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Miller is a core player

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On 12/20/2021 at 3:10 AM, tas said:

the last 6 stanley cup winners had 8, 4, 9, 6, 10, and 7 players aged 30+, 

It truly baffles me when people say 30 is to old yet the guy you quoted thinks he will get 9 on a 6+ year contract, he completely contradicts himself. So we shouldn't sign him because he's to old for our team but a team chasing a cup he thinks would pay 9×6.

So I guess that means we should just do s rebuild if we're not going to push for a cup in JTs first 4-5 years of his new contract since he will still be a high level player from 30-34.

These next 6 years our window should be wide open with the core we have, losing him make us less likely to win, who cares about what he or the team will look like when he's 35-36, a million different things could happen and if we win a cup, who gives a sh*t 

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On 12/23/2021 at 3:38 PM, Alienhuggyflow said:

It truly baffles me when people say 30 is to old yet the guy you quoted thinks he will get 9 on a 6+ year contract, he completely contradicts himself. So we shouldn't sign him because he's to old for our team but a team chasing a cup he thinks would pay 9×6.

So I guess that means we should just do s rebuild if we're not going to push for a cup in JTs first 4-5 years of his new contract since he will still be a high level player from 30-34.

These next 6 years our window should be wide open with the core we have, losing him make us less likely to win, who cares about what he or the team will look like when he's 35-36, a million different things could happen and if we win a cup, who gives a sh*t 

lol so if he doesn't win a cup and starts declining at 32? where's that 6 year cup opening window? u mean another 4 years worth of anchor and permanately closing the window into a new rebuild? you compared Miller to playing well into his 30s like crosby malkin stamkos lol the best player of their generation. it's inevitable player will start declining once they past 30 just a matter of how fast or how slow. you talk a bunch of crap like feeding words into my mouth i think we need to win with a roster full of elc or rfa under 25. when miller contract expires in 2023 the only core players we have that's only 25 is hughes hoglander podz. but you make it sound like 80% of our rosters are young. you keep brining up tampa bay lol stamkos and hedman won the cup when they were 29-30 but the biggest contributor to their cup win were only 24-28 at the time lol. stamkos would not have won the cup if it wasn't for kucherov point vasilevski? so which stanley cup winning roster in the last 10+ years have a 30+ year old as their highest paid best player and led the team in points and won them a stanley cup? the answer is none. ovechkin is the closest. can you list me a bunch of great value contract signed at the age of 30 where the players played well and earned their contract till 34? dont list me a bunch of contract signed well before 30s at max 7-8 years? all the tampa bay big contracts were signed when their players are between 25-27 not 30+ so they are pretty much getting the player in their prime for 3/4 of it and the contract is done before they are completely declined to the point of irrelevant. 

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56 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol so if he doesn't win a cup and starts declining at 32? where's that 6 year cup opening window? u mean another 4 years worth of anchor and permanately closing the window into a new rebuild? you compared Miller to playing well into his 30s like crosby malkin stamkos lol the best player of their generation. it's inevitable player will start declining once they past 30 just a matter of how fast or how slow. you talk a bunch of crap like feeding words into my mouth i think we need to win with a roster full of elc or rfa under 25. when miller contract expires in 2023 the only core players we have that's only 25 is hughes hoglander podz. but you make it sound like 80% of our rosters are young. you keep brining up tampa bay lol stamkos and hedman won the cup when they were 29-30 but the biggest contributor to their cup win were only 24-28 at the time lol. stamkos would not have won the cup if it wasn't for kucherov point vasilevski? so which stanley cup winning roster in the last 10+ years have a 30+ year old as their highest paid best player and led the team in points and won them a stanley cup? the answer is none. ovechkin is the closest. can you list me a bunch of great value contract signed at the age of 30 where the players played well and earned their contract till 34? dont list me a bunch of contract signed well before 30s at max 7-8 years? all the tampa bay big contracts were signed when their players are between 25-27 not 30+ so they are pretty much getting the player in their prime for 3/4 of it and the contract is done before they are completely declined to the point of irrelevant. 

