Benning ~ Not all bad (Discussion)

[Dazzle]

17 hours ago, Gally said:

"Some"

 

Was there one time he did cash in on an asset instead of letting them walk or re-signing them to a deal that ended up being an overpayment? 

 

The guy was here 8 years and we had almost no success, saying that 5 wins in a row with the league's best goaltending means it was Green's fault is ludicrous. This team still has many flaws but should be better than we were at the start.

You are wilfully forgetting that Green's teams had NEVER played the style that Boudreau has employed. You're also forgetting that Green's second periods have traditionally been poor. All the momentum in the first period usually goes to die here. Something was funky about how Green coached.

Moreover, Green has repetitively employed the same tactics, namely the dump and chase, over a course of five seasons. We can see that he's been VERY ineffective. Now, with a new coach, we see a vastly improved team.

 

But of course, it's not Green's fault at all, right?

 

All this blame on Benning for 8 years, but not a shred of blame for Green for his COACHING of five years. No bias there at all, right? LOL.

[Warhippy]

13 hours ago, DSVII said:

10 times out of 10. I will take a GM who knows how to manage assets over a GM that can just draft. 

 

Demko I give credit. But Jim's picks that he picked up were so high in the 1st round any of us with a hockey news mag could hit 50% of the time  

Oh?

 

Ask Edmonton, Florida (until this year), Arizona, Buffalo, Columbus, Ottawa over the last decade about that

[Baggins]

5 hours ago, N4ZZY said:

Have to wonder about that don’t you? I think there is some truth to the fact that the players did not like Benning. 

 

He communicated poorly. He could have constructed a far stronger team, but did not use his assets very well. Should have traded Tanev, Markström, even Edler to a degree for some prospects/picks coming back. It’s very possible that we have a better backend with some of those players above traded for some youngish defensemen, which we do not necessarily have right now. 

 

I think the way Benning handled some of the players that left via free agency left a sour taste in some of the existing player’s mouth.

 

 

 

The only valuable players that walked were after making the playoffs or used their NTC to restrict/kill being moved. It happens to every team/GM and it's where all those UFA's come from every summer. Imagine this as a player - you bust your butt all season to make the playoffs. Then at the trade deadline, in a playoff spot, the GM trades your MVP goalie and best defensive d-man. You go on to miss the playoffs. What kind of message does that send to the team when the GM has said repeatedly, "our goal is to make the playoffs every year"? Would a guy like Bo have any trust in the GM and still want to stay?

[hammertime]

33 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Letting Markstrom, Tanev, Toffoli and Edler walk for free is just crazy, and he should have moved heaven and earth to obtain assets, for them if we could not afford them

 

How? They *made* the playoffs and went on a bit of a run. I remember enjoying that bit. I don't think there was ever much to be done about losing them and re signing them was out of the question. Toffoli woulda been nice. Even if JB hadn't signed Virtanen I don't know that he could have. It's moot now that we have Connor #%$@ing Garland.

 

I wish he'd

Never signed Virt

Kept Gadjo over Chia.

Forsling for Clendenning but seriously who cares. I like Lockwood

Tim Schaller

Sutter was too expensive but he had a huge part in developing Bo. 

Beags and Rooster over paid but they did stuff like successfully kill penalties under Green and Baumer.

 

Then there's Loui. I think I'm gonna hang that one on Aqua.  

 

 

So when the dust settled none of the above are really that egregious. JB did a lot of good work building a solid foundation. He was never going to be the guy to put the finishing touches that much was clear years ago. He had great character and was loyal to a fault. I think he and his family are owed an apology from the fans and media of the Canucks who were completely de humanizing and ruthless to him. 

[N4ZZY]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

The only valuable players that walked were after making the playoffs or used their NTC to restrict/kill being moved. It happens to every team/GM and it's where all those UFA's come from every summer. Imagine this as a player - you bust your butt all season to make the playoffs. Then at the trade deadline, in a playoff spot, the GM trades your MVP goalie and best defensive d-man. You go on to miss the playoffs. What kind of message does that send to the team when the GM has said repeatedly, "our goal is to make the playoffs every year"? Would a guy like Bo have any trust in the GM and still want to stay?

