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cdgraham

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I would want to keep Miller if at all possible but at a cap hit that makes sense ($8M imo).

 

 

 

But if trading with NYR...

 

Miller + Ferland for 1st 2022/23 + Chytil + Schneider + Kratsov

 

If they don't want Ferland, then I'd ask for Kakko instead of Kratsov. 

 

Meh...

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13 minutes ago, HKSR said:

I don't think anyone is saying 1C, 2C, or 3C with Petey, Bo, and Miller.  It's more like 1A, 1B, and 1C at this point.  Followed up by a 4th line that is a hybrid 3rd/4th checking/energy unit.

 

Most analysts are saying Miller looks fantastic at centre.  It's being proven true based on the play on the ice too.  This is the best he has looked in awhile.

 

Again, I think you undervalue Myers and what he brings as our top RHD.  Teams would lineup for his services right now.  Even at $6M AAV.

 

I'm of the opinion the window is open right now, and will remain open as long as we keep the core together.  Move Miller and it'll set us back 2 or 3 years.

He's a great player, which is why he's worth so much. We're a longshot to make the playoffs despite this winning streak, if we miss (still likely) that leaves one season to figure things out before he hits UFA if he isn't re-signed before then. Assuming he hasn't been traded. Re-signing him to the dollars and term he'll command is a big risk. Is it worth taking? That ain't up to me, but it's a risk nonetheless. Miller right now, at almost 29, isn't necessarily what we'll see at 32 and on. There's no guarantee he'll even produce the way he is next season, they call it a career year for a reason. 

 

Nah, Myers is full value for what he's paid. But he's aging, that's my point. He'll be 32 soon, 34 by the time his deal is done. Sooner than later we'll need to decide whether he's worth retaining or not, same goes for Hamonic. 

 

And I don't think keeping the band together is realistic given how the cap's laid out. Boeser needs to be re-upped, Miller and Horvat will be UFA's the same offseason, Hamonic's replacement will cost more than 3M, Podkolzin and Hoglander will need raises, Pettersson will need a new deal. Moving players like Dickinson and Pearson out doesn't guarantee success, neither does finding a way to have a very expensive top six. I'm of the opinion that you can only allocate so much to your top six before it begins to negatively impact the rest of your roster.

 

Garland, Horvat, Petterson, Boeser, Miller, and Hoglander could be an extremely expensive top six as soon as three seasons from now. 

Edited by Coconuts
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6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

He's a great player, which is why he's worth so much. We're a longshot to make the playoffs despite this winning streak, if we miss (still likely) that leaves on season to figure things out before he hits UFA if he isn't re-signed before then. Re-signing him to the dollars and term he'll command is a big risk. Is it worth taking? That ain't up to me, but it's a risk nonetheless. Miller right now, at almost 29, isn't necessarily what we'll see at 32 and on. There's no guarantee he'll even produce the way he is next season, they call it a career year for a reason. 

 

Nah, Myers is full value for what he's paid. But he's aging, that's my point. He'll be 32 soon, 34 by the time his deal is done. Sooner than later we'll need to decide whether he's worth retaining or not, same goes for Hamonic. 

 

And I don't think keeping the band together is realistic given how the cap's laid out. Boeser needs to be re-upped, Miller and Horvat will be UFA's the same offseason, Hamonic's replacement will cost more than 3M, Podkolzin and Hoglander will need raises, Pettersson will need a new deal. Moving players like Dickinson and Pearson out doesn't guarantee success, neither does finding a way to have a very expensive top six. I'm of the opinion that you can only allocate so much to your top six before it begins to negatively impact the rest of your roster.

 

Garland, Horvat, Petterson, Boeser, Miller, and Hoglander could be an extremely expensive top six as soon as three seasons from now. 

This is exactly my point.  The window is open now.  Hogs and Podz are on ELCs.  Garland is on a really cap friendly deal.  Same with Miller for that matter.

Petey is on a bridge, and Bo is still on his cheap contract.

 

As I mentioned, I'd much rather try and replace Dickinson and Pearson with ELCs or cheap UFAs than try to replace Miller. 

 

I firmly believe if we move Miller now, we set the team back 2 or 3 years until we have a window open again.  At which time we have to hope we have players similar to Hogs and Podz on ELCs and a true Top 6 at a 30% discount (Garland).

 

Oh, and not to mention a replacement for Myers and Hamonic on the right side. 

 

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3 minutes ago, HKSR said:

This is exactly my point.  The window is open now.  Hogs and Podz are on ELCs.  Garland is on a really cap friendly deal.  Same with Miller for that matter.

Petey is on a bridge, and Bo is still on his cheap contract.

