Acquiring a RHD, Cap and Jimmy Rutherford (Discussion/Proposal)

[Ghostsof1915]

@Rick Blight One problem Rick. Whatever we save on Luongo. Virtanen's and Holtby's hits jump to $2.4 million. So we only save a bit over $600,000

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

[Rick Blight]

2 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

@Rick Blight One problem Rick. Whatever we save on Luongo. Virtanen's and Holtby's hits jump to $2.4 million. So we only save a bit over $600,000

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

That is for next season and then it comes down to zero for the season we need money for Bo and J.T. We are only taking a hit of $550K this season and that is why I used that amount as the savings compared to when we had to re-sign Bo/JT.  But it does make it more challenging to sign Brock for next season.

 

 

[hammertime]

If I'm being completely objective. If I'm coming in with zero history or loyalties to this team. First day on the job and this is the first thing I see from my young star player on the tape from last night against Boston. 

 

 

So I ask hey what's up with that. And I hear yaaaaa he does that some times. Whaaaaaat sometimes so you mean this is a regular occurrence then????? Hmmmm.......

 

Not on my team. Not on my Canucks. You wanna pout n feel sorry for yourself do it away from the arena. 

 

IMO you wanna improve the team you either put an end to this behavior from Pete or you try to make a Laine for PLD deal of your own. I would of course prefer the former but if this keeps coming up. 

 

something like

to Buf Pete

to Van Cozens + Zemgus Girgensons 

Or go after Dobbson? Dach? 

 

 

Pouting Pete was an issue last year too. So ya if I'm JR come in here fresh and see this its pretty easy to identify the problem in the room.

 

It certainly isn't Bo/Miller.

 

Re Boeser. I have been going back and forth on trading Boeser for a while now. The more I think about it if you look at cup winning teams I think Brock would do well on all of them STL,CHI,LA,BOS, TB,WA. Then I look at the Canucks and I think to myself maybe the issue is the shape of the hole not the shape of the peg. 

 

I think the Canucks need to be re configured a bit if they are going to be a playoff team, and through that process I expect we will see vast improvement in Brocks play. 

 

Weather or not JR decides that he is worth the money he will command is another story. If it is concluded that he is not then he must be moved. And realistically I don't think we are going to like the return that much. There probably isn't a huge line up to sign a guy 6x6 or 1x7.5 or whatever when he's got 13 points. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by hammertime

[JM_]

1 hour ago, eeeeergh said:

Yeah I definitely think its either Petey, or a lateral move from our prospect pool (Rathbone for a defenseman with less offensive upside, but more size and who can play a shutdown role). 

I'm not advocating to move Petey, just wondering if its a possibility for JR.... if he views Petey as "just" as winger I do wonder what the plans might be. 

 

1 hour ago, eeeeergh said:

I hope our 2022 1st rounder doesnt get traded, our prospect pool is very very shallow..

me too, I'm tired of moving those, and I liked the Miller and OEL/Garland additions. 

[JM_]

33 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

@Rick Blight One problem Rick. Whatever we save on Luongo. Virtanen's and Holtby's hits jump to $2.4 million. So we only save a bit over $600,000

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

we're guaranteed to be in LTIR again next season due to this. Its not the end of the world but in hindsight maybe we should have just kept Holtby. 

[mll]

8 minutes ago, hammertime said:

If I'm being completely objective. If I'm coming in with zero history or loyalties to this team. First day on the job and this is the first thing I see from my young star player on the tape from last night against Boston. 

 

 

So I ask hey what's up with that. And I hear yaaaaa he does that some times. Whaaaaaat sometimes so you mean this is a regular occurrence then????? Hmmmm.......

 

Not on my team. Not on my Canucks. You wanna pout n feel sorry for yourself do it away from the arena. 

 

IMO you wanna improve the team you either put an end to this behavior from Pete or you try to make a Laine for PLD deal of your own. I would of course prefer the former but if this keeps coming up. 

 

something like

to Buf Pete

to Van Cozens + Zemgus Girgensons 

 

Pouting Pete was an issue last year too. So ya if I'm JR come in here fresh and see this its pretty easy to identify the problem in the room.

