Jim Benning: A Retrospective

[psharpe07]

Forgotten positives

- Signed Horvat to a great deal.

- Signed Hughes to a great deal (especially compared to what other dmen were getting this offseason)

- Signed Petterson to a bridge (may not have been intentional, but at this point appears to reinforce my belief in bridges).

 

Forgotten debatable

- Signed Boeser to a good deal compared to other RFA's that needed to be signed at the time (though his QO is going to suck at this rate).  

[ken kaniff]

3 hours ago, psharpe07 said:

Forgotten positives

- Signed Horvat to a great deal.

- Signed Hughes to a great deal (especially compared to what other dmen were getting this offseason)

- Signed Petterson to a bridge (may not have been intentional, but at this point appears to reinforce my belief in bridges).

 

Forgotten debatable

- Signed Boeser to a good deal compared to other RFA's that needed to be signed at the time (though his QO is going to suck at this rate).  

True Horvat and Hughes are good deals.

 

Id say the Pettersson deal is debatable because he’s not playing anywhere close to that contract as is.

 

And I agree about the Boeser contract as well

[JeremyCuddles]

4 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Benning gambled a lot… He gambled with small skilled/gritty players that we don’t know will handle the play offs when the going gets tough.

Podkolzin was a gamble due to his contract in KHL. Or change gamble to parience.

But Benning got a better player in the draft because other GMs took a bigger player or didn’t want to wait on Podkolzin.

 

So ut will be interesting to see when we reach the semis and the heat is up a few grades.

I still have trouble believing GMs actually didn't like Pod's contract. Not that I don't believe it factored in their minds, but it blows my mind a GM would not draft an NHL ready 18 year old cause he had a 2 year contract in the KHL. I said at the time most of the top 10 will need 2 years anyway, others outside likely more. That's just bad GMing if you're that short sighted. I guess the argument is that they were worried that 2 years would turn longer. But I still wouldn't risk giving up a legit talent cause of a 2 year contract.

[alt kilgore]

[kanucks25]

4 hours ago, psharpe07 said:

Forgotten positives

- Signed Horvat to a great deal.

- Signed Hughes to a great deal (especially compared to what other dmen were getting this offseason)

- Signed Petterson to a bridge (may not have been intentional, but at this point appears to reinforce my belief in bridges).

 

Forgotten debatable

- Signed Boeser to a good deal compared to other RFA's that needed to be signed at the time (though his QO is going to suck at this rate).  

For the most part, his RFA deals were fine.

 

Which is also one of the easier parts of the job.

[48MPHSlapShot]

He was pretty crappy at most aspects of the job outside of drafting, although, to be fair, his trading seemed to improve later into his tenure.

 

I do think the idea of a retrospective this early is a bit unfair though. If the group of players he brought in can be built around and molded into a true contender be whoever the next GM is, he has to be given some credit for laying that foundation down, much in the same way that Burke and Nonis deserve some credit for laying down the foundation of the 2011 team.

 

Unfortunately for us, our situation would look a whole lot better had Benning's regime not used picks as currency so much, not signed such bad free agent contracts and just generally not mismanaged the cap as badly as they did. His firing was well overdue for these reasons.

 

Still, his legacy, tainted as it may be, is far from set. His fingerprints will be on this team for many, many years, for better or worse.

 

[Fred65]

Seems over simplistic but the management team all seemed to be sad and depressed people, but it filters down IMO. No one seemingly enjoying them selves, so serious and glum. Last night I sensed a different atmosphere in the arena. Fans were smiling some even laughing ( I wasn't aware that was permitted inside Rogers.) BB seems to bring a lightness to the club, what made me think about this was at the end of the game Shaw was leaving the bench and he was smiling at BB. I swear that's the first time since he arrived here I saw him smile!. Some of the players were laughing on the bench, I swear i saw players laughing. Not much for the analysts but I think it helps, what do they say "Laughter is the best medicane"

[Timråfan]

1 hour ago, N7Nucks said:

I still have trouble believing GMs actually didn't like Pod's contract. Not that I don't believe it factored in their minds, but it blows my mind a GM would not draft an NHL ready 18 year old cause he had a 2 year contract in the KHL. I said at the time most of the top 10 will need 2 years anyway, others outside likely more. That's just bad GMing if you're that short sighted. I guess the argument is that they were worried that 2 years would turn longer. But I still wouldn't risk giving up a legit talent cause of a 2 year contract.

