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4 hours ago, khay said:

Let's not forget the first 25 games of garbage under Green with 8-15-2 record. There were few games where we dominated and should have won if not for Green's retched system, if we went even 11-12-1 in the first 25 games, we would be 17-12-1 right now and in the playoffs.

 

The way the team is playing now is more reflective of what they are. Sure, we will eventually lose games and our weaknesses will be exposed but right now is not the time to consider trading Miller when we finally have the lines set up so well.

 

I'm not against trading Miller but it will have to wait until the TDL (if we are clearly out by then) or the offseason.

 

The players are playing hard and we should reward them by giving them a longer leash.

 

It's true, having begun the season under Green could potentially be what loses us the season. It's a shame, but that's on ownership and previous management for not pulling the plug sooner. Benning's tying himself to Green's wagon has cost us thus far. 

 

Right now? Yeah, I wouldn't be looking to move anyone. Closer to the deadline? He absolutely should be on the table if we're out of it. There's no reason we can't be a competitive team moving forward without him and his age doesn't fit with the rest of our younger core. Lines could be set well with other players, the cap freed up by moving him could be allocated to bolstering another area of the roster going forward. Assets could be stockpiled or moved for a roster player or more. There are plenty of options that could have us playing competitive hockey going forward, and building around our younger core while still working to compete could potentially extend our window. It's a gamble in a lot of ways, keeping him or moving him. 

 

But yeah, I'd give them til closer to the deadline and see what they can do, they've earned that much. 

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On 12/17/2021 at 8:32 AM, HKSR said:

Ok, here's my take on it with actual numbers.  Assuming a $1M bump in the cap each year.  Although we are hearing that the 2024-25 season may see a significant increase due to escrow being paid back to the owners.  In which case, we definitely can afford all of our forwards.

 

Boeser at $7.5M AAV

Bo at $7.5M AAV

Miller at $8M AAV

Petey at $8.5M AAV

 

Petey is the question mark.  Is he gonna be a Top 10 player in the league?  Or is the current Petey more of who he is at a steady PPG which means he's more of a Tier 2 level star (Tier 1 level being McDavid, Draisatl, Kucherov, Kaprizov, etc).  I used Sebastian Aho as a comparable who scored 66pts in 68gms before signing his big deal.

 

Hogs and Podz both get $4M AAV deals, likely bridge contracts.  Unless they REALLY start putting up big numbers, this is probably realistic. 

Motte extended at $2M AAV. 

 

Pearson needs to be traded in the last year of his deal.  Either that or Dickinson needs to go. 

Finally, when Myers' current deal is up, I doubt we see him making $6M AAV again.  I dropped his AAV by $1M down to $5M AAV.

temp.jpg.8b76d09bde7ecc42246dd0a0a3e8c7bd.jpg

Anyways, bottom line is that keeping all 4 of Petey, Miller, Bo, and Boeser is completely possible.  Unless you can trade JT Miller for a young impact centre, all we do is create a hole that needs to be filled again.  Who would replace him at either 2C or 3C?

Yay, you actually did the math instead of mindlessly repeating the talking point about there not being enough cap space to keep all of Brock, Bo and Miller.  There totally is, and all anyone had to do was look at Capfriendly to see so.  What people were forgetting about is Luongo's cap recapture penalty ending after this year and the Holtby/Virtanen buyouts ending after next:  5.4 million right there.  Of course that money could be spent in other ways and we might end up moving on from one of those forwards for team balance reasons, but that's a separate question. 

Miller is a total stud and central to this team's identity.  Letting him walk would be an even bigger mistake than letting Tanev go.  If he won't re-sign, of course we should deal him but this is the kind of guy you overpay on the back end of a long term deal for what he brings now and most likely the next 5 years.  Brock is way more replaceable than Miller and until Petey gets his full mojo back, I'd say the same about him. 