 

It certainly isn't Bo/Miller.

 

Re Boeser. I have been going back and forth on trading Boeser for a while now. The more I think about it if you look at cup winning teams I think Brock would do well on all of them STL,CHI,LA,BOS, TB,WA. Then I look at the Canucks and I think to myself maybe the issue is the shape of the hole not the shape of the peg. 

 

I think the Canucks need to be re configured a bit if they are going to be a playoff team, and through that process I expect we will see vast improvement in Brocks play. 

 

Weather or not JR decides that he is worth the money he will command is another story. If it is concluded that he is not then he must be moved. And realistically I don't think we are going to like the return that much. There probably isn't a huge line up to sign a guy 6x6 or 1x7.5 or whatever when he's got 13 points. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doubt he's pouting.  More likely feeling like he let his team down by missing his penalty shot.  His confidence is down and probably feels very responsible for the poor start of the team.    

 

Boudreau believes there's a lot of untapped potential in Pettersson and that his confidence is simply low.  They've spoken already several times and he believes they are both on the same page with everything.  Doubt Rutherford would make a trade without talking to his good friend Boudreau.

 

Buffalo is trying to change their culture.  Cozens wants to be in Buffalo.  The Sabres have so much trust to repair with their fanbase.  Trading Cozens just doesn't make sense for them with what they are trying to do.   They've made very strong promises that they are going to change the way they do business and their culture because what they have was broken.

[hammertime]

Just now, JM_ said:

we're guaranteed to be in LTIR again next season due to this. Its not the end of the world but in hindsight maybe we should have just kept Holtby. 

Ya the Holtby thing I never understood. He was a serviceable backup with experience and a cute turtle. Is 1 year of Halak that much of an upgrade that you would take a 2m cap penalty the following year??? Baffling move.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Ya the Holtby thing I never understood. He was a serviceable backup with experience and a cute turtle. Is 1 year of Halak that much of an upgrade that you would take a 2m cap penalty the following year??? Baffling move.

it was a move Benning needed for cash flow for the cap. If he had got the Petey and Hughes deals done earlier maybe he would have avoided it? dunno. 

 

Ferland helps us tho, so it just creates other cap management issues. 

 

I'm not too concerned about our cap structure after next year, it should be pretty good. If OEL-Myers continues to play the way they have even they aren't an overpayment. 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by JM_

[mll]

7 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Ya the Holtby thing I never understood. He was a serviceable backup with experience and a cute turtle. Is 1 year of Halak that much of an upgrade that you would take a 2m cap penalty the following year??? Baffling move.

Holtby 4.3M cap hit  vs  2M for (Halak + Holtby's buyout).  Buying Holtby out gave them an additional 2.3M in cap space for this season.

 

Next season they then have 1.9M for Holtby + 1.25M or 1.5M for Halak's bonuses.    Benning created short term cap space for this season but the Luongo penalty coming off the books will cover part of those deferrals next season.

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by mll

[mll]

4 minutes ago, JM_ said:

it was a move Benning needed for cash flow for the cap. If he had got the Petey and Hughes deals done earlier maybe he would have avoided it? dunno. 

 

Ferland helps us tho, so it just creates other cap management issues. 

 

I'm not too concerned about our cap structure after next year, it should be pretty good. If OEL-Myers continues to play the way they have even they aren't an overpayment. 

 

Ferland doesn't help Vancouver.  He limits their cap space because they can't bank what they aren't using.  It's not an advantage to have an LTIR contract on the books.  They already lost 290K because they couldn't maximise the relief to start the season.  And every day they are forfeiting the cap space that they aren't using as it can't be banked when in LTIR.

 

They have 600K in cap space per CapFriendly.  That daily space is lost while if they didn't have Ferland, their cap space would be 290K higher (ie the relief they've lost) and they would have been able to bank the daily unused 890K for future use.