One question.  Are you one of the people who fawned over Tyler Toffoli?  And Tanev and Markstrom or complained about them not being re-signed?    Crosby and Malkin, Phil the Thrill Khris Letang and MAF...For the record i agree on Miller ... too much term could get tough for us.    Still need vets ... Chara and Thomas too 

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1 hour ago, IBatch said:

One question.  Are you one of the people who fawned over Tyler Toffoli?  And Tanev and Markstrom or complained about them not being re-signed?    Crosby and Malkin, Phil the Thrill Khris Letang and MAF...For the record i agree on Miller ... too much term could get tough for us.    Still need vets ... Chara and Thomas too 

i'm not against signing vets i'm against signing vets to massive life home run contract that takes them all the way to retirement if miller were to get that contract when he was 27 28 i prolly have no issue with it as he'd be noly 34-35 when it's over and even if he drops off it'd only be a couple year risk vs he's signing a 6-8 year contract that takes him to 36-38 and we risk having more than half of his contract/term as anchor?

 

toffoli i'm a bit sad since he signed for a good value. tanev i'm disappointed as i think his cap hit is very reasonable and he didnt' have much injury concern the last couple of season in vancouver. Markstrom i'm indifferent about as i was high on demko to replace him even before the bubble anyways. i don't mind having the vets on the team but i mind if the vet is going to be your highest paid player with a contract that will take them to retirement. 

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2 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

i'm not against signing vets i'm against signing vets to massive life home run contract that takes them all the way to retirement if miller were to get that contract when he was 27 28 i prolly have no issue with it as he'd be noly 34-35 when it's over and even if he drops off it'd only be a couple year risk vs he's signing a 6-8 year contract that takes him to 36-38 and we risk having more than half of his contract/term as anchor?

 

toffoli i'm a bit sad since he signed for a good value. tanev i'm disappointed as i think his cap hit is very reasonable and he didnt' have much injury concern the last couple of season in vancouver. Markstrom i'm indifferent about as i was high on demko to replace him even before the bubble anyways. i don't mind having the vets on the team but i mind if the vet is going to be your highest paid player with a contract that will take them to retirement. 

Miller is clearly one of the top 5 centres in the league.  He’s heavy, mean, ppg, hyper compete, in his prime, and on a steal of a contract for this year and next.  If we do trade this guy it will be for a KING’s friggin’ ransom!!!  Only a couple mplete moron idiot loser (cleRly a fan of another team) would suggest otherwise.  

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7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Miller is clearly one of the top 5 centres in the league.  He’s heavy, mean, ppg, hyper compete, in his prime, and on a steal of a contract for this year and next.  If we do trade this guy it will be for a KING’s friggin’ ransom!!!  Only a couple mplete moron idiot loser (cleRly a fan of another team) would suggest otherwise.  

well according to you Hughes is the best defenseman ever in the league since Bobby Orr and Demko is pure trash as he was the reason we were so bad and couldn't win games when Green was here so we ain't winning a cup as long as we have demko 

 

i mean come on miller is better than mcdavid crosby malkin draisaitl mckinnon aho barkov matthews tavares. who wouldn't want Miller over any of those guys ya? no one is complaining about millers current contract. it's his next one that's the issue. well if he's top 5 like u said better than all those players.. then better break the bank as he's going to be in the 9-10mil range lol

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17 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

well according to you Hughes is the best defenseman ever in the league since Bobby Orr and Demko is pure trash as he was the reason we were so bad and couldn't win games when Green was here so we ain't winning a cup as long as we have demko 

 

i mean come on miller is better than mcdavid crosby malkin draisaitl mckinnon aho barkov matthews tavares. who wouldn't want Miller over any of those guys ya? no one is complaining about millers current contract. it's his next one that's the issue. well if he's top 5 like u said better than all those players.. then better break the bank as he's going to be in the 9-10mil range lol

And I’m a Canuck’s fan?  What team are you a fan of?  

Seriously I don’t at all get this live you (and others) have for other teams.  Why even come to this board?  Just go to those other teams’ boards, no?  And if your answers is you cheer for more than just our team, then you’re not really a true fan.  Before all these computers, in a bar, we’d either cheer for our team or get a nose bleed.  I guess I just don’t understand you young fans, who can change you allegiance so easily.  Maybe you’ve got it right?  Just pick the top teams every year and cheer for them!  It’s that easy.  

