a guy for a few games at the end of the season. That would "burn up" an ELC year that would otherwise "slide" (i.e. not count). I heard Benning defend that approach by saying a guy's second contract would be cheaper if he came up sooner rather that a year later. I wrote a post at the time saying that this reasoning is idiotic, which it is. It never pays to burn up ELC years unnecessarily. 

 

4. Playing in the AHL does use up ELC years but you want guys in the AHL long enough to give them a good foundation and you don't want them on the big team until they can make a positive contribution. My view is that both VIrtanen and Gaudette hurt the team by being brought up too early. ELC years in the AHL are not wasted years. They are legitimate development years.

 

5. I am just so happy Benning is gone. As a guy who came up the scouting side the assumption was that he would emphasize drafting and developing players (as Linden wanted). But he turned out to be terrible on the development front, always trying to take short cuts to "win now" that almost never worked out. I still can't believe Aquilini  kept him as GM for so long. Benning's one really good skill must have been "managing up" -- always telling the boss what he wanted to hear. 

Edited by JamesB
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, JamesB said:

 

1. I also found the Cull interview interesting. Seems like even Cull realized Benning was messing up. Before hearing that I was wondering why JR apparently gave him a vote of confidence. Cull may have more on the ball that I would have given him credit for.

 

2. But, it is undeniable that his record in player development is weak. Despite my point 1 I would still be inclined to fire him.

 

3. On the ELC point raised by @AK_19 Benning's handling used to really upset me. The point is that Benning would often play a guy for a few games at the end of the season. That would "burn up" an ELC year that would otherwise "slide" (i.e. not count). I heard Benning defend that approach by saying a guy's second contract would be cheaper if he came up sooner rather that a year later. I wrote a post at the time saying that this reasoning is idiotic, which it is. It never pays to burn up ELC years unnecessarily. 

 

4. Playing in the AHL does use up ELC years but you want guys in the AHL long enough to give them a good foundation and you don't want them on the big team until they can make a positive contribution. My view is that both VIrtanen and Gaudette hurt the team by being brought up too early. ELC years in the AHL are not wasted years. They are legitimate development years.

 

5. I am just so happy Benning is gone. As a guy who came up the scouting side the assumption was that he would emphasize drafting and developing players (as Linden wanted). But he turned out to be terrible on the development front, always trying to take short cuts to "win now" that almost never worked out. I still can't believe Aquilini  kept him as GM for so long. Benning's one really good skill must have been "managing up" -- always telling the boss what he wanted to hear. 

J.B. was a rookie G.M. he was not trained properly to be a G.M. He had to learn the job on the spot. Trevor Linden had the luxury of calling around the league to ask them how to do his job. J.B. did not. The ownership had more experience owning this team than J.B. managing a team. This would have made J.B. very insecure in terms of his stature in the organization and in terms of dealing with the ownership's expectations. 

 

To be a corporate executive is very different than being simply a corporate employee. 

Edited by Maddogy
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, kilgore said:

 

Yeah I was mistaken on when the ELC would start.  My point for that would be if they are kept in the AHL for pretty well all of their ELC, and haven't much NHL experience, if at all, they can't demand too much for that first post ELC contract.  Which would still help keep cap costs down.

 

I remember that controversy with playing vets over our own prospects.  Sounds almost like Cull's is diametrically opposite of Johnson's approach is.  Thats the part I globbed onto, and agreed with.  We do not keep them long enough learning on the farm, gaining confidence. Using the space and time to be able to learn and grow even more.  To the point that they are over prepared, not underprepared. Once they are up here, they should rarely have to be sent back down, (unless for other reasons like an injured player replacement, or a cap move).  This happened way too much between the two clubs. Empty coffee cups strewn all over the the place.

Trent Cull's approach means that a significant number of young players would not like Vancouver as a destination. They do not want to be "stuck" in the AHL for  years before stepping into the NHL. Would Adam Gaudette agree to remain in the AHL until he was absolutely ready? Would  Andrei Kuzmenko come to Vancouver if he has to be stuck in the AHL to learn PK? There is no perfect approach to player development. 

Edited by Maddogy
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On 5/11/2022 at 9:58 PM, JamesB said:

I would still be inclined to fire him.

I wouldn't hesistate, Cull cherry picked a few names here and there and didn't own up to his own short comings. 

 

He is part of the past that needs to go.

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On 5/12/2022 at 9:51 AM, Maddogy said:

Trent Cull's approach means that a significant number of young players would not like Vancouver as a destination. They do not want to be "stuck" in the AHL for  years before stepping into the NHL. Would Adam Gaudette agree to remain in the AHL until he was absolutely ready? Would  Andrei Kuzmenko come to Vancouver if he has to be stuck in the AHL to learn PK? There is no perfect approach to player development. 

I'm not sure that what you're saying is coming from Cull.  I think it would be the Vancouver management that decides on which prospect gets a

call-up to the big call (and of those, who is good enough to stay).  They are also the staff that talk to potential players that are thinking

of signing with the Canucks. 

 

As far as his coaching abilities go, I thought that the new management in Vancouver said they were quite happy with the Abby staff.