Agree, but it is probably a factor if you choose between two players.

[MaxVerstappen33]

22 hours ago, ken kaniff said:

Positives:

-Drafted 8 NHL level players: Elias Pettersson, Quinn Hughes, Brock Boeser, Nils Hoglander, Thatcher Demko, Vasili Podkolzin, Adam Gaudette, Jared McCann

-Traded for JT Miller

-Traded a 3rd for Derek Dorsett

-Traded Bieksa for a 2nd

-Traded Gudbranson for Pearson

-Traded Shinkaruk for Granlund

-Traded Carcone for Leivo

-Signing Garland to a good contract

-Signing Demko to a good contract

-Signed and traded Vanek for Motte which has worked out well.

-Signed Vrbata

-Signed Miller

 

Debatable:

-Trading for OEL and Garland (Both are doing well but having to give up the 9th overall and a 2nd to get rid of the bad contracts JB signed is rough. OEL’s contract is tough to swallow, since imo he’s not living up to it. Good defensively but not putting up any offence)

-Let Markstrom walk for nothing (Vezina calibre G. I understand that Demko showed he was ready to take over but Marky was MVP for 2 years in a row)

-Traded for Toffoli (Big price to give up for 17 games, then didn’t even try and sign him when he fit so well with the team)

-Traded a 2nd for Baertschi (Baer had a few good seasons then got injured. Then never given a chance to make it back on the team despite playing better than certain players like Virtanen and Player Name)

-Ryan Kesler for Luca Sbisa, Nick Bonino, 1st + 3rd (I understand Kesler only allowed a trade to Anaheim, Chicago or Pittsburgh but the return was underwhelming regardless)

-Traded Jason Garrison + for a 2nd (By itself that would be a good trade but what was used with the pick is negative)

-Signed Travis Green as HC (Green has high regard around the league and honestly think he gets way too much hate)

-Traded Hansen for Goldobin (I was ok with the trade itself but didn’t develop Goldy or even let him have a chance with the team)

-Traded Burrows for Dahlen (Again I was good with the trade but didn’t develop him and traded him for a nothing)

-Traded Lack for a 3rd

 

Bad:

-Missed on Juolevi, Virtanen and every other draft pick so far (Draft Guru lol)

-Traded McCann AND a 2nd for Erik Gudbranson

-Traded Nick Bonino, Clendening and a 2nd for Sutter and a 3rd

-Traded a 2nd for Linden Vey

-Traded a 3rd for Dickinson

-Traded Gaudette for Highmore (This was a downgrade at the time. Gaudette came off a good season. Highmore is an AHL player)

-Traded Kassian and a 5th for Prust

-Traded a 3rd for Nate Schmidt then traded him for a 3rd

-Traded Dahlen for Linus Karlsson

-Let Tanev, Toffoli, Vrbata, Hamhuis, Edler, Stecher walk for nothing

-Let Goldobin, Lind and Gadjovich go for nothing (Lind and Gadj are draft misses for JB)

-Signed Willie D as a coach (He just wasn’t a good NHL coach from the start)

-Signed Virtanen then bought him out after 1 season

-Signed Jay Beagle

-Signed Michael Ferland (He had concussion issues already)

-Signed Tyler Myers

-Signed Antoine Roussel

-Signed Loui Player Name

-Signed Braden Holtby then bought him out after 1 season

-Signed Tucker Poolman

-Signed Hamonic

-Signed Sven Baertschi then put him in the minors after 1 season

-Signed Gagner

-Overpayed Tanner Pearson

-Overpayed Brandon Sutter

-Overpayed Erik Gudbranson

 

 

 

There are other smaller moves that are either slightly negative or slightly positive. They don’t mean anything imo and come out to about even.

 

Most of the Debatable points ultimately turned out negative for the team.

 

Benning is a bad GM. I don’t see how you look at this list and say he was good after 8 seasons.

Good summary but I disagree with the conclusion. Benning was an average GM. I don't think he was bad. You could see a logic in most of the deals he made and evaluate from there. With some GM's, there is no logic in their deals even.

 

I think this years signings still need an evaluation.

[MaxVerstappen33]

15 hours ago, Dazzle said:

This is something that Boudreau can say.

 

Green and Benning were awful together. That being said, all these players were Benning's vision for the most part. He just let a terrible, unproven coach run his teams. First it was WD, and then it was Green.