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10 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Yay, you actually did the math instead of mindlessly repeating the talking point about there not being enough cap space to keep all of Brock, Bo and Miller.  There totally is, and all anyone had to do was look at Capfriendly to see so.  What people were forgetting about is Luongo's cap recapture penalty ending after this year and the Holtby/Virtanen buyouts ending after next:  5.4 million right there.  Of course that money could be spent in other ways and we might end up moving on from one of those forwards for team balance reasons, but that's a separate question. 

Miller is a total stud and central to this team's identity.  Letting him walk would be an even bigger mistake than letting Tanev go.  If he won't re-sign, of course we should deal him but this is the kind of guy you overpay on the back end of a long term deal for what he brings now and most likely the next 5 years.  Brock is way more replaceable than Miller and until Petey gets his full mojo back, I'd say the same about him. 

Completely agree.

 

But I think it comes down to retool vs going for it with what we have.

 

If we are retooling, Miller offers the best trade value (to a cup contending team). Reasonable cap hit, brings size for the playoffs, can play wing or center equally well, PK, PP, he can do everything. You only trade such player if you are retooling because you will need to replace him with another (younger) guy like him.

 

And our core is relatively young that if JR comes out at the end of January and says that we are going to retool, I don't think he will be met with much resistance.

 

Stockpile on picks and prospects, draft well for the next 2 years, hopefully a center and an RHD. Then go for the cup when the core players are in their mid 20's.

 

On the other hand, I feel like the team has enough momentum going that we may actually have a good shot at the playoffs. I think the Flames, with the whole team getting hit with COVID, will falter. Ducks might not have what the depth to make it through the long season. I think it could be Vegas, Oilers, and Canucks making it out of the Pacific division. 

 

If we make the playoffs and win couple of rounds, retool will be a tough sell. Then, the only choice is to keep Miller and find a way to fill other holes in the lineup without giving up a 1st. Not gonna be easy since we don't have many prospects knocking on the door at this point.

 

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 9 players signed for the beginning of 23-24 with $33,7650,000  in space left

Brock needs be signed the year before, so deduct what they pay him and think of what 13 more players, including Miller and Bo will cost.

I'd say at least $15 mil is going to Bo and Miller.

And minimum $7 for Brock

 

leaves $11 million to sign 11 players, including a back up tender.

Looks very tight to me.

https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/canucks

Edited by gurn
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2 minutes ago, khay said:

Completely agree.

 

But I think it comes down to retool vs going for it with what we have.

 

If we are retooling, Miller offers the best trade value (to a cup contending team). Reasonable cap hit, brings size for the playoffs, can play wing or center equally well, PK, PP, he can do everything. You only trade such player if you are retooling because you will need to replace him with another (younger) guy like him.

 

And our core is relatively young that if JR comes out at the end of January and says that we are going to retool, I don't think he will be met with much resistance.

 

Stockpile on picks and prospects, draft well for the next 2 years, hopefully a center and an RHD. Then go for the cup when the core players are in their mid 20's.

 

On the other hand, I feel like the team has enough momentum going that we may actually have a good shot at the playoffs. I think the Flames, with the whole team getting hit with COVID, will falter. Ducks might not have what the depth to make it through the long season. I think it could be Vegas, Oilers, and Canucks making it out of the Pacific division. 

 

If we make the playoffs and win couple of rounds, retool will be a tough sell. Then, the only choice is to keep Miller and find a way to fill other holes in the lineup without giving up a 1st. Not gonna be easy since we don't have many prospects knocking on the door at this point.

 

For sure there are some hard decisions coming and a lot will depend on how the team plays in the next couple of months.  The first step is to see what you have under a competent coaching regime, and so far, so good.  Maybe we actually are a good team or maybe there are still too many holes in the lineup to put any stock in this group:  we'll see.  Mixed in with that assessment, time-wise, has to be a preliminary conversation with Miller's agent to find out if he would be open to re-signing here if things go well with the team.  If the answer is "yes" there will undoubtedly be tough negotiations ahead over money that might lead to a trade, but if the answer is "no" then it goes straight to a trade, and the sooner  the better.  But I don't think the team should choose to re-tool by initiating a Miller trade, and only do it if he won't re-sign or prices himself out of the market (e.g. 9M).  Cup winning teams typically have their core players distributed over a 10 year age bracket, with some key players in the early to mid 30s.  Miller could be that guy for us.  So I don't automatically buy the idea that just because of his age, he should be the guy we move to fill any holes.  If we do move him, it should be because he wouldn't re-sign, or re-sign at a viable number.