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On 5/12/2022 at 6:51 PM, Maddogy said:

Trent Cull's approach means that a significant number of young players would not like Vancouver as a destination. They do not want to be "stuck" in the AHL for  years before stepping into the NHL. Would Adam Gaudette agree to remain in the AHL until he was absolutely ready? Would  Andrei Kuzmenko come to Vancouver if he has to be stuck in the AHL to learn PK? There is no perfect approach to player development. 

Rutheford says his preference is to over-ripe players in the AHL rather than bring them up too early.  He also says that their pitch to European UFAs will be that they can offer them a roster spot as it's not like Vancouver made the playoffs - ie Kuzmenko is not going to be treated the same way as a young prospect that also needs to learn what it takes to become a pro hockey player.

 

Guerin was GM of Pittsburgh's AHL team under Rutherford.  In Minnesota he keeps on saying that they want to develop players so that they become difference makers and not just guys that play in the NHL.  It's also explained that way to players.

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On 12/5/2021 at 8:29 PM, wildcam said:

Maybe the reason we don't have so many player developing in the AHL is they made the big club???

Boeser 24, Petey 22,  Hughes 21, Podkolzin, 20, Hoglander 21  these guy all made the NHL right away?

Shhh…. They are working through, what is known as the process.  
 

Wait until after the draft, ignore that the club just moved to Abbey and had to basically rebuild an AHL franchise from the ground up in one season. 
 

Forget that the farm team is in Abbey and every first year. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, JimothyTimothy said:

Correct. He constantly threw away 2nd and 3rd round picks. Those seconds often turn into solid NHL'ers. Its interesting to see the dependencies on how one decision can affect other decisions and impact the organization.

 

Someone above mentioned Cull kind of threw JB and team under the bus. Clearly, there's 2 sides, he's CYA (covering his own ass) for a lack of success in development, but at the same time JB because of his lack of ability to construct the team properly, may indeed have been calling players up too fast (Jake, Gaudette, etc).

 

When you're pressured to win and aren't winning you become reactionary and make bad decisions, to try and fix it fast. JB was a mess, the more you look at him and unravel his decisions. Watching the playoffs and how teams competing for the cup are constructed, how they are playing, how they are a strong mix of talent, speed, and toughness throughout, and then looking at the Canucks and our prospects, its frightening. We have some good pieces but we are not as close as people think in my view.


I hope JR and Alvin and the Chipmunks can make the right decisions this offseason to start righting the ship. The more I think about it, as much as I love Miller, I don't think our window will be with him at his peak (2-3 years), and even Bo. Really I think we are looking at Quinn, Petey, Demko, and Podz as the guys who will get the real shots (assuming we make the right course corrections). As a result, moving on from Miller and even Bo to fix this may be the right decision.

 

Totally agree.  If we see Miller (and others) traded for already developed players 23-26 then we know the philosophy hasn’t changed from the Benning years - just the guys following orders from the owner have.  

And so far seeing the third going for a fully developed 25 year old Dermott isn’t making me think otherwise.  

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, JimothyTimothy said:

If you're trading stars you have to be certain you're getting future stars back, the only way to know that is either you're getting a first overall who's a can't miss (and no one is trading that for a Miller or Bo because they clearly need the young player more than Bo or Miller given age), or you get players who are in the 21-25 year old range and have shown what they can do at the NHL level.

It's not often you get a 1st overall that instantaneously is a can't miss commodity. That player would almost for surely have to be a 1st or possibly 2nd overall pick. They go to lottery teams and generally those teams hold onto them. The idea that JT Miller and Bo Horvat need to be traded now because of their age, to me, is cretinous Neither is old.  They also lead the team by example. Something you cannot replace with a wave of a trade wand.  Take the currently two most important players on this team out of the equation and there is next to no leadership. This is not sanity. 

Edited by Muttley
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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2022 at 1:08 PM, awalk said:

Great share! Exactly what I was looking for when I created this thread. 

Gaudette and Hoglander are great examples of players that were rushed. But we can even go back further to Ben Hutton, Troy Stecher, Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann who were also rushed in. On top of that we had guys like Madden, Tryamkin, Palmu, Dahlen and Gadjovich who were given up on so quickly and other guys who sat in the system so long without being given much of an opportunity. 
 

Jannik Hansen is an example of a guy who wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire but was given a shot in the playoffs for us and did well, but wasn't rushed into the NHL full time the following season and went on to have a great career. 

Edited by canucklehead44
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1 hour ago, canucklehead44 said:

Great share! Exactly what I was looking for when I created this thread. 

Gaudette and Hoglander are great examples of players that were rushed. But we can even go back further to Ben Hutton, Troy Stecher, Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann who were also rushed in. On top of that we had guys like Madden, Tryamkin, Palmu, Dahlen and Gadjovich who were given up on so quickly and other guys who sat in the system so long without being given much of an opportunity. 
 

Jannik Hansen is an example of a guy who wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire but was given a shot in the playoffs for us and did well, but wasn't rushed into the NHL full time the following season and went on to have a great career. 

Yeah I've always been a fan of the long AHL development process. Nice to see Rutherford could be bringing that mentality here. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

I see the Flames are moving the Heat to Calgary. I admit I was against the Comets moving from Utica  but in retrospect I was big time wrong. Abby is working really well. 

Looks like the Flames are trying to copy the success that

the Canucks had in Abby.

 

Edited by Kootenay Gold
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