Junkyard Dog Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, NUCKER67 said: So, looking into the future, what players are still on this team in 2 years? (to start the 2023/24 season) Horvat Pettersson Garland Motte Podkolzin OEL Myers Hughes Demko my guess By then possibly also add Klimovich, Lockwood, Rathbone and Woo My guess as well but have to account for whomever we draft, trade for or sign in that time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: We gain assets for Miller/Boeser that we use to build the roster. We don't lose more by letting him go. Also good chance he probably walks unless you pay him 8M+ long-term We are not keeping Horvat, Miller and Boeser taking up 21M+ in cap while fixing the holes on the roster. We're literally the same team but worse if we keep everyone since we'll have to downgrade on the guys we're getting rid of you mentioned.. I know you like the players but this isn't plausible. Its not just that I like them, I just dont think they're as replaceable as people think.. nor do I think its a stretch at all to keep them as part of the core that contends in 2-3 years. I guess we'll see if JT gets 8m, but again I think its likely he gets no more than 7. Bo probably gets around 7. Boeser gets 7.5. Those are pretty modest increases to what they currently earn (2.5m raise for miller, 1.5 for Bo, 1.5 for Boes). 5.5m total. Myers, Poolman, Pearson, Dickinson, Hamonic. 18m between them. Leaves 12.5m for upgrades on defense, plus whatever else we get from a salary cap increase. Its not that easy to replace someone like Miller with a young player. Its pretty unlikely we draft someone next year and in 2 years they're ready to provide what Miller does at this stage. Its easier to fill out 3rd and 4th line positions, or the bottom defensive pairing with young players on ELC's and take those cost savings and apply them to keeping guys like Miller. Edited December 14, 2021 by eeeeergh 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 One of the things I liked most about Rutherford's presser was the statement that we might be only a couple of trades away from being a contender, or a couple of trades away from disaster. Coming from a gunslinger like him, that's very level-headed and suggests he won't do anything rash just to do something. It's pretty clear that he knows he's working under a different mandate here than in Pittsburgh. This should alleviate some of the concerns that people have been kicking around here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 I'm guessing that Brock is good as gone simply because he is one of the worst skaters on our team but has some of the highest value. Petey and the boys will be crushed, and so will the fans. I sure hope JR doesn't mess this up. I will say, I've been worried since the hire, but today's PC put me more at ease. But, I'll say it again: I still sure hope he doesn't mess it up, ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
singing chef Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 hour ago, DeNiro said: I hope he doesn’t simply trade for players he had in Pittsburgh. That doesn’t give us our own identity. If we’re trading Boeser it needs to be for a high end top 4 defenseman. Getting two average pieces does us no good. I agree with you DeNiro; what I was suggesting is that with his knowledge of Pittsburgh roster and his statement that the team isn't fast, it occurred to me that Kapanen might be a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, singing chef said: I agree with you DeNiro; what I was suggesting is that with his knowledge of Pittsburgh roster and his statement that the team isn't fast, it occurred to me that Kapanen might be a target. Pearson for Kapanen? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 55 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said: If Rutherford wants the team to be faster, I guess Pearson's days are numbered. Maybe Schenn too, although I hope they keep him, even in Abby as a callup. He also said, you can't just have one type of guys when justifying Johnson and Gudbranson acquisition. I think if Boudreau likes Schenn, Schenn stays. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 9 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: Its not just that I like them, I just dont think they're as replaceable as people think.. nor do I think its a stretch at all to keep them as part of the core that contends in 2-3 years. I guess we'll see if JT gets 8m, but again I think its likely he gets no more than 7. Bo probably gets around 7. Boeser gets 7.5. Those are pretty modest increases to what they currently earn (2.5m raise for miller, 1.5 for Bo, 1.5 for Boes). 5.5m total. Myers, Poolman, Pearson, Dickinson, Hamonic. 18m between them. Leaves 12.5m for upgrades on defense, plus whatever else we get from a salary cap increase. Its not that easy to replace someone like Miller with a young player. Its pretty unlikely we draft someone next year and in 2 years they're ready to provide what Miller does at this stage. Its easier to fill out 3rd and 4th line positions, or the bottom defensive pairing with young players on ELC's and take those cost savings and apply them to keeping guys like Miller. So we will have the same type of team but worse since Hog and Pod will need contracts. We will just continue to get worse since we will have too much money tied up in the forwards we have now. We won't be able to build the rest of the roster. Miller 8M+ Horvat 7M+ Boeser 7.5M Petey 7.35M Garland 4.95M Hog/Pod??? Hughes 7.85M OEL 7.26 Demko 5M That's 55M+ without accounting for Pod/Hog which would probably be minimum 62.5M+ in 7 forwards 2 D and 1G. Petey will need a raise the same year Pod does too. You're not getting 2 good top 4 RD, a backup G, an entire bottom 6 and 3rd pair for 20ish million in cap. You're gonna be downgrading on a lot of players we are getting rid of. You're also not getting rid of all those players. Not without giving up something