 

As I mentioned, I'd much rather try and replace Dickinson and Pearson with ELCs or cheap UFAs than try to replace Miller. 

 

I firmly believe if we move Miller now, we set the team back 2 or 3 years until we have a window open again.  At which time we have to hope we have players similar to Hogs and Podz on ELCs and a true Top 6 at a 30% discount (Garland).

 

Oh, and not to mention a replacement for Myers and Hamonic on the right side. 

 

It is, but it's arguably a briefer window than we'd have if we built around the future as opposed to the aging present. That's part of what moving Miller boils down to, his age versus that of the rest of the course, but also skepticism regarding whether he wants to stay here at all. 

 

He likely wasn't thrilled to leave Tampa, they went on to win two cups. He's also losing more on his deal here because of taxes. Even with Miller, we're not guaranteed to be competitive let alone contenders. This would be his first, and possibly only chance to explore UFA. He may not want to stay in Canada. Arguing this or that is a moot point when we don't even know if he wants to stay. That's no guarantee, and others like myself are of the opinion that we absolutely can't afford to let him walk for nothing. Not only would it hurt our roster, it'd hurt our future because of the lack of assets gotten for him. I figure he'll sign in the US, lot of players don't like playing in Canadian markets, even Canadian players.

 

We don't know what Miller wants, he may not even be sure yet. But his staying here is no guarantee and it shouldn't be assumed that it is. 

 

So from my point of view, we may very well be 2-3 year away from our window regardless of whether we trade Miller or not. 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, HKSR said:

This is exactly my point.  The window is open now.  Hogs and Podz are on ELCs.  Garland is on a really cap friendly deal.  Same with Miller for that matter.

Petey is on a bridge, and Bo is still on his cheap contract.

 

As I mentioned, I'd much rather try and replace Dickinson and Pearson with ELCs or cheap UFAs than try to replace Miller. 

 

I firmly believe if we move Miller now, we set the team back 2 or 3 years until we have a window open again.  At which time we have to hope we have players similar to Hogs and Podz on ELCs and a true Top 6 at a 30% discount (Garland).

 

Oh, and not to mention a replacement for Myers and Hamonic on the right side. 

 

It's really dependent on how much Boeser, Miller and Horvat will re-sign.

 

If Miller is looking for his big pay day ($9M+), unfortunately it won't be with the Canucks. 

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1 minute ago, BPA said:

It's really dependent on how much Boeser, Miller and Horvat will re-sign.

 

If Miller is looking for his big pay day ($9M+), unfortunately it won't be with the Canucks. 

Yeah if it's $9M+, we just simply can't afford it.  $8 to $8.5M AAV and we definitely have a good debate on it.

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17 hours ago, cdgraham said:

In celebration of a win I just want to say something I've been thinking for a while. Miller is a core forward for us and I am seriously doubting if I would prioritize any other forward more so then him, I think he is at very least equal to any of them. Definitely part of the core and identity of this team. I think he's a number one center, is great on faceoffs, pk, PP (Has points on 15 of our 20 pp goals the sharks announcer said) 

 

I don't care that he's a few years older then some of the other core guys, he doesn't look like he's slowing down anytime soon. I'd honestly hand a blank cheque to him and sign him for 7 years provided the annual average value doesn't exceed 9.5 million. I wouldnt blink twice about giving him an 8 million 5-7 year contract. (Obviously would prefer less year and money, but I would still do it if it's what it took) 

 

He deserves to be our highest paid player, and could set the internal cap limit too. Leading scorer since he got here its not really close. Again this year. 

 

I think I'd rather him then the current iteration of John Tavares, and before people say 9.5 is way to high that JT is paid 11 million. 

 

Jones 9.5, kaprisov got 9.5, point got that. There are actually lots of players that got that who aren't even remotely as good (skinner) 

 

Point is 8 million would actually be a steal at this point. You can also tell its true by the rest of the league salivating at the thought of taking him off our hands. 

 

13th in league scoring now, 1 point behind John Tavares coincidentally as I compared the two. 

 

Don't trade Miller, and resign him, summary of post. 

 

 

 

 

1000 upvotes for you 

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6 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It is, but it's arguably a briefer window than we'd have if we built around the future as opposed to the aging present. That's part of what moving Miller boils down to, his age versus that of the rest of the course, but also skepticism regarding whether he wants to stay here at all. 

