Miller is a core player

[Coconuts]

7 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

Yea. I tend to agree with you in your assessment about Miller. 

 

Look. I like him as a player as well. He's the heart and soul of the team (this season), and he's been producing. But he's going to want to get paid as well right? And I think management probably knows that and is assuming that he's going to be asking for a pretty hefty raise from the 5.25M he's currently making. 

 

Is Bo going to take less than what he's currently making? Not likely. Probably 6.5-7M for the foreseeable future. That's going to bring Horvat well into his thirties. 

 

What about Petey? I mean, it looks like he's coming around offensively, and there's no question in my mind that he's going to produce for the rest of this bridge deal he's on. He's likely going to want to get paid accordingly as well. 

 

What about Brock? His QO is 7.5M. 

 

Your right in that, if we allocate so much of the money and cap to our top six, what about the rest of the roster? Do these guys want to win here in Van or what? 

 

I think his number ends up starting at 7-8 somewhere, and he'll likely want term and trade protection. That ain't a deal I'm comfortable handing out to a guy who'll be 30 sooner than later. Do players suddenly drop off at 30? Not all of em, but for most the early 30's are where they'll begin to fall off. Miller's great now, no question, but I don't want to be paying a player 7-8M down the road and not have them be worth that money. 

 

I see Bo taking less, but I think his number will still surprise some folks. Unless he extends sooner than later he'll have being a pending UFA in his back pocket as well come negotiation time. But Bo's a guy I think we've gotta keep. We don't have another player in our system, professionally or as a prospect, who can replace what he brings to this team. He contributes offensively, he leads, and my god does he ever win faceoffs. He's no Kesler, sure, but he's not gonna hurt you too much defensively. Good luck replacing him via UFA or trade, it'll cost you about as much as it'd take to re-sign him or more. He's a legitimate top 6 center, and he's our captain to boot. 

 

I dunno about Petey, he's still a bit of a wildcard, but he's got a couple years to figure things out. He's quietly producing but hasn't looked dominant, but he's young enough that he should still bounce back. Tough to say what he ends up making, but I think he's worth being patient with. He's shown us what he's capable of. 

 

If Brock continues to play the way he has I don't think too many folks will be complaining about his QO. Wouldn't be surprised to see him extended before it gets to that point. Brock was arguably our best forward last season, I think his performance thus far should be taken with a grain of salt. 

 

As for whether players want to win in Vancouver, I can't answer that. You can be given all the lip service in the world but if they change their mind or want out it is what it is. Never thought I'd see Edler in another uniform but here we are. As for what the roster needs? A 3c is the obvious hole, our D could definitely use some help. Myers will be 32 in what.. February? Two years out he's 34. Hamonic is likely gone sooner than later as well. We could definitely get younger on D. 

 

 

[NHL97OneTimer]

5 minutes ago, Bobby James said:

I think almost everyone would agree with the original post in regards to how good and important he is to the team. 

 

The only question that needs to be figured out still is the cap. I don't believe it will be possible to fit everyone in under the next contract. So I think the team will need to pick 2 of Miller, Boeser and Horvat. 

 

Horvat I think as your captain you have to continue with him, he also likely takes the best value contract out of the 3. 

 

So Boeser or Miller? Different players for sure, but both great although there is no doubt Miller has had an overall better season than Boeser this year. If I had to make the choice though, I think you gamble and go with Boeser. His age does unfortunately give an advantage over JT and I think Miller is literally in his prime right now. Which is amazing and he is playing so well for Vancouver, but I think Brock only gets better still and that fits with what this team is trying to become. 

 

I will say regardless of what decision is made and who is gone. We absolutely need to try and get value for the player (please no walking away for nothing). Picks and prospects are important if this organization wants to succeed over longer periods of time.  

I think they'll just have to move one player and that player is likely Brock.  I agree, keep Miller if we can.  When the team isn't performing, he's still pushing hard.  This team needs his leadership. 

 

Brock may be on a streak right now but he's definitely the guy with value to trade and he's less well-rounded than the other guys.  