for a few. Doesn't account for the fact that Miller could walk easy. Rutherford wants younger players and to reshape the roster. Why risk letting Miller walk or paying him 8M+into his 30s when we can use that cap elsewhere while getting the youngsters rutherford wants. Cernak/Severson UFAs same year Miller is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Alflives said: Pearson for Kapanen? Good luck 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Durst Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 55 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said: If Rutherford wants the team to be faster, I guess Pearson's days are numbered. Maybe Schenn too, although I hope they keep him, even in Abby as a callup. faster or quicker - both equally good. Even if you don't have fast players on the team you can still play a quick game by moving / passing the puck really quick. He also mentioned that he was impressed how well the Canucks team handled one of the fastest teams in the league, the Canes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 11 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: Its not just that I like them, I just dont think they're as replaceable as people think.. nor do I think its a stretch at all to keep them as part of the core that contends in 2-3 years. I guess we'll see if JT gets 8m, but again I think its likely he gets no more than 7. Bo probably gets around 7. Boeser gets 7.5. Those are pretty modest increases to what they currently earn (2.5m raise for miller, 1.5 for Bo, 1.5 for Boes). 5.5m total. Myers, Poolman, Pearson, Dickinson, Hamonic. 18m between them. Leaves 12.5m for upgrades on defense, plus whatever else we get from a salary cap increase. Its not that easy to replace someone like Miller with a young player. Its pretty unlikely we draft someone next year and in 2 years they're ready to provide what Miller does at this stage. Its easier to fill out 3rd and 4th line positions, or the bottom defensive pairing with young players on ELC's and take those cost savings and apply them to keeping guys like Miller. Yeah, I think Miller would be hugely difficult to replace. Bo also, and Boesser a bit less. With Miller, they're going to have to assess the pro's and con's of his effect on other players, how willing he is to re-sign, as well as what they could get in return. If they retain salary, it should be a haul. It doesn't bother me that he's older than the rest of the core, though. Contending teams have older players in the mix. And there's no doubt that he's the team's emotional leader, even if you get the bad with the good in that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfgang Durst Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said: Good luck you are right man, this ain't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyCupOneDay Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 My 3 biggest concerns were addressed. He says he won’t be going for a rebuild. He says he won’t make any trades until our team is properly assessed under good coaching. He says he won’t limit his search for GM to a certain type or one he has a personal connection with. That said, we will see if these end up being true. If for instance we hire Bergevin or Botterril or god forbid someone worse than those two I will not be supportive of Rutherford. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Maniwaki Canuck said: Yeah, I think Miller would be hugely difficult to replace. Bo also, and Boesser a bit less. With Miller, they're going to have to assess the pro's and con's of his effect on other players, how willing he is to re-sign, as well as what they could get in return. If they retain salary, it should be a haul. It doesn't bother me that he's older than the rest of the core, though. Contending teams have older players in the mix. And there's no doubt that he's the team's emotional leader, even if you get the bad with the good in that. Can't keep them all unfortunately if we are reshaping the roster. Also have to consider the fact that Miller in free agency is gonna get paid big time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 1 minute ago, StanleyCupOneDay said: My 3 biggest concerns were addressed. He says he won’t be going for a rebuild. He says he won’t make any trades until our team is properly assessed under good coaching. He says he won’t limit his search for GM to a certain type or one he has a personal connection with. That said, we will see if these end up being true. If for instance we hire Bergevin or Botterril or god forbid someone worse than those two I will not be supportive of Rutherford. Sounds like he wants to get one of his personal guys as AGM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: So we will have the same type of team but worse since Hog and Pod will need contracts. We will just continue to get worse since we will have too much money tied up in the forwards we have now. We won't be able to build the rest of the roster. Miller 8M+ Horvat 7M+ Boeser 7.5M Petey 7.35M Garland 4.95M Hog/Pod??? Hughes 7.85M OEL 7.26 Demko 5M That's 55M+ without accounting for Pod/Hog which would probably be minimum 62.5M+ in 7 forwards 2 D and 1G. Petey will need a raise the same year Pod does too. You're not getting 2 good top 4 RD, a backup G, an entire bottom 6 and 3rd pair for 20ish million in cap. You're gonna be downgrading on a lot of players we are getting rid of. You're also not getting rid of all those players. Not without giving up something for a few. Doesn't account for the fact that Miller could walk easy. Rutherford wants younger players and to reshape the roster. Why risk letting Miller walk or paying him 8M+into his 30s when we can use that cap elsewhere while getting the youngsters rutherford wants. Cernak/Severson UFAs same year Miller is. If you lose Miller or Horvat, you need to find a way of accomplishing what they contribute for less money - my point is I dont think thats possible. You're not going