 

He likely wasn't thrilled to leave Tampa, they went on to win two cups. He's also losing more on his deal here because of taxes. Even with Miller, we're not guaranteed to be competitive let alone contenders. This would be his first, and possibly only chance to explore UFA. He may not want to stay in Canada. Arguing this or that is a moot point when we don't even know if he wants to stay. That's no guarantee, and others like myself are of the opinion that we absolutely can't afford to let him walk for nothing. Not only would it hurt our roster, it'd hurt our future because of the lack of assets gotten for him. I figure he'll sign in the US, lot of players don't like playing in Canadian markets, even Canadian players.

 

We don't know what Miller wants, he may not even be sure yet. But his staying here is no guarantee and it shouldn't be assumed that it is. 

 

So from my point of view, we may very well be 2-3 year away from our window regardless of whether we trade Miller or not. 

 

 

 

 

Thing is, if you move Miller, it'll probably take 2 or 3 years to get to the open window.  That would likely mean you have a 2 or 3 year window then too since guys like Demko and Horvat would be around 30yo. 

 

Right now, there's probably a period of about 3 or 4 years as well. 

 

So either work with what we know we have now, or hope that things fall into place again in 2 or 3 years.

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4 minutes ago, HKSR said:

Thing is, if you move Miller, it'll probably take 2 or 3 years to get to the open window.  That would likely mean you have a 2 or 3 year window then too since guys like Demko and Horvat would be around 30yo. 

 

Right now, there's probably a period of about 3 or 4 years as well. 

 

So either work with what we know we have now, or hope that things fall into place again in 2 or 3 years.

Depends, does a Miller trade take place within a vacuum or are there other moves? Can Pettersson and Horvat play as 1/2C next season with a more well rounded roster? We've got wingers in Garland, Boeser, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. Pearson ain't a bad tweener. Could potentially bring someone in, could win the lottery. Could have an asset we get in return for Miller on the roster. There's no replacing Miller if he's traded, that's a big ask, but that doesn't mean we'd have to stand pat and resign ourselves to missing the playoffs going forward. I don't see why we couldn't make a run at the playoffs without him, our wingers ain't bad and Pettersson and Horvat are good players. Potentially opening up 5.3M plus could help plug other roster holes. Take from a current strength to shore up a weakness sort of thing.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Depends, does a Miller trade take place within a vacuum or are there other moves? Can Pettersson and Horvat play as 1/2C next season with a more well rounded roster? We've got wingers in Garland, Boeser, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. Pearson ain't a bad tweener. Could potentially bring someone in, could win the lottery. Could have an asset we get in return for Miller on the roster. There's no replacing Miller if he's traded, that's a big ask, but that doesn't mean we'd have to stand pat and resign ourselves to missing the playoffs going forward. I don't see why we couldn't make a run at the playoffs without him, our wingers ain't bad and Pettersson and Horvat are good players. Potentially opening up 5.3M plus could help plug other roster holes. Take from a current strength to shore up a weakness sort of thing.

 

 

Making the playoffs and pushing to win it all are 2 completely different things.  When I say "the window is open", I mean the window to push for a Cup. 

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Just now, HKSR said:

Making the playoffs and pushing to win it all are 2 completely different things.  When I say "the window is open", I mean the window to push for a Cup. 

If this roster is a contender, and I don't think it is as currently structured, there's no reason why they couldn't push without Miller. If they bring in assets, allocate cap space to fill other roster holes.. say.. beef up our bottom six and D, there's a chance we may even be a better, more well rounded team. This roster doesn't live or die on the back of a forward, they do it on the back of Demko. 

 

Wouldn't be the first team to have success without a top player. 

 

Horvat, Petterson, Boeser, Hoglander, Podkolzin, and Garland ain't an awful top six. Maybe there's an addition, maybe Podz stays on the third line. Maybe we bring in someone in the vein of a defensive PK style 3c and keep Podz and someone else on his wings to provide offense. Maybe we improve on Burroughs, he's a depth RD anyway. 

 

I don't see us as a contender with or without Miller, but there's no reason we couldn't be a competitive team that could possibly make the playoffs. Gotta crawl before you can walk, talking about winning a cup is a pie in the sky when this organization made the playoffs what.. twice in eight years? Of course we want a cup, but realistic expectations and goals are important. 

 

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2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

You're right, but to be a few points off from PPG seasons at ages 19-22 is remarkable. He's essentially been PPG to begin his career and should be kept imo. 

 

Miller wasn't the player he is to begin his career, rare is the player that is. Players grow, learn and develop, there's no reason Pettersson couldn't evolve into a better player too. Not that you've made an argument against that. 

 

If you'd keep both that's your opinion and you're welcome to it, I'm just making cases for my own arguments and I've got my own opinions and rationale. I'm not looking to make disagreements personal or change people's opinions. If some of what I say gets people thinking that's fine, if not we're just going back in forth on a forum and I've lost nothing but time. 