 

I think it was the coaching that really hurt Benning.

 I think Benning wanted to have a say in how the team played. Which is why he went for these AHL coaches. He couldn't micro manage an NHL veteran coach. Just a hunch.

[DSVII]

31 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

Good summary but I disagree with the conclusion. Benning was an average GM. I don't think he was bad. You could see a logic in most of the deals he made and evaluate from there. With some GM's, there is no logic in their deals even.

 

I think this years signings still need an evaluation.

I agree with the fact we'll have to wait a few years to see how the core he assembled pans out. But in terms of being a manager/leader of an organization, communication and culture, he's been below average.

 

I think of it this way, if he is an average GM, that means he's by definition better than at least 10-15 other GMs in the league.

 

Which 10 GMs right now would you rank lower than JB?

Edited December 7, 2021 by DSVII

[alt kilgore]

8 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

 I think Benning wanted to have a say in how the team played. Which is why he went for these AHL coaches. He couldn't micro manage an NHL veteran coach. Just a hunch.

I think it became quite clear over the years that Benning was a control freak. And his mild mannered, ah shucks personality masked that.  Not only the AHL coaches.  When anyone threatened his dictatorial methodology, they were soon gone. 

 

A capologist like Gilman to give him grief about over paying on his hunches?  Gone

 

A president like Linden to counter his "this team can be turned around quickly" fantasies?  Gone

 

An amateur scouting director that was outshining him after Benning's only #1 picks he unilaterally insisted on were failing, Virtanen and Joulevi.  He relented to Linden's suggestion to appoint Brackett and we finally had a talented director who promoted Boeser, Petey, and Hughes, among others. Kudos to Jim for agreeing with that amateur scouting dept., but to then fire Judd during such a successful drafting run, was not only puzzling, but a step back and further burdened his job duties on top of such an already sparse front office. A two person operation with his long time hockey buddy Weisbrod, someone who screwed teams everywhere he went. The smartest men in the room.

 

Thats just on the management side.  He also held grudges for players like Tryamkin who admittedly acted young and foolish when he first came over.  Its like JB took it personal, and so a capable big bodied D which we sorely lacked, was put on hold, and then lowballed so low, that he could make more in Russia than the NHL.

All the way to the other end of the scale to not communicating and respecting long time veterans on the team. Even soft spoken Tanev spoke about how he never heard from Jim.....until he was desperate. Too little too late.  More of the arrogance mixed with ignorance on how to run a hockey franchise.  Myopic describes him well.

 

So happy he's gone. And stoked about not only Boudreau, but Scotty Walker too! We can only go up from here! 

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

I think it became quite clear over the years that Benning was a control freak. And his mild mannered, ah shucks personality masked that.  Not only the AHL coaches.  When anyone threatened his dictatorial methodology, they were soon gone. 

 

A capologist like Gilman to give him grief about over paying on his hunches?  Gone

 

A president like Linden to counter his "this team can be turned around quickly" fantasies?  Gone

 

An amateur scouting director that was outshining him after Benning's only #1 picks he unilaterally insisted on were failing, Virtanen and Joulevi.  He relented to Linden's suggestion to appoint Brackett and we finally had a talented director who promoted Boeser, Petey, and Hughes, among others. Kudos to Jim for agreeing with that amateur scouting dept., but to then fire Judd during such a successful drafting run, was not only puzzling, but a step back and further burdened his job duties on top of such an already sparse front office. A two person operation with his long time hockey buddy Weisbrod, someone who screwed teams everywhere he went. The smartest men in the room.

 

Thats just on the management side.  He also held grudges for players like Tryamkin who admittedly acted young and foolish when he first came over.  Its like JB took it personal, and so a capable big bodied D which we sorely lacked, was put on hold, and then lowballed so low, that he could make more in Russia than the NHL.

All the way to the other end of the scale to not communicating and respecting long time veterans on the team. Even soft spoken Tanev spoke about how he never heard from Jim.....until he was desperate. Too little too late.  More of the arrogance mixed with ignorance on how to run a hockey franchise.  Myopic describes him well.

 

So happy he's gone. And stoked about not only Boudreau, but Scotty Walker too! We can only go up from here! 

That's a more constructive criticism of Benning than the usual bickering about his record. I've been subtly defending his record as average because that's what i believe. But yeah. It looks like he was running an NHL franchise the way someone would run a junior team. On the end of his finger. 