 

[JM_]

8 minutes ago, mll said:

Ferland doesn't help Vancouver.  He limits their cap space because they can't bank what they aren't using.  It's not an advantage to have an LTIR contract on the books.  They already lost 290K because they couldn't maximise the relief to start the season.  And every day they are forfeiting the cap space that they aren't using as it can't be banked when in LTIR.

 

They have 600K in cap space per CapFriendly.  That daily space is lost while if they didn't have Ferland, their cap space would be 290K higher (ie the relief they've lost) and they would have been able to bank the daily unused 890K for future use.

 

yes but at least you can replace the dead cap with an actual player 

[higgyfan]

Pitts is looking like a desperate team that really wants another chance in the playoffs.  They could be a good trading partner for Miller.  I'm not a fan of trading JT, but he could get a good return.

 

Pitts   JT ($5.25x2)   Hamonic ($1.50) 50%  or  JT + Motte ($1.225) + Burroughs($.750x2)

I prefer the Hamonic move, but I think Pitts would want the Motte/Burroughs deal.

 

Van   Marino RD ($4.4x6yrs)   Blueger C ($2.2x2)

 

There are several contenders that are in need of a top 6 RW.  Brock would probably be an easy trade.

I just don't know about Pete though.  It could be a big mistake moving him right now.

 

I really don't want to see the 1st in a trade.

[Patel Bure]

Myers + 2023 1st for Connor Murphy + 2nd round?

 

I hate to admit it, but our 1st could be in play again to make that happen while using Myers as a sweetener.  

 

Myers + 2023 1st for a youngish 'defensive defenseman' Top 4 RHD that wouldn't look completely out of place as top pairing guy.  

 

Maybe something around Myers + 2023 1st to Chicago for Connor Murphy and a 2nd round pick.  

 

We increase our cap space and fill a more important positional need.  

 

Then, in an independent deal, we move Pearson for a 3rd rounder.  

 

Making these moves should allow us to comfortably re-sign Boeser (2022), Horvat (2023), and Miller (2023) when the time comes.

 

I'm sure there is a better solution to the one that I'm proposing above, but this is the only thing that comes to mind.   

 

 

[komodo0921]

12 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Well, we need a long term solution for a #2 RHD. How does Jimmy Rutherford accomplish this, with our coffer empty, and without loosing momentum?

 

Let's look at this from Rutherford's POV.........

 

#1. Next year,  Brock Boeser (25 in Feb. 2022)  will be negotiating his new contract, with a qualifying offer of $7,500,000 

  

#2 The year after JT Miller (29 in Mar. 2022) will be a UFA and up for contract renewal, he is making $5,250,000 currently

 

#3. The same year Miller is up for renewal, Bo Horvat (27 in April, 2022) is up, and he is a UFA as well, he is making $5,500,000 currently

 

There you have it, one of these 3 will get moved sometime between now the TDL and the draft, Jimmy Rutherford will have to move one of these players to

fit under the cap

 

So let's look at these players, and ask ourselves which one, gets moved? This is what I have come up with.

 

#1. Bo Horvat, our captain, who, for all his warts, is a very consist , second line center, now although his value would be high, with Quinn Hughes signing a 6 year X  $7,850,000, and Pettersson signing a $7,350,000 x 3. I believe his ask would be the lesser than that of Pettersson, even though Pettersson is on a 3 year deal and a RFA. So, I am calling Horvat new contract at around $7,000,000, which is lower than what he would get on the open market. I say he stays.

 

This bring us to the 2 remaining players, Miller, who is arguably our best forward, and Boeser, who is 4 years younger than Miller, and who fits the age of the core better. But this is where it become murky for me, as even with Boeser's qualifying offer being $7,500,000, his extension should be around $7,000,000 X 6, if the Canucks are using an internal cap. Miller how ever, if he maintains his current level of play, will be asking north of $8,000,000, which does not fit our cap in any way. He will also be asking for term ( X6 years) like every other first line leading scorer. I can not see it being any less. 

 

This is where, it circles back to a #2 RHD, and intertwines with either Miller or Boeser, as we will also be trying to fit this #2, under the cap, with the other players, we keep. We are tight, and we are within defined needs.