Yea, I get that. But if Demko was going to be the eventual starter, then he should’ve been given the reigns at that time, or even before the postseason. If Markström wasn’t going to be in the long term plans, then the team should have traded him and gotten assets back. They had to make a choice and they went with Demko moving forward and let Markström walk into free agency. If that was the plan all along, then why didn’t they just roll with Demko, and traded Markström for assets in return, well, before the playoffs? Demko needed the games, and he needed experience, he would’ve (in hindsight) gotten to where he was faster and earlier. It could’ve been his coming out party to be fair. But instead they rolled with Markström and then allowed him to walk without getting anything in return. That’s just bad asset management, and Benning and co never really had a coherent plan moving forward, it was all “day to day” 

[IBatch]

Every single player,  now that Edler is gone, is from a trade, pick or in Horvats case developed (and the right way 100%), by Jim Benning.   Let's just look at his picks and the ones who were traded because of his picks, by age.

 

1.  OEL.  

2.  Miller

3.  Horvat

4.  Garland

5.  Demko

6.  Brock Boeser

7.  EP

8.  QHs

9.  Hogs

10. Podz

 

That is our existing core as of right now aside from Myers.   So one UFA.   10 out of 19 starting players.   It's hard to find that anywhere else in the league, and aside from Poile...who else has their entire roster picked, traded and signed by one GM?  Hard to find isn't it.  Probably missing some too.   We aren't in terrible shape.    Wonder how far the "Bruce" will take us?    All the way i hope.   This is hockey, and you just never know.   

[hammertime]

2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

You are wilfully forgetting that Green's teams had NEVER played the style that Boudreau has employed. You're also forgetting that Green's second periods have traditionally been poor. All the momentum in the first period usually goes to die here. Something was funky about how Green coached.

Moreover, Green has repetitively employed the same tactics, namely the dump and chase, over a course of five seasons. We can see that he's been VERY ineffective. Now, with a new coach, we see a vastly improved team.

 

But of course, it's not Green's fault at all, right?

 

All this blame on Benning for 8 years, but not a shred of blame for Green for his COACHING of five years. No bias there at all, right? LOL.

You are willfully forgetting that this team hasn't lost yet under Boudreau. Maybe reserve judgement until things settle back to earth. 

 

The synical Canucks fan in me says if we zoom out this nice lil run they are on right now is another wonderful moral victory to worsen our draft position. The season is likely lost. Look at the roster and be realistic Miller, Myers, Bo, Pod is simply not enough sandpaper to make some noise in the postseason. 

 

The Dreamer in me hopes that they can keep this ball rolling. The problems with the team are fixable. The Canucks IMO are only a couple of 3rd liners and a Shutdown LD away from actually being a good team. Not impossible moves to make. My targets....

 

Tanner Jeannot Bottom 6 w can put up points and beat the crap out of Luke Schenn.

Michael Macleod Excellent on faceoffs and PK, right shot C

Jonas Siegenthaler Big Shutdown LD

 

These guy's shouldn't cost us the moon. Just have to find a taker for Pearson + Hammonic that will probably be harder but not impossible. 

 

Miller Bo Boeser

Garland Pete Pod

Jeannot Macleod Hoglander

Dicky Sutter? Motte

 

Hughes Schenn

OEL Myers

Siegenthaler Poolman

 

They aren't terribly far away from being a team that can challenge for post season glory the real question is...... Is this the season to push? Or are they far better off long term with a top 10 pick this year and trying to come back next season and take a real run at it.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by hammertime

[Baggins]

Just now, N4ZZY said:

Yea, I get that. But if Demko was going to be the eventual starter, then he should’ve been given the reigns at that time, or even before the postseason. If Markström wasn’t going to be in the long term plans, then the team should have traded him and gotten assets back. They had to make a choice and they went with Demko moving forward and let Markström walk into free agency. If that was the plan all along, then why didn’t they just roll with Demko, and traded Markström for assets in return, well, before the playoffs? Demko needed the games, and he needed experience, he would’ve (in hindsight) gotten to where he was faster and earlier. It could’ve been his coming out party to be fair. But instead they rolled with Markström and then allowed him to walk without getting anything in return. That’s just bad asset management, and Benning and co never really had a coherent plan moving forward, it was all “day to day” 

Demko was rather mediocre that season (.905 S% 3.06 GAA) while Marky was widely regarded our MVP. It was Demko's performance in the playoffs that really boosted his status and value. Trading Marky at the deadline would have sent the message "we are giving up the playoffs". Again, teams lose players to free agency when making the playoffs. The Canucks are not immune to that. Had it not been for Demko's playoff performance it wouldn't have surprised if Marky was re-signed and Demko traded. We could only protect one from the expansion draft. I am glad it turned out the way it did. Demko is 5 years younger and has really proven himself.