[Dazzle]

4 hours ago, DSVII said:

I agree with the fact we'll have to wait a few years to see how the core he assembled pans out. But in terms of being a manager/leader of an organization, communication and culture, he's been below average.

 

I think of it this way, if he is an average GM, that means he's by definition better than at least 10-15 other GMs in the league.

 

Which 10 GMs right now would you rank lower than JB?

It really depends on what angle you're looking at. I can name two.

 

Ron Francis and Dubas.

[Eddie]

This is a tricky one to answer without trying to rely on the benefit of hindsight. 

 

I think to start I really liked the core and a lot of the team he has assembled. I loved the team that went a long way in the bubble, i guess time will tell if that was an illusion or the true potential of the core he built. 

 

I didn't hate the 'overpaid' bottom 6 - I liked the idea of building a 'Winning Culture'  Roussel and Beagle were tough, intense little bastards - I'm sure their influence helped to mold any future success the core has. More thank their cap hit the length of those contracts were 2 years too long in retrospect. 

 

I think he did put up a brave fight in the face of bad luck and an empty starting cupboard.

 

He signed a lot of our core to good contracts. 

 

He was a nice guy - clearly did right by a lot of his players, and his coaches when he could and should have made harder decisions. Even tho there might not be a whole lotta room for that at the cutting edge of professional competition - in a world for a a$$holes - you gotta respect him for it. 

 

Onto the not so great : 

 

Drafting - A few years ago, I loved the idea of Benning the scout as GM, when we had the current core + Gaudette, Lind, Gadj, Woo, Madden, Etc. Now looking a what we're left with the record doesn't look great for a GM who's big selling point was he was good at drafting. Missing with 2 top 6 pics is reallly bad for a rebuilding team who never all out tanked for a franchise / generational talent. Failing to draft a  single skater outside of the first round who has currently contributed to our team this year is also bad.  If we had managed to draft a couple of bottom 6 + at least 1 second pair D we would be in a much better place right about now. 

 

Having a Plan - Now this is where 'The Debate' about Aqua, Linden, Benning love triangle comes in. Lack of any cohesive direction across his tenure has ultimately lead us to the sub par roster we have.  I'm not even going to dissect Trades and RFA signing's as the root problem of a lot of the failures that occurred there were rooted in not having a plan that made any freakin sense. 

 

For Example :  Signing Louis - 6 x 6M for a 30 goal scorer who played with our most trusted and beloved Sedin twins who sang his praises. Without the benefit of hindsight -  Was that a bad signing ? No . . . Should we have been signing a player for one last shot at glory at that time - HELL NO.  The Sedins were already falling off, the Kesler trade was a bust,  Horvat was promising but not a franchise player at that time. The D after Eddie and Tanman was diabalocial.  It was just a terrible move for a club in freefall that should have been stock piling picks and weaponizing the cap ( like every other team to do a rebuild in that period). Same goes for Myers, tho at the time the club was in a better place to start pushing the GO button - it was still far from ready, and Myers was a analytics nightmare that was never gonna bring 6M in value. 

 

Then there was the splattering's of wasted draft picks for similar reasons, 2nd for Vey, 3rd thrown in in for Badbrandson, just hemorrhaging picks all over the place - for a Drafting GM - trying to short cut a rebuild. Was it all pressure from Aqua, or Benning being overly bold ? ?  That's the reason we don't have a decent bottom 6 or D core prospects. 

 

The bubble debacle - While that run was the most fun most of us have had watching hockey for a long time, you gotta think of the cost - Losing Marky and Tanev for nothing, the Cost of Toffoli - then the complete 'we ran out of time' $&!# show afterwards jsut made us look like an embarrassment. That was probably 2 x first round picks, one 2nd and a Holby Baker Finalist in Madden ( I think - tho hasn't really made much of himself in LA ) 

 

There is a running theme throughout this that building a winning culture is greater than all - I understood that, and  bought into that at the time, but seeing the team visibly give up on the coach, the fans and each other this year - I'm not sure it worked and we paid a very heavy price to try to attain it.  Tho time may tell - maybe we do come roaring back under BB. 

 

Extending the coaching staff - was the nail in his coffin, and rightfully so. Even on that bubble run you could see Green and Bumgardner getting out coached again and again. So many people on here pointed it out - yet he gave them another 2 years. And then refused to do anything about it - when this season started to tank in all the same ways and the writing was really on the bloody wall.  I know our D aren't exactly top 10 but god dam our D zone coaching has been just terrible this whole time. 