 

This again is where, it gets hazy for me, as trading Miller for a 25/26 #2 RHD, will be a $5,000,000 to $6,000,000 dollar cost. which really puts us back into a cap crunch. It is with these issues in mind, that it leads me, to think that Rutherford will look to trade our 2022 1st for a player of Cenak's level, which would be a heavy cost, or would trade Miller for a seasoned young RHD (think Dobson or Schneider) or possibly a player like Horonek out of Detroit , who may not be quite what we need. Or go all in on a 2022 draft RHD, such as either Nemec or Jiricek, both of which are a year or 2 a way. ( that has never been Rutherford's style, so I am not convinced that is an option for him.

 

So, what is it? Trade Miller or Boeser? Draft a RHD or trade for a young RHD? They are intertwined, as I said, and now that the real Trader Jim is here, I am confused, and not exactly convinced that any of my arguments hold water?

Please note, that although I put this down as a trade proposal/discussion, it is really a discussion piece, with the understanding that some may offer up a trade idea..............

 

Again, this is not about moving pieces tomorrow, but rather later closer to the TDL or later................

 

Thanks JIAHN

 

Imo, the issue is value.

At 7.5+, are we getting value out of Boeser?

At 8+, Are we getting value out of Miller?

I see issues in both cases.

In Boeser's situation, I see more of a follower who's offense is fed to him by others. He's not the driving force of the line. At the price he'll be asking, I'd be expecting a more complete game with just as much work being done on the defensive side as the offensive. For me, 7.5 is too rich.

Miller poses a different problem. Age. He is the leading scorer of the team but, he will be 29 in March and there's little doubt he'll be looking to cash in on his success for as long as he can get. He may be full marks for his money at the beginning but, as is the case with most players in the twilight of their careers, he will fade and become a burden to the cap. Anything more than 4 yrs, I'd be out.

In either case, unless the numbers come down, I'd rather see them traded.

As for RHD I'd like to see any of Braden Schneider, Ryan O Rourke, Nicolas Meloche, Erik Cernak or, David Jiricek

[Bure_of_94]

5 hours ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

Here's the problem. 

The Canucks have no cap space, so we need to make room. 

Other teams in the league. Half also have no cap room.

The Canucks can't take on salary to get draft picks. 

We can't afford to give up draft picks to get good cheap player and have other teams pick up any underachieving contracts. 

We also don't have a lot on the farm to get good cheap players on our team.

 

The team is kind of boned. In 2023-24 then we get some breathing space. 

 

What would be ideal?

Having young players that can take over for Dickinson/Pearson/Poolman/Hamonic

That would shave $7.4 million 

But you'd have to be comfortable with Juulsen, and perhaps Bowey or Rathbone on Defence.

Klimovich and Lockwood on forward lines. 

Then we pretty much have no depth and only Woo and DiPietro on the farm. 

 

We’re actually in a horrible cap space situation. Our top 6F+top 3D + starting Goalie costs sooo much that  it leaves us with an average of 1.04m/player to fill out bottom6F, bottom3F and a backup. 
 

when nhl minimum wage is 750,000... that’s devastating in terms of depth. 
 

 We’re paying waaay too much for our D and top6.  You can’t have 3 D making 6+.. you can have 2 and 3rd one making 4ish. And looking at other teams, you only want 4 players making above 5 at the most. You gotta then find players under 4 to round out your top 6. 
 

 

 Analyzing what Benning has done, we need 4 Chiassons and 3 Hunts in order to retain everyone we have 

 

Rutherford will have to correct this by dumping at least 1 core player. And 1 other that is making 5-6(Myers seems like the obvious choice). If we don’t, expect to lose 2 of Miller/Horvat/Hoglander in 18 months. And potentially Podkolzin the next year if he develops into a player that is good enough to get paid big. 

[Bure_of_94]

4 hours ago, hammertime said:

If I'm being completely objective. If I'm coming in with zero history or loyalties to this team. First day on the job and this is the first thing I see from my young star player on the tape from last night against Boston. 

 

 

So I ask hey what's up with that. And I hear yaaaaa he does that some times. Whaaaaaat sometimes so you mean this is a regular occurrence then????? Hmmmm.......