[Gally]

2 hours ago, Dazzle said:

You are wilfully forgetting that Green's teams had NEVER played the style that Boudreau has employed. You're also forgetting that Green's second periods have traditionally been poor. All the momentum in the first period usually goes to die here. Something was funky about how Green coached.

Moreover, Green has repetitively employed the same tactics, namely the dump and chase, over a course of five seasons. We can see that he's been VERY ineffective. Now, with a new coach, we see a vastly improved team.

 

But of course, it's not Green's fault at all, right?

 

All this blame on Benning for 8 years, but not a shred of blame for Green for his COACHING of five years. No bias there at all, right? LOL.

Green doesn't choose the players who are on the ice. I'm not even a Travis Green fan I think especially this season he was a part of the issue since the players clearly weren't all in. Keep defending the bumbling idiot who got fired last week after one of the longest and least successful tenures in Canucks history though. 

[Baggins]

5 minutes ago, hammertime said:

You are willfully forgetting that this team hasn't lost yet under Boudreau. Maybe reserve judgement until things settle back to earth. 

 

The synical Canucks fan in me says if we zoom out this nice lil run they are on right now is another wonderful moral victory to worsen our draft position. The season is likely lost. Look at the roster and be realistic Miller, Myers, Bo, Pod is simply not enough sandpaper to make some noise in the postseason. 

 

The Dreamer in me hopes that they can keep this ball rolling. The problems with the team are fixable. The Canucks IMO are only a couple of 3rd liners and a Shutdown LD away from actually being a good team. Not impossible moves to make. My targets....

 

Tanner Jeannot Bottom 6 w can put up points and beat the crap out of Luke Schenn.

Michael Macleod Excellent on faceoffs and PK 

Jonas Siegenthaler Big Shutdown LD

 

These guy's shouldn't cost us the moon. Just have to find a taker for Pearson + Hammonic that will probably be harder but not impossible. 

 

Miller Bo Boeser

Garland Pete Pod

Jeannot Macleod Hoglander

Dicky Sutter? Motte

 

Hughes Schenn

OEL Myers

Siegenthaler Poolman

 

They aren't terribly far away from being a team that can challenge for post season glory the real question is...... Is this the season to push? Or are they far better off long term with a top 10 pick this year and trying to come back next season and take a real run at it.

 

 

 

 

Coming out of a rebuild isn't about "making noise" in the playoffs. It's about making the playoffs and gaining experience. Every season is the season to push for the playoffs as far as I'm concerned. Look no further than comments from Petey and Bo about being tired of losing and their desire to make the playoffs. 

[kanucks25]

9 hours ago, Honky Cat said:

Do you seriously think that this affected their on ice performance ?

You don't think the competency level of employers, how they treat their employees, how much faith employees have in their employers, etc. has any effect on employee performance?

 

This is all walks of life, not just hockey.

 

Come on now.

 

The players' reactions and comments from last summer told you all you needed to know. And if you didn't get it then, the relief and happiness they are showing right now says it all.

[hammertime]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Oh?

 

Ask Edmonton, Florida (until this year), Arizona, Buffalo, Columbus, Ottawa over the last decade about that

This is an interesting phenom to me. I think a lot of teams out smart themselves. Jim wasn't smart enough to out smart himself. 

 

If you refer to just your average rankings. 

 

Quinn, Pod, Nils all fell to JB and he had "the right amount" of smarts to draft them. 

 

When the waters get murkier he still batts pretty well. 

Strikes Virtanen, McCann, Olli

Hits Brock, Elias, Demko

 

All this being said if you consider JB one of the better drafting GM's in the league. I do. Also consider that 75% of the league GM's aren't drafting any better than sayyyyyy a teenager with a hockey news mag to use @DSVII's analogy. 

[Warhippy]

51 minutes ago, hammertime said:

You are willfully forgetting that this team hasn't lost yet under Boudreau. Maybe reserve judgement until things settle back to earth. 