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On 12/17/2021 at 6:33 PM, J.I.A.H.N said:

HKSR

 

You did a great job on this 

 

But as much as it has a great forward group, we are still in need of that #1/2 RHD with absolutely no cap

 

This is the problem.

 

I think everyone loves our forwards

 

But how with our cap implications do we improve our defensive corps?

Okay, but that's a different matter than claiming we don't have the cap space, so you're moving the goalposts here. 

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1 hour ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Okay, but that's a different matter than claiming we don't have the cap space, so you're moving the goalposts here. 

No, if we sign Boeser to a 7.5 X 7 contract, we will be over budget

Because next year we have Holtby and Virtanen's buyout to pay (2.4 Million)

So we have to move cap this coming summer

 

That is with out adding a RHD

 

So something has to give to complete the team

 

Otherwise we either live with the current situation

or we

draft a RHD and wait 3 years and hope!

 

One is not the other, but they are very connected

 

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4 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

No, if we sign Boeser to a 7.5 X 7 contract, we will be over budget

Because next year we have Holtby and Virtanen's buyout to pay (2.4 Million)

So we have to move cap this coming summer

 

That is with out adding a RHD

 

So something has to give to complete the team

 

Otherwise we either live with the current situation

or we

draft a RHD and wait 3 years and hope!

 

One is not the other, but they are very connected

 

Just plain wrong.  Luongo's 3M hit ends this year and the cap goes up by 1M.  So if we keep the rest of the roster the same, that's 4M to deal with raises for Boesser and Motte.  It's more than enough.  Seriously man, check out Capfriendly and you won't make these blunders. 

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2 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Just plain wrong.  Luongo's 3M hit ends this year and the cap goes up by 1M.  So if we keep the rest of the roster the same, that's 4M to deal with raises for Boesser and Motte.  It's more than enough.  Seriously man, check out Capfriendly and you won't make these blunders. 

Totally agree.  Miller is a fabulous player!  Trading him now is incredibly STUPID, with a capital M.  

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3 hours ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Just plain wrong.  Luongo's 3M hit ends this year and the cap goes up by 1M.  So if we keep the rest of the roster the same, that's 4M to deal with raises for Boesser and Motte.  It's more than enough.  Seriously man, check out Capfriendly and you won't make these blunders. 

 

We will have carryover bonuses of roughly 650k 1.5M-2M(Halak, Pod, Hog bonuses) roughly going into next year. 

 

Roughly 9-9.5M in cap to re-sign Boeser who has a 7.5M qualifying offer and is starting to get hot, a solid back up G if we're competing(rookie back up in DiPietro won't cut it for a team looking toward playoffs), and Motte(who is due for a raise as well). That will be rough to work around. We will be relying on a lot of under 1M dollar players in the bottom 6 as depth pieces. Likely have to downgrade in order to re-sign the players we need.

 

We won't be bringing in any good RD without moving cap out. The holes on the roster that Rutherford mentioned in his first presser are incapable of being addressed without significant cap reallocation.

 

Then you have Hog/Miller/Horvat next year in 2023

 

If you want to keep everybody then you win with the group we have now and nothing else. This roster as it is won't see any serious additions unless the cap is allocated differently.

Edited by Junkyard Dog
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2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

We will have carryover bonuses of roughly 650k going into next year.

 

Roughly 10.5M in cap to re-sign Boeser who has a 7.5M qualifying offer and is starting to get hot, a solid back up G if we're competing(rookie back up in DiPietro won't cut it for a team looking toward playoffs), and Motte(who is due for a raise as well). That will take up all of that cap. We will be relying on a lot of under 1M dollar players in the bottom 6 as depth pieces.

 

We won't be bringing in any good RD without moving cap out. The holes on the roster that Rutherford mentioned in his first presser are incapable of being addressed without significant cap reallocation.