 

And you know what?  I didn’t even really read your post.  I know you’re not really a true fan, so responded with that assumption.  

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8 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And I’m a Canuck’s fan?  What team are you a fan of?  

Seriously I don’t at all get this live you (and others) have for other teams.  Why even come to this board?  Just go to those other teams’ boards, no?  And if your answers is you cheer for more than just our team, then you’re not really a true fan.  Before all these computers, in a bar, we’d either cheer for our team or get a nose bleed.  I guess I just don’t understand you young fans, who can change you allegiance so easily.  Maybe you’ve got it right?  Just pick the top teams every year and cheer for them!  It’s that easy.  

 

And you know what?  I didn’t even really read your post.  I know you’re not really a true fan, so responded with that assumption.  

lol please u were bashing demko earlier in the season when we gave up multiple 7 goals games. Being a fan doesn't have to be a blind homer that everything the team do you must agree with. so i'm not a true fan if i'm not in love with every single player on this team or hype every one of them to be the next gretzky? coz you were definitely calling demko trash in one of ur post. and honestly i don't really care about a homer that makes stupid assumptions and comments telling ppl u ain't a fan or u ain't this u ain't that. at the end of the day you and i or nobody and no one gives a f what u or i think lol

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9 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

lol please u were bashing demko earlier in the season when we gave up multiple 7 goals games. Being a fan doesn't have to be a blind homer that everything the team do you must agree with. so i'm not a true fan if i'm not in love with every single player on this team or hype every one of them to be the next gretzky? coz you were definitely calling demko trash in one of ur post. and honestly i don't really care about a homer that makes stupid assumptions and comments telling ppl u ain't a fan or u ain't this u ain't that. at the end of the day you and i or nobody and no one gives a f what u or i think lol

Hey i care what Alf says!   And even you but not as much.   Anyone one this site except for a couple obvious imposters.   Alf is doing his penance on Demko.  Leave him alone he's a gem.   And Merry Christmas is the time to be jolly! 

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9 hours ago, Alflives said:

And I’m a Canuck’s fan?  What team are you a fan of?  

Seriously I don’t at all get this live you (and others) have for other teams.  Why even come to this board?  Just go to those other teams’ boards, no?  And if your answers is you cheer for more than just our team, then you’re not really a true fan.  Before all these computers, in a bar, we’d either cheer for our team or get a nose bleed.  I guess I just don’t understand you young fans, who can change you allegiance so easily.  Maybe you’ve got it right?  Just pick the top teams every year and cheer for them!  It’s that easy.  

 

And you know what?  I didn’t even really read your post.  I know you’re not really a true fan, so responded with that assumption.  

Nice post Alf.   I remember those days too.   Going to a bar with a big screen TV or projector was really the best way to watch a hockey game in the playoffs. And you would have to be prepared to take one on the chin if you were in enemy territory wearing Canuck colours and cheering them on ... say like a Calgary bar in 1994.    I've seen fist fights amongst fans too, just because they argued themselves into it lol.   I know your a true Canuck fan through and through.    And would never in a million years, have a second team, the closest thing would be respect for old rivalries, and even those come with some hate still.     If anyone does have a "side piece" team ... maybe think about why you would.   Makes zero sense, like having the hottest and best wife/spouse you could ever hope for and cheating anyways.    Shameful stuff. 

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17 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Nice post Alf.   I remember those days too.   Going to a bar with a big screen TV or projector was really the best way to watch a hockey game in the playoffs. And you would have to be prepared to take one on the chin if you were in enemy territory wearing Canuck colours and cheering them on ... say like a Calgary bar in 1994.    I've seen fist fights amongst fans too, just because they argued themselves into it lol.   I know your a true Canuck fan through and through.    And would never in a million years, have a second team, the closest thing would be respect for old rivalries, and even those come with some hate still.     If anyone does have a "side piece" team ... maybe think about why you would.   Makes zero sense, like having the hottest and best wife/spouse you could ever hope for and cheating anyways.    Shameful stuff. 

Quebec Nordiques Montréal Canadiens games. Those games ripped families apart to the core. Divorces and violence was a regular thing back then.