 

The synical Canucks fan in me says if we zoom out this nice lil run they are on right now is another wonderful moral victory to worsen our draft position. The season is likely lost. Look at the roster and be realistic Miller, Myers, Bo, Pod is simply not enough sandpaper to make some noise in the postseason. 

 

The Dreamer in me hopes that they can keep this ball rolling. The problems with the team are fixable. The Canucks IMO are only a couple of 3rd liners and a Shutdown LD away from actually being a good team. Not impossible moves to make. My targets....

 

Tanner Jeannot Bottom 6 w can put up points and beat the crap out of Luke Schenn.

Michael Macleod Excellent on faceoffs and PK, right shot C

Jonas Siegenthaler Big Shutdown LD

 

These guy's shouldn't cost us the moon. Just have to find a taker for Pearson + Hammonic that will probably be harder but not impossible. 

 

Miller Bo Boeser

Garland Pete Pod

Jeannot Macleod Hoglander

Dicky Sutter? Motte

 

Hughes Schenn

OEL Myers

Siegenthaler Poolman

 

They aren't terribly far away from being a team that can challenge for post season glory the real question is...... Is this the season to push? Or are they far better off long term with a top 10 pick this year and trying to come back next season and take a real run at it.

 

 

 

 

Just curious as to how this team looks if Sutter comes back healthy after the new year to centre the 4th line.

[kanucks25]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

otherwise what UFA would want to play for us?  

The ones we grossly overpay.

[Warhippy]

4 minutes ago, hammertime said:

This is an interesting phenom to me. I think a lot of teams out smart themselves. Jim wasn't smart enough to out smart himself. 

 

If you refer to just your average rankings. 

 

Quinn, Pod, Nils all fell to JB and he had "the right amount" of smarts to draft them. 

 

When the waters get murkier he still batts pretty well. 

Strikes Virtanen, McCann, Olli

Hits Brock, Elias, Demko

 

All this being said if you consider JB one of the better drafting GM's in the league. I do. Also consider that 75% of the league GM's aren't drafting any better than sayyyyyy a teenager with a hockey news mag to use @DSVII's analogy. 

It really is interesting.  Whether it was luck or skill he did quite well.

 

If we look at teams that rebuilt over an 8 year term (Benning's timeline) that had essentially a decade of suck it's remarkable how well Benning did without ever drafting in the top 3 and without ever truly supplementing himself or the team with extra picks.

 

I present teams since the big lockout that drafted in or around the top 10 for almost a decade or so consistently.  When you look at how long it took them to regain respectability it's actually interesting to see in this arguments context.

 

Toronto 2008-2016:  https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008490.html

 

Edmonton:  2008-2019 (yes really they still drafted top 10 a few times post McJesus) https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005632.html

 

Carolina: 2010-2018 (full disclosure, was a higher drafter than some on the list) https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005154.html

 

Columbus:  We can go back to their 2000 draft because they seem to draft top 10+ every other year 2000 present https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005316.html

 

Arizona:  Much like CBJ, more than a decade drafting top 10 ish 2004-Present https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007450.html

 

Florida:  2001-2017 https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005763.html

 

Islanders:  2006-2015 https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007085.html

 

Senators:  2009-present https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00007328.html

 

Sabres:  2013-present https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00005054.html (this is just awful)

 

Canucks:  2014-present https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/teams/dr00008756.html

 

When we look at these lists, the Canucks stand out in their decade as being above the pack for nhl players drafted outside of the top 10 with almost every team having duds picked within that top 10.  For what Benning did wrong, he certainly never had the luck some fo these teams had in winning lotteries, drafting higher than 5th or failing outside of the top 10 because there are some absolute dogs amongst those teams.  This is essentially 1/3rd of the entire league that drafted top 10 or better over a decade or so or more in some cases.

 

For Bennings failures in retaining talent, letting assets go for nothing and for not utilizing those assets to recoup picks; he did quite well drafting players that have actually played more than 150+ games than almost any team on that list

[Boudrias]

22 minutes ago, hammertime said:

This is an interesting phenom to me. I think a lot of teams out smart themselves. Jim wasn't smart enough to out smart himself. 

 

If you refer to just your average rankings. 

 

Quinn, Pod, Nils all fell to JB and he had "the right amount" of smarts to draft them. 

 

When the waters get murkier he still batts pretty well. 