 

Then you have Hog/Miller/Horvat next year in 2023

 

If you want to keep everybody then you win with the group we have now and nothing else. This roster as it is won't see any serious additions unless the cap is allocated differently.

That's right.  But we can keep this roster next year if we want to.  The claim was that we can't, which is wrong.  It gets harder the following year with Bo and Miller needing raises but there's the 2.4 M in expiring buyouts, Hamonic's 3M coming off the books, and any raise that there might be in the cap.  Worst case, we might have to move another piece in the 2-3M range to make it work, but that's not the biggest challenge.   

Personally, I don't accept that our RD is the catastrophe some people say it is.  Myers has been great in the new system, Poolman was better until he went down, and Hamonic was fine as a mid-pairing option.  Then there's the crazy depth of Schenn, Burroughs, Juulsen and Bowey, the first three of which can play in the NHL. 

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30 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

That's right.  But we can keep this roster next year if we want to.  The claim was that we can't, which is wrong.  It gets harder the following year with Bo and Miller needing raises but there's the 2.4 M in expiring buyouts, Hamonic's 3M coming off the books, and any raise that there might be in the cap.  Worst case, we might have to move another piece in the 2-3M range to make it work, but that's not the biggest challenge.   

Personally, I don't accept that our RD is the catastrophe some people say it is.  Myers has been great in the new system, Poolman was better until he went down, and Hamonic was fine as a mid-pairing option.  Then there's the crazy depth of Schenn, Burroughs, Juulsen and Bowey, the first three of which can play in the NHL. 

I see.

 

We can for sure keep the roster going into next year. I most people believe this year we could get more of a return for certain individuals and they're not wrong there but we can hold on nevertheless if we wanted to.

 

I feel more is needed than just a coach. That's a big reason why Rutherford was brought in and he has already acknowledged that there are holes on the roster. I don't think we have the capabilities of being a consistent playoff team or contender with this core personally.  And if we were a playoff team/contender already we could afford to make changes and address these holes on the roster. That's me personally.

 

How I would go about it is reevaluate come trade deadline time. If we aren't holding on to a playoff spot by then, then the we should make change for the future. Rutherford did state he wants to gain age(get younger) in any trade he makes(as the core group is already fairly young) and that he doesn't mind if it takes a few years for the team to develop into a contender.

Edited by Junkyard Dog
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1 hour ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Just plain wrong.  Luongo's 3M hit ends this year and the cap goes up by 1M.  So if we keep the rest of the roster the same, that's 4M to deal with raises for Boesser and Motte.  It's more than enough.  Seriously man, check out Capfriendly and you won't make these blunders. 

Pettersson..................................$7,350,000

Boeser........................................$7,500,000 (RFA) Currently $5,875,000

Horvat.........................................$5,500,000

Miller...........................................$5,250,000

Garland...................................... $4,950,000

Pearson......................................$3,250,000

Dickenson...................................$2,650,000

Motte...........................................$1,750,000 (UFA) Currently $1,225,000

Podkolzin......................................$925,000

Hoglander.....................................$891,667

Dowling.........................................$750,000

Highmore......................................$750,000 (RFA)..............no raise given

Lammikko.....................................$750,000 (RFA)..............no raise given

                                                  ==============

Forwards (13)..............................$42,266,667

 

Hughes..........................................$7,850,000

OEL...............................................$7,260,000

Myers............................................$6,000,000

Hamonic........................................$3,000,000

Poolman........................................$2,000,000

Rathbone.........................................$925,000 (RFA)............no raise given

Schenn.............................................$850,000

Juusen..............................................$750,000 (RFA)...........no raise given

 

Defensemen.(8)...........................$28,635,000

 

Demko............................................$5,000,000

Halak..............................................$1,500,000 (UFA)

 

Goalies (2).....................................$6,500,000

 

TEAM...............................TOTAL $77,401,667

 

Holtby.............................................$1,900,000

Virtanen.............................................$500,000

 

BUYOUTS......................................$2,400,000

 

TEAM ...............................TOTAL $79,801,000

 

POSSIBLE PERFRMANCE BONUS'S CARRIED FORWARD

 

                                                        $2,500,000

 

TEAM TOTAL................................$82,301,000

 

PROPOSED 2022-2023 CAP........$82,500,000

 

NOTE* This does not include Ferlands $3,500,000 that must be on the opening game cap for 23 men, before being put on LTIR, which complicates things even more.