to get a player come in on an ELC and score 30-40 goals unless you're drafting in the top 5 (and even then, they're going to need a few years to develop if you want them to contribute everything that a Miller or Horvat brings to the table, by which time they need a big contract anyway). So letting them walk truly accomplishes nothing - you have to go spend money elsewhere. Its a lot easier to fill those bottom 6 and bottom pairing roles with young guys on ELCs, those are the people that we drafted last year, that we'll draft this year, and draft next year. OEL and Hughes dont need top-4 defenseman that can do everything, they can work well with defensive specialists. A Savard type comes in around 3.5-4m. 7-8m for your 2x RD 3m for your bottom pair (assuming 1 is an ELC like Woo, another is a Benn type) 5m for your third line (A Dickinson type salary + a Sutter type + an ELC) 3-4m for your fourth line ELC for your backup goalie (assuming they're going to run with DiPietro) That seems far more doable than jettisoning someone like Horvat and hoping a draft pick can step in at 19-20 years old and provide everything he does but on an ELC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 Coach Gaby has Dickinson playing wing again as he did mostly in Dallas. His game is improving under coach Gaby. I think he's worth keeping for atheist rest of season to see how he does under new coach. JR will make trades and he'll look for players with a bit of speed, fast pace and heavy playing style. I'm OK with anyone getting traded. As long as the return is good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eeeeergh Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 20 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said: So we will have the same type of team but worse since Hog and Pod will need contracts. We will just continue to get worse since we will have too much money tied up in the forwards we have now. We won't be able to build the rest of the roster. Miller 8M+ Horvat 7M+ Boeser 7.5M Petey 7.35M Garland 4.95M Hog/Pod??? Hughes 7.85M OEL 7.26 Demko 5M That's 55M+ without accounting for Pod/Hog which would probably be minimum 62.5M+ in 7 forwards 2 D and 1G. Petey will need a raise the same year Pod does too. You're not getting 2 good top 4 RD, a backup G, an entire bottom 6 and 3rd pair for 20ish million in cap. You're gonna be downgrading on a lot of players we are getting rid of. You're also not getting rid of all those players. Not without giving up something for a few. Doesn't account for the fact that Miller could walk easy. Rutherford wants younger players and to reshape the roster. Why risk letting Miller walk or paying him 8M+into his 30s when we can use that cap elsewhere while getting the youngsters rutherford wants. Cernak/Severson UFAs same year Miller is. Last thing to add too - Tampa has 68m tied up in 10 players.. Makes 55m tied up in 10 players sound very doable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 (edited) 20 minutes ago, eeeeergh said: If you lose Miller or Horvat, you need to find a way of accomplishing what they contribute for less money - my point is I dont think thats possible. You're not going to get a player come in on an ELC and score 30-40 goals unless you're drafting in the top 5 (and even then, they're going to need a few years to develop if you want them to contribute everything that a Miller or Horvat brings to the table, by which time they need a big contract anyway). So letting them walk truly accomplishes nothing - you have to go spend money elsewhere. Its a lot easier to fill those bottom 6 and bottom pairing roles with young guys on ELCs, those are the people that we drafted last year, that we'll draft this year, and draft next year. OEL and Hughes dont need top-4 defenseman that can do everything, they can work well with defensive specialists. A Savard type comes in around 3.5-4m. 7-8m for your 2x RD 3m for your bottom pair (assuming 1 is an ELC like Woo, another is a Benn type) 5m for your third line (A Dickinson type salary + a Sutter type + an ELC) 3-4m for your fourth line ELC for your backup goalie (assuming they're going to run with DiPietro) That seems far more doable than jettisoning someone like Horvat and hoping a draft pick can step in at 19-20 years old and provide everything he does but on an ELC. Well without Miller we probably drafting top 15 next couple seasons as we clear cap. These next 2 drafts are deep. We also will acquire future pieces for Miller. We also will have cap space. We also have Garland at a cheaper more friendly contract. Lots of options. Miller 30 years old 8M+ long-term doesn't seem ideal especially when you consider those ELCs will expire on those youngsters. Then you're hooped. Rutherford is fine with the team developing into a long-term contender he stated as such. Like I said you're not trading all those players for assets. Myers and Poolman will likely cost us something significant to get rid of. Team has holes on the roster. Team has had a Tanev type and only made the playoffs by luck. We'll need better if we want to become a contender. Still downgrading on everybody we are replacing. we're a worse team still. Everyone's getting raises while we're getting rid of guys we couldn't have long-term success with and downgrading on them. I say keep Horvat and get rid of Miller and Boeser. We'll have 5/9 top 9 forwards still without having 16M+ in Miller and Boeser. 16M+ can be used for better defenseman and a 3rd C. Edited December 14, 2021 by Junkyard Dog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlakeQuinnAndEggs Posted December 14, 2021 Share Posted December 14, 2021 We can hmm and haw about who's staying or who's going or who the GM will be, but JR said it himself, he needs til the end of January to assess. So i wonder if anything besides hiring an Assistant GM will happen in the meantime.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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