Strikes Virtanen, McCann, Olli

Hits Brock, Elias, Demko

 

All this being said if you consider JB one of the better drafting GM's in the league. I do. Also consider that 75% of the league GM's aren't drafting any better than sayyyyyy a teenager with a hockey news mag to use @DSVII's analogy. 

McCann is a pretty decent NHL player.

[IBatch]

13 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Demko was rather mediocre that season (.905 S% 3.06 GAA) while Marky was widely regarded our MVP. It was Demko's performance in the playoffs that really boosted his status and value. Trading Marky at the deadline would have sent the message "we are giving up the playoffs". Again, teams lose players to free agency when making the playoffs. The Canucks are not immune to that. Had it not been for Demko's playoff performance it wouldn't have surprised if Marky was re-signed and Demko traded. We could only protect one from the expansion draft. I am glad it turned out the way it did. Demko is 5 years younger and has really proven himself.

Covid.  It's the main metric in that phase of our teams history.   Absolutely no way JB could have it any other GM for that matter predicted that was coming.   It's an absolute freaking miracle we got that OEL/Garland trade done.   Probably will end up one of the better trades the last ten years for our club.   JB knew his team needed cap relief ... to sign Tanev and Markstrom, on the CDC we'd been talking about it all year long.   TT a what a sideshow that became, like we'd keep him over Brock Boeser - but a lot wanted too, and trade our first for Dumba and Brock too lol.    Rutherford is a breath of fresh air.   Luongo, LE ... a ton of cap sitting on the sidelines... really really hope going forward, the next GM doesn't spend to the cap and leaves some wiggle room no matter what.    The cap going up would have solved some of these issues.   It didn't.  And won't more then 1 until the owners are paid back.   Already TO and OTT are mandated 50% capacity (not that it would make much difference in OTT really).   More to come.    This won't get easier, and those stupid contracts GMs signed this summer ... thankfully JB didn't do that again. 

[hammertime]

12 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

McCann is a pretty decent NHL player.

24th OA McCann is a weenie. Is he the 3c piece this team is missing????? I don't think so. but I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to pick 25 in 2014 erm you know the guy JB's former team and cohort of scouts drafted. You'd think Pasta would have to be on JB's radar given the circumstances. Hindsight's a biotch. 

 

But dwelling on whiffing on a 24oa pick is meh.

 

IMO JB's legacy will reflect just how wrong and borderline abusive the fans and media were to him in this city. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by hammertime

[PhillipBlunt]

While Benning had clearly worn out his welcome as GM, I would have been fine with him staying on as a scout. Highly doubt someone who was both a GM and a AGM would want to take such a demotion though. 

[spook007]

1 hour ago, hammertime said:

You are willfully forgetting that this team hasn't lost yet under Boudreau. Maybe reserve judgement until things settle back to earth. 

 

The synical Canucks fan in me says if we zoom out this nice lil run they are on right now is another wonderful moral victory to worsen our draft position. The season is likely lost. Look at the roster and be realistic Miller, Myers, Bo, Pod is simply not enough sandpaper to make some noise in the postseason. 

 

The Dreamer in me hopes that they can keep this ball rolling. The problems with the team are fixable. The Canucks IMO are only a couple of 3rd liners and a Shutdown LD away from actually being a good team. Not impossible moves to make. My targets....

 

Tanner Jeannot Bottom 6 w can put up points and beat the crap out of Luke Schenn.

Michael Macleod Excellent on faceoffs and PK, right shot C

Jonas Siegenthaler Big Shutdown LD

 

These guy's shouldn't cost us the moon. Just have to find a taker for Pearson + Hammonic that will probably be harder but not impossible. 

 

Miller Bo Boeser

Garland Pete Pod

Jeannot Macleod Hoglander

Dicky Sutter? Motte

 

Hughes Schenn

OEL Myers

Siegenthaler Poolman

 

They aren't terribly far away from being a team that can challenge for post season glory the real question is...... Is this the season to push? Or are they far better off long term with a top 10 pick this year and trying to come back next season and take a real run at it.

 

 

 

 

Actually like your idea a lot... can't say I know too much about mentioned players, but if they are not going to destroy any budget, these are exactly the types of players we could be done with. tough bottom winger, a face off C, and and a big stay at home D.... 

Good call.