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2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Nice post Alf.   I remember those days too.   Going to a bar with a big screen TV or projector was really the best way to watch a hockey game in the playoffs. And you would have to be prepared to take one on the chin if you were in enemy territory wearing Canuck colours and cheering them on ... say like a Calgary bar in 1994.    I've seen fist fights amongst fans too, just because they argued themselves into it lol.   I know your a true Canuck fan through and through.    And would never in a million years, have a second team, the closest thing would be respect for old rivalries, and even those come with some hate still.     If anyone does have a "side piece" team ... maybe think about why you would.   Makes zero sense, like having the hottest and best wife/spouse you could ever hope for and cheating anyways.    Shameful stuff. 

I don’t know about that Batch. Canucks have been my team since they came into the league but I had a soft spot for the Habs that ran for a couple of years. It was all about the Habs players I had followed. I can watch players on other teams and admire their abilities. When the Canucks have bowed out on seasons in the past I could cheer for other teams as they challenged for the Cup. I like the Oilers, Jets, Av’s and Islanders. No, I don’t rank them close to the Canucks. 

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On 12/17/2021 at 2:30 AM, Jaimito said:

Really neat mic'd footage.  You can hear their interactions. JT is a big leader on the ice and bench. 

 

 

 

Finally got a chance to watch, and listen, to this.

No way I want Miller traded at all now that I see what he's like with his teammates and coaches.

Come on JT; sign at a team-reasonable, cup-winning rate and lets build that perennial contender!

 

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6 hours ago, IBatch said:

Nice post Alf.   I remember those days too.   Going to a bar with a big screen TV or projector was really the best way to watch a hockey game in the playoffs. And you would have to be prepared to take one on the chin if you were in enemy territory wearing Canuck colours and cheering them on ... say like a Calgary bar in 1994.    I've seen fist fights amongst fans too, just because they argued themselves into it lol.   I know your a true Canuck fan through and through.    And would never in a million years, have a second team, the closest thing would be respect for old rivalries, and even those come with some hate still.     If anyone does have a "side piece" team ... maybe think about why you would.   Makes zero sense, like having the hottest and best wife/spouse you could ever hope for and cheating anyways.    Shameful stuff. 

As a Canuck fan, you haven't lived til you've gone to a Canucks game in Calgary and given as good as you've got from their inbred fans.  Did it a lot in the early 90s with the Bure/Linden team and it was a blast.  There's always lots of us, and we find each other!  It's as good an invasion experience as Blue Jays fans going to Seattle. 

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Miller is 100% a core player.  Trade him and you'll only be looking for someone like him, and they don't grow on trees.  So if he'll re-sign at 8M or less, get it done.  if he won't, yes, we can't let him walk for nothing so trade him.  The question would be when?  While he probably has maximum value going into this year's trade deadline, we might still be in the running for the playoffs then or management might still be evaluating, which would prevent us from moving him.  Plus, it's hard (but not impossible) for a contender to take on his contract and surrender the players we'd want at that time of year.  We'd need a top young player and a couple of top prospects coming back and could retain salary for the remainder of this year to make it work out cap-wise.  I'm not sure how many contenders have those pieces, let alone a willingness to give them up.  A deal would be easier to do before the draft when teams are overhauling their rosters and more of them might be in the mix.  That's when I'd expect to see any deal.  But I really hope we don't:  this guy is the heartbeat of our team.

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On 12/23/2021 at 3:24 PM, Alienhuggyflow said:

How the hell am I overating prospects.

Klimovich, Woo and Lockwood are virtually locks to make it, in what role is TBD.

 

I find the fact you think JT is to old at 30 to be part of the core, how long have you been following hockey? A simple search will show you the average age of cup winners is 30. 

 

I guess Sid, Malkin, Stamkos and on and on and on are to old as well.

No team has ever won a cup with an average age of 25 but teams win all the time with a mix of age groups.

The average age is closer to 28, even that 2020 TBL cup team with Stamkos was on average 27.7 yrs old. And even then you're basing this off teams that have generational greats like Crosby, Malkin on them. If Petey and Hughes were anywhere close to how dominant these guys were I'd agree we have some leeway here, but we don't.