 

 

But even greater than all that is that if you want me to converse with you and take you seriously. Talk a little nicer. It seemed a little condescending. We work better as a team. 

But I do see your point................it is close one way or another............I did not give raises to 4 players..........I wonder if I should and how much they may have been?

 

Certainly no money to get a #2/3 RHD without moving someone, that is for sure.

 

Let's not even talk about the next couple of years............................................................

 

I would also point out with all the covid cancelled games, there is no certainty that the league will be able to afford the additional $1,000,000 in Cap. I think that is up in the air until it is not, but that is only my opinion.

 

 

 

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Miller is the core of the core. Funny how at 28 we are saying he is out of the age group for the “next” core. I believe the best move is to sell high and I feel the reason for that is the lack of previous management decisions on letting players walk or play past their prime. If you can get a couple first round picks and use the money towards a poor man’s version in UFA you do that as they are pretty much equal in age. The picks obviously go towards another younger trade chip or drafting for the future core.

 

Asset management 

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20 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I see.

 

We can for sure keep the roster going into next year. I most people believe this year we could get more of a return for certain individuals and they're not wrong there but we can hold on nevertheless if we wanted to.

 

I feel more is needed than just a coach. That's a big reason why Rutherford was brought in and he has already acknowledged that there are holes on the roster. I don't think we have the capabilities of being a consistent playoff team or contender with this core personally.  And if we were a playoff team/contender already we could afford to make changes and address these holes on the roster. That's me personally.

 

How I would go about it is reevaluate come trade deadline time. If we aren't holding on to a playoff spot by then, then the we should make change for the future. Rutherford did state he wants to gain age(get younger) in any trade he makes(as the core group is already fairly young) and that he doesn't mind if it takes a few years for the team to develop into a contender.

For sure the next few months are for evaluation, and it's more than fair to suspect that there are still some holes to fill.  But the team is playing so differently under Boudreau that a lot of our earlier judgements about the roster may have to be revised:  we'll see.   For example, with Hughes playing at borderline Norris level, I'm not so sure that it's as urgent to get a Tanev-like partner in order to get the best out of him.  It would be nice but he's doing it on his own now

So beyond filling holes, there is the question of what kind of team we're going to be:  high octane run and gun, or a more balanced approach.  That where things get really interesting.

 

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4 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Pettersson..................................$7,350,000

Boeser........................................$7,500,000 (RFA) Currently $5,875,000

Horvat.........................................$5,500,000

Miller...........................................$5,250,000

Garland...................................... $4,950,000

Pearson......................................$3,250,000

Dickenson...................................$2,650,000

Motte...........................................$1,750,000 (RFA) Currently $1,225,000

Podkolzin......................................$925,000

Hoglander.....................................$891,667

Dowling.........................................$750,000

Highmore......................................$750,000 (RFA)..............no raise given

Lammikko.....................................$750,000 (RFA)..............no raise given

                                                  ==============

Forwards (13)..............................$42,266,667

 

Hughes..........................................$7,850,000

OEL...............................................$7,260,000

Myers............................................$6,000,000

Hamonic........................................$3,000,000

Poolman........................................$2,000,000

Rathbone.........................................$925,000 (RFA)............no raise given

Schenn.............................................$850,000

Juusen..............................................$750,000 (RFA)...........no raise given

 

Defensemen.(8)...........................$28,635,000

 

Demko............................................$5,000,000

Halak..............................................$1,500,000 (UFA)

 

Goalies (2).....................................$6,500,000

 

TEAM...............................TOTAL $77,401,667

 

Holtby.............................................$1,900,000

Virtanen.............................................$500,000

 

BUYOUTS......................................$2,400,000

 

TEAM ...............................TOTAL $79,801,000

 

POSSIBLE PERFRMANCE BONUS'S CARRIED FORWARD

 

                                                        $2,500,000

 

TEAM TOTAL................................$82,301,000

 

PROPOSED 2022-2023 CAP........$82,500,000

 

NOTE* This does not include Ferlands $3,500,000 that must be on the opening game cap for 23 men, before being put on LTIR, which complicates things even more.