 

Finally Development - As much as drafting our continued ability to develop anything other than goalies is unacceptable. Never seem to be a solid plan  with European players. Utica never seemed to have a strategy and became a black hole for everyone that went there.  

 

Clearly the bad outweighs the good - but how much of that was truly Benning's fault - We may never know.  Likewise - will his legacy also be a core that goes onto greatness - or 1-2 decent pieces that play a part in a bigger retool/build. . . We are still far from knowing that either, but I hope its the case as i really like our core players and would love to see them win together.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[psharpe07]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:14 PM, kanucks25 said:

For the most part, his RFA deals were fine.

 

Which is also one of the easier parts of the job.

You could be right, but I think its debatable whether its easy or not.  Not having a star player in your lineup come training camp becomes a game of chicken sometimes...and personally I think its to Benning's credit that he waited them out for what I feel are team and player friendly deals instead of caving like Dubas.

 

Having said that, this past year with Hughes and Petterson it feels a little like he had to wait them out due to the cap crunch...so you could argue that their deals were sparked by necessity instead of backbone.

[Boudrias]

On 12/7/2021 at 1:40 PM, MaxVerstappen33 said:

 I think Benning wanted to have a say in how the team played. Which is why he went for these AHL coaches. He couldn't micro manage an NHL veteran coach. Just a hunch.

Even Boudreau said he wouldn't rock the boat if a GM insisted on who he played and how. "The GM is my boss and has the power. I do what he says."  Whatever was going on with Benning and Green they seemed to be on the same page. 

[wallstreetamigo]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:14 AM, N4ZZY said:

Benning and Weisbrod didn’t use the rest of the staff? 

 

Ok. So they’re not team players. Good riddance that they’re gone. 

 

That’s not the sort of culture you create or perpetuate with winning, Cup winning organizations. 

 

Out with the unhealthy and toxic culture, and hopefully in with the new.

Been a staple of Weisbrod everywhere he has been. Consolidate power and insulate from dissenting opinions. He is very much a guy who thinks he is the smartest guy in the room.

 

Linden, Brackett, etc. Want to know why they are gone? Their opinions did not match Benning and Weisbrod’s myopic view. Simple as that. It’s why this team needs a strong PoHO and GM. Ones that don’t fear dissenting voices.

[ShawnAntoski]

On 12/7/2021 at 1:19 PM, kilgore said:

I think it became quite clear over the years that Benning was a control freak. And his mild mannered, ah shucks personality masked that.  Not only the AHL coaches.  When anyone threatened his dictatorial methodology, they were soon gone. 

 

A capologist like Gilman to give him grief about over paying on his hunches?  Gone

 

A president like Linden to counter his "this team can be turned around quickly" fantasies?  Gone

 

An amateur scouting director that was outshining him after Benning's only #1 picks he unilaterally insisted on were failing, Virtanen and Joulevi.  He relented to Linden's suggestion to appoint Brackett and we finally had a talented director who promoted Boeser, Petey, and Hughes, among others. Kudos to Jim for agreeing with that amateur scouting dept., but to then fire Judd during such a successful drafting run, was not only puzzling, but a step back and further burdened his job duties on top of such an already sparse front office. A two person operation with his long time hockey buddy Weisbrod, someone who screwed teams everywhere he went. The smartest men in the room.

 

Thats just on the management side.  He also held grudges for players like Tryamkin who admittedly acted young and foolish when he first came over.  Its like JB took it personal, and so a capable big bodied D which we sorely lacked, was put on hold, and then lowballed so low, that he could make more in Russia than the NHL.

All the way to the other end of the scale to not communicating and respecting long time veterans on the team. Even soft spoken Tanev spoke about how he never heard from Jim.....until he was desperate. Too little too late.  More of the arrogance mixed with ignorance on how to run a hockey franchise.  Myopic describes him well.

 

So happy he's gone. And stoked about not only Boudreau, but Scotty Walker too! We can only go up from here! 

Both JB & Green were 'nice guys' and from my experience, nice guys don't make for good leaders cause of there passive aggressive nature but it also depends on the makeup of the team.  Based on there record as the top dog, they seem to be better suited as an assistant rather than the one making the decision.

Edited December 9, 2021 by ShawnAntoski

[iinatcc]

A pretty nice run through of Benning's worst hits