 

https://novacapsfans.com/2020/09/28/a-look-at-the-average-age-of-all-of-this-years-nhl-playoff-teams/

 

The average age of the Penguins in their back-to-back cups approaches 30, but you're really going to base our future hopes on statistical anomaly? 

image.png.e27693aacbc1223eceb1920ca181ff7d.png

 

Last cup winners

 

2019 - St Louis Blues - 27.65 years old

2018 - Washington Capitals - 27.64 years old

 

The oldest average aged team to win the cup was in fact 30. it's a young man's game, and it's getting younger. 

 

 

Quote

 

You are also way off on what JT will get especially if he signs for 6+ years. Adding extra years past the age of 35 are often given to lower the cap hit. 7-7.5 on a 7 year deal would make sense but even at 8-8.5 that's 2.5-3 million that would be needed since the cap will be up 2 million and Holtbys buyout Loungos penalty and  Halaks bonuses will be off the book the latter being replaced  replaced by an elc they can re-sign him without making any moves. 

 

You realize Hamonic will be off the books and Pearson and Dickenson will have one season left right? .

The fact you think those contracts are a negative, agsin tells me you are the type that thinks only under 25 have value.

Guys like Pearson and Dickenson are always coveted, especially on contracts with 1 year left.

You really should look around and see for yourself how often those types are traded for.

As for Hoglander unless he becomes a 60 point player next season he probably gets bridged.

The cap is expected to go back to pre- pandemic estimates  for the 2024-2025 season which even before the new TV deal was expected to be close to 90 million. Gary has already said as much.

I don't mean to be rude but if you think that if the team is a contender in 18 months and Bo, Brock and JT want to stay and JR won't be able to clear or will choose to let them walk instead of moving out players that aren't as important then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Every year with some people it's all doom and gloom yet every year GMS manage to find the cap to keep the players they prioritize.

 

Ps. Nobody will care if the last few years of JTs contract sucks if he ends being part of a team that wins a cup.

Every GM uses term on the older guys to lower the cap hit.

 

 

 

 

I think here, we need to project what we think JT will become. Pittsburgh made the hard choice of walking away from Prime Sutter and used the assets we gave them to win two cups, and Tampa did the same with JT to swap our 1st for Coleman to win their 2 cups (seeing a trend here?). Nucks need to take the fan goggles off and honestly ask themselves if JT at a higher cap rate in 2-3 years can co-exist with Petey, Boeser, Bo, Hogs, Podz under the cap and still have OEL on the books.

 

People will care if JT plays slightly above average but ends up costing us Hughes or Petey down the line due to cap constraints.

 

Unless you are willing to trade Boeser and keep Miller (which on the timeline of cup winners and playoff contenders, Miller is on the wrong side of IMO), then it's doable. 

 

Quote

But na let's let our best forward and leader leave, since ppg all situation players are easy to replace and won't help win a cup since only players under 25 do that.

The fact that he's that valuable means we can get a king's ransom for him, and reload our depleted prospect cupboards. The value he brings here can be cost controlled elite prospects that can make us compete for the next 4-6 years rather than only a window of 2-3. We need to build sustainability here, not a one and done bubble run team of the past.

 

I'll be clear here, I'm not saying Trade Miller, but there's a solid case to do it. Do you keep him over Boeser or Bo then? Because one of them has to go. Unless we are content icing half a defense or somehow have them not take a raise. The players who age like fine wine into their 30s are considered the elite of the elite (Ovechkin, Bergeron, Sid), do you consider JT in that class? As a Canucks fan I'd love it to be true. As a hockey fan, I just don't see it.

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17 hours ago, Alflives said:

And I’m a Canuck’s fan?  What team are you a fan of?  

Seriously I don’t at all get this live you (and others) have for other teams.  Why even come to this board?  Just go to those other teams’ boards, no?  And if your answers is you cheer for more than just our team, then you’re not really a true fan.  Before all these computers, in a bar, we’d either cheer for our team or get a nose bleed.  I guess I just don’t understand you young fans, who can change you allegiance so easily.  Maybe you’ve got it right?  Just pick the top teams every year and cheer for them!  It’s that easy.  