 

 

But even greater than all that is that if you want me to converse with you and take you seriously. Talk a little nicer. It seemed a little condescending. We work better as a team. 

But I do see your point................it is close one way or another............I did not give raises to 4 players..........I wonder if I should and how much they may have been?

 

Certainly no money to get a #2/3 RHD without moving someone, that is for sure.

 

Let's not even talk about the next couple of years............................................................

 

I would also point out with all the covid cancelled games, there is no certainty that the league will be able to afford the additional $1,000,000 in Cap. I think that is up in the air until it is not, but that is only my opinion.

 

 

 

I'm happy to talk nice but that particular point had been covered multiple times in this thread and others.  In the end, we agree on what the situation is and that's good.  None of this is to say that we might want to re-jig where we spend our money in the lineup, but that's a choice, not a necessity.  Personally, I like a run and gun lineup like the one we've got, but I accept that might not be to everyone's taste or give the best results.

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10 minutes ago, KyGuy123 said:

Miller is the core of the core. Funny how at 28 we are saying he is out of the age group for the “next” core. I believe the best move is to sell high and I feel the reason for that is the lack of previous management decisions on letting players walk or play past their prime. If you can get a couple first round picks and use the money towards a poor man’s version in UFA you do that as they are pretty much equal in age. The picks obviously go towards another younger trade chip or drafting for the future core.

 

Asset management 

I tend to use the word "Core" in Mller's case as he most definitely is at this moment. There should be no argument on that. But will he be mid-term on his next contract?

That is the issue, and that is the gamble. He will be 30 at his next contract. How much does he want, and for how long? 

 

That is the question. If he wants $6,000,000 for the next 5 years.............sign him up, but I seriously doubt that will happen!

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5 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

I'm happy to talk nice but that particular point had been covered multiple times in this thread and others.  In the end, we agree on what the situation is and that's good.  None of this is to say that we might want to re-jig where we spend our money in the lineup, but that's a choice, not a necessity.  Personally, I like a run and gun lineup like the one we've got, but I accept that might not be to everyone's taste or give the best results.

Oh, I like it too, but would we be even better with a solid return? This is the question I ask my self every time this discussion comes up. Personally, I would rather keep Miller over Boeser, because of our RW depth, as much as anything.....................but here is the question that keeps popping up to me..........

 

Is

keeping Boeser and Miller's trade return

greater than

keeping Miller and Boeser's return?

 

It is my biggest question........................which one is better for the team short and long term?

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14 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

I'm happy to talk nice but that particular point had been covered multiple times in this thread and others.  In the end, we agree on what the situation is and that's good.  None of this is to say that we might want to re-jig where we spend our money in the lineup, but that's a choice, not a necessity.  Personally, I like a run and gun lineup like the one we've got, but I accept that might not be to everyone's taste or give the best results.

But the question is really not answered yet...........

 

Who do we re-sign, and for how much? 

 

Bettman stated there will be a 1 million raise in cap......................is that with consideration of Covid, and any closing down? I don't think so, so it is all up in the air IMO

 

Until these are all answered, we really do not know

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sure miller is a core player right now but is he a core player in the future when he inevitably hits the age of 30 where player slowly starts to decline or in some cases drops off a cliff? how many players in the NHL have we seen signs a big contract at the age of 29-30 and not living up to it not even half way thru the contract? it's too big of a risk and not a risk the canucks are built to be able to withstand.. unless you can get miller to take like a 7mil aav contract which is unlikely i prolly explore moving him for a legit top 4 dman or a 1st ++ that we can use to potentially get a top 4 dman. Miller is important no doubt but i don't think the team falls apart if miller is gone. 

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