Ya no you've been pretty reasonable I'd say. I get the train of thought. Certainly you are right I know what's pettersson has done so far is remarkable, and I'd be shocked if he didn't improve. But I don't want to give up other players that are currently better in the hope he improves even if I think he will. Luckily we have time to assess and track his improvements over the rest of the season and next 

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Just now, cdgraham said:

Ya no you've been pretty reasonable I'd say. I get the train of thought. Certainly you are right I know what's pettersson has done so far is remarkable, and I'd be shocked if he didn't improve. But I don't want to give up other players that are currently better in the hope he improves even if I think he will. Luckily we have time to assess and track his improvements over the rest of the season and next 

At the very least I'd give the team til leading up to the deadline, I ain't talking move Miller tomorrow. If they're in the mix I could see them going for the playoffs and re-assessing things at the end of the season. If we're out, I think a lot of players may be on the table. 

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1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

At the very least I'd give the team til leading up to the deadline, I ain't talking move Miller tomorrow. If they're in the mix I could see them going for the playoffs and re-assessing things at the end of the season. If we're out, I think a lot of players may be on the table. 

Hmm ya I wouldn't even consider moving him at the deadline this season if the team continues what they have. Especially if Miller keeps this up. I don't think selling is a good plan, I think adding to what we have should be the move. 

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10 minutes ago, cdgraham said:

Hmm ya I wouldn't even consider moving him at the deadline this season if the team continues what they have. Especially if Miller keeps this up. I don't think selling is a good plan, I think adding to what we have should be the move. 

Guess we'll see? If they manage to climb back into the mix it's a tabled conversation for a while, but if they tail off.. who knows. 

 

Could be Miller, could be Boeser, hard to say. Also depends on what they intend to do, moving one player ain't a teardown. It'd have to be judged on what's gotten in return and what ensuring moves are made. I don't expect any trade will happen in a vacuum. 

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30 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Guess we'll see? If they manage to climb back into the mix it's a tabled conversation for a while, but if they tail off.. who knows. 

 

Could be Miller, could be Boeser, hard to say. Also depends on what they intend to do, moving one player ain't a teardown. It'd have to be judged on what's gotten in return and what ensuring moves are made. I don't expect any trade will happen in a vacuum. 

Fair enough ya. If we trade anyone of significance though we need to not botch it. That would be terrible 

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8 hours ago, HKSR said:

Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but we can afford them while only having to move Pearson.

 

temp.jpg.2c9b940ea4993251b98ed8099a84a6e6.jpg has a great forward

HKSR

 

You did a great job on this 

 

But as much as it has a great forward group, we are still in need of that #1/2 RHD with absolutely no cap

 

This is the problem.

 

I think everyone loves our forwards

 

But how with our cap implications do we improve our defensive corps?

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5 hours ago, HKSR said:

I'll give you one thing, you're definitely not being a dick about any of this lol.  Then I looked and saw you're a fellow Islander and realized that's why you're not a dick hahaha

To all us Islanders! 

 

cheers-frank-sinatra.gif

 

 

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Depends, does a Miller trade take place within a vacuum or are there other moves? Can Pettersson and Horvat play as 1/2C next season with a more well rounded roster? We've got wingers in Garland, Boeser, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. Pearson ain't a bad tweener. Could potentially bring someone in, could win the lottery. Could have an asset we get in return for Miller on the roster. There's no replacing Miller if he's traded, that's a big ask, but that doesn't mean we'd have to stand pat and resign ourselves to missing the playoffs going forward. I don't see why we couldn't make a run at the playoffs without him, our wingers ain't bad and Pettersson and Horvat are good players. Potentially opening up 5.3M plus could help plug other roster holes. Take from a current strength to shore up a weakness sort of thing.

 

 

This exactly. There's no reason this team can't be just as good/potentially better with the return from Miller, as soon as next year.

 

Even if we continue on a good run, we're likely not picking much later than 15+/-. We should get a good prospect (or if earlier, an even better one). We'll have the return from Miller as well (RHD?). We can target a guy like Nick Paul as UFA to 3C , to kill penalties, win faceoffs and bring some of the grit we'd be losing back.

 

Losing Miller is not some vacuous, inescapable hole we can't escape from. Losing him for no return though....?

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5 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Garland, Horvat, Petterson, Boeser, Miller, and Hoglander could be an extremely expensive top six as soon as three seasons from now. 

This!!! That is why it is so IMPORTANT to continually draft well, so you HOPEFULLY hit on some of your picks so you can continue to insert young ELC to your team to fill out the roster and potential be an impact at a LOW cap hit...over exceeding PTS wise by making LESS $$

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