 

And you know what?  I didn’t even really read your post.  I know you’re not really a true fan, so responded with that assumption.  

An analogy my wacky brain likes to use is the Matrix when Morpheus talks about the agents haha.

 

Yes, the agents are super powered, they have super speed, but their strength and speed are still based in a world that is built on rules.

 

The Canucks are my favorite team, bar none, but they still operate in a world that is based on rules, such as salary cap constraints, drafting, contracts, trades, prospect pool, assets. All these have to basically come together perfectly for a team to be a contender.

 

And we as fans who watch hockey see how teams that succeed in recent years were constructed and that the Canucks have not been doing what those teams have been doing the last few years, and in some cases, even left holding the bag while those teams went on to win championships.  and we are concerned. And a lot of what us 'doom and gloomers' feared came to pass. We've yet to see new management do anything yet, so until something happens to show a shfit in that trend, the concerns will still be there.

 

I guess in short, we need a Neo. And cap circumvention ::D

 

 

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3 hours ago, Boudrias said:

I don’t know about that Batch. Canucks have been my team since they came into the league but I had a soft spot for the Habs that ran for a couple of years. It was all about the Habs players I had followed. I can watch players on other teams and admire their abilities. When the Canucks have bowed out on seasons in the past I could cheer for other teams as they challenged for the Cup. I like the Oilers, Jets, Av’s and Islanders. No, I don’t rank them close to the Canucks. 

I grew up with MTL/NYI/Oilers dynasty's and got caught up in that - especially the Oilers ...but for sure it was the players not the teams.   So get it.   And also get the older folks that only had six teams to cheer on and later the Canucks.   Also get that once we are out maybe the  cheer for the Canadian teams, or ex-players teams.  But don't get that anyone has more then one team either.  Whatever floats anyone's boat i guess.  

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On 12/23/2021 at 3:24 PM, Alienhuggyflow said:

How the hell am I overating prospects.

Klimovich, Woo and Lockwood are virtually locks to make it, in what role is TBD.

 

I find the fact you think JT is to old at 30 to be part of the core, how long have you been following hockey? A simple search will show you the average age of cup winners is 30.

I guess Sid, Malkin, Stamkos and on and on and on are to old as well.

No team has ever won a cup with an average age of 25 but teams win all the time with a mix of age groups.

You are also way off on what JT will get especially if he signs for 6+ years. Adding extra years past the age of 35 are often given to lower the cap hit. 7-7.5 on a 7 year deal would make sense but even at 8-8.5 that's 2.5-3 million that would be needed since the cap will be up 2 million and Holtbys buyout Loungos penalty and  Halaks bonuses will be off the book the latter being replaced  replaced by an elc they can re-sign him without making any moves. 

 

You realize Hamonic will be off the books and Pearson and Dickenson will have one season left right? .

The fact you think those contracts are a negative, agsin tells me you are the type that thinks only under 25 have value.

Guys like Pearson and Dickenson are always coveted, especially on contracts with 1 year left.

You really should look around and see for yourself how often those types are traded for.

As for Hoglander unless he becomes a 60 point player next season he probably gets bridged.

The cap is expected to go back to pre- pandemic estimates  for the 2024-2025 season which even before the new TV deal was expected to be close to 90 million. Gary has already said as much.

I don't mean to be rude but if you think that if the team is a contender in 18 months and Bo, Brock and JT want to stay and JR won't be able to clear or will choose to let them walk instead of moving out players that aren't as important then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Every year with some people it's all doom and gloom yet every year GMS manage to find the cap to keep the players they prioritize.

 

Ps. Nobody will care if the last few years of JTs contract sucks if he ends being part of a team that wins a cup.

Every GM uses term on the older guys to lower the cap hit.

But na let's let our best forward and leader leave, since ppg all situation players are easy to replace and won't help win a cup since only players under 25 do that.

 

 

 

 

I’d love for JT to remain a Canuck. I’m more curious about how it’s going to work. Will he prefer term more than the money? Or will he want more money and less term? Or both? Because if he hits free agency, he’s probably going to be able to get both. Something the Canucks might not be able to offer. And if they do offer that, what happens to Bo, and Brock? 

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