 

Not on my team. Not on my Canucks. You wanna pout n feel sorry for yourself do it away from the arena. 

 

IMO you wanna improve the team you either put an end to this behavior from Pete or you try to make a Laine for PLD deal of your own. I would of course prefer the former but if this keeps coming up. 

 

something like

to Buf Pete

to Van Cozens + Zemgus Girgensons 

Or go after Dobbson? Dach? 

 

 

Pouting Pete was an issue last year too. So ya if I'm JR come in here fresh and see this its pretty easy to identify the problem in the room.

 

It certainly isn't Bo/Miller.

 

Re Boeser. I have been going back and forth on trading Boeser for a while now. The more I think about it if you look at cup winning teams I think Brock would do well on all of them STL,CHI,LA,BOS, TB,WA. Then I look at the Canucks and I think to myself maybe the issue is the shape of the hole not the shape of the peg. 

 

I think the Canucks need to be re configured a bit if they are going to be a playoff team, and through that process I expect we will see vast improvement in Brocks play. 

 

Weather or not JR decides that he is worth the money he will command is another story. If it is concluded that he is not then he must be moved. And realistically I don't think we are going to like the return that much. There probably isn't a huge line up to sign a guy 6x6 or 1x7.5 or whatever when he's got 13 points. 

 

 

 

 

 

When Barzal only had 6 points in 16 games we may have been able to get him. But him having something like 9 points in his last 6, slim chance he gets dealt. And if NYI did, they’d probably start at Petey, Rathbone and a couple of firsts to even get them talking. 

[Angry Goose]

Im 100% interested in what JR will do with BB, JM, BH.  Age and contract efficiency are real concerns, but so is the C position.

 

[BPA]

5 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

Myers + 2023 1st for Connor Murphy + 2nd round?

 

I hate to admit it, but our 1st could be in play again to make that happen while using Myers as a sweetener.  

 

Myers + 2023 1st for a youngish 'defensive defenseman' Top 4 RHD that wouldn't look completely out of place as top pairing guy.  

 

Maybe something around Myers + 2023 1st to Chicago for Connor Murphy and a 2nd round pick.  

 

We increase our cap space and fill a more important positional need.  

 

Then, in an independent deal, we move Pearson for a 3rd rounder.  

 

Making these moves should allow us to comfortably re-sign Boeser (2022), Horvat (2023), and Miller (2023) when the time comes.

 

I'm sure there is a better solution to the one that I'm proposing above, but this is the only thing that comes to mind.   

 

 

I'd look to trade Myers also before Boeser, Miller or Bo.

 

Just don't think Myers is worth $6M if the best he's going to be is a Defensive Dman.

 

But Canucks have a bit of time to work the cap.  Think they can get Motte around $2M x 3yr+.  And Boeser around $7M × 6yr+.

 

It's the year after that Hogz, Miller, and Bo need new contracts.  Small bump in the cap would help.  And buyouts should be gone (I think).

[Alflives]

We already have Myers, Poolman, Hamonic, and Myers.  Only a complete moron would want to get another RSD.  

[J.I.A.H.N]

8 hours ago, JM_ said:

Hey J - Rutherford told the Province that he's looking to add futures to the club, not move any out. So based on that, I'd assume Brock is staying put since he's still relatively young and under team control. 

 

Bo is just too useful, the C, and also still just 27. I guess its conceivable he's moved but that seems like a last resort thing to me. My. guess is they work hard on an extension for him.

 

So that leaves Mr. Miller. I have no doubt we can get a 20-32 pick and a mid-round for him and basically recover what we coughed up for him. But to me thats selling low, he's shown he's better now than when Tampa moved him.

 

It seems to always swing back to Dobson for me. Can we put the two oldest GMs together and see what shakes out? Is Miller worth Dobson?

 

___

 

I guess the other possibility is, and I hate to say it, move Petey?

 

 

 

 

I can't say that did not cross my mind...........but over all, I am kind of with you on every point................

 

Just too hard to have our cake and eat it too!