[N4ZZY]

10 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Yup, Demko's def helped us out given how thin our D is right now. Happened tonight in the 2nd and 3rd, we won but we certainly didn't look great for much of the game. He's been on a heater, but he's masking some of our defensive play. Yes, the goaltender is part of the team like any other player but it's worth acknowledging. 

 

Miller would be great if we were on the cusp of contending, this team ain't a contender. Rutherford says it's a roster with holes, it is. The future is Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. Hopefully Horvat, maybe Boeser. I don't see the future being Miller, Myers, or Hamonic. The latter two will likely be gone in a year or two once their deals expire, Miller is likely traded imo. He's closest to his peak at almost 30, the rest of our core is younger and it's those players we should be building around. Ship him out, let him chase a cup, let him get paid, bring in a big haul. This is all my opinion, but I don't see his age and playing ability lining up with our window, which I think is at least 2-3 years away at the earliest.

 

It's tough, because I know a lot of fans love him as a player, but in my eyes no single player is more important than the team's future and competitive window. I don't care if folks agree with me on that, some won't, but that's how I see it. Could I end up being wrong? Absolutely, but if we miraculously pull a cup out of our ass I certainly won't be complaining. 

I agree that no single player is more important than the team as a whole. 

 

I think the smart decision would be to trade Miller at the deadline for a huge haul that'll help both present and future, which I think he could get for the team. The team can't be entirely made up of 20 year olds. Gotta have some veterans in the line up as well, but they have to be the right kinds (like JT). Hamonic to me has been such a huge disappointment. Myers has been a mixed bag. He's been good, very good actually, recently. 

 

For me, the core and the future of this team are Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Höglander, Podkolzin, Bo and Brock. Everyone else is interchangeable parts and pieces. But those 7 players you have to keep moving forward into their contending window. 

 

 

[wildcam]

33 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So, trying to pay league average for all 3 categories, looks something like this............................................................

 

Forwards...................50 Million

 

Defense.....................25 Million

 

Goalies.......................6.5 Million 

                                   ========

Total                          81.5 million

 

So, If we pay Miller, Horvat, Boeser and Pettersson all 7.5 million per x 7 years, we have 20 million to pay the next 9 forwards

Currently we are paying the other 9 forwards 16, million = 47 million

 

Currently we are paying  21 million for Hughes, OEL, and Myers

The other 3 are paid 6.3 for Hamonic, Poolman, and Schenn = 27.3 million

 

Goalies are costing us 6.5 million

 

Total..............................80.8 Million (sure the cap will go up 1 million a year, but only 1 million a year)

 

 

 

So how do we fill in a much needed RHD, get a defensive center, and what happens when in 2 years Hoglander, and Podkolzin come off their ELC's?

 

Again, the budget does not fit the players, and we are being held up by Demko to some extent, and the same CDCers, do not have the pertinence to build the team properly.

 

Yes, I love Miller as a player, but he will be 29 before next season, and he does not fit our core, and his next contract is too expensive for a 30 year old

 

Sell high and reap the rewards............sorry people.............nice player, but something has to give!

 

I am not saying what............you tell me!

I agree 100% we will have to make a very big decision on some forwards..

Miller will bring back the big RD and draft pick..

Motte will be traded at trade deadline UFA this summer Lockwood is ready to replace Motte..

Cap will only go up 1 million each of the next 3 yrs….So don’t be disappointed hockey trade has to be made in next 6–18 months..

[*Buzzsaw*]

First, Miller's contract has him with the team till the end of the 2022/2023 season.

 

So there is no reason to trade him now.

 

Second, one of the strengths of the current roster is they have three very good point producing centers in Horvat, Miller and Pettersson.  Most teams are luck to have two good centers.  Giving up Miller is giving up an advantage.

 

Better to wait till January 2023 and assess then.

 

Personally if it is a question of Boeser or Miller, I would go with Miller.  Miller can do a lot of things for the team... Boeser is limited.  A center is more valuable most of the time.  Plus a lot of other teams would be willing to pay a lot of a goalscorer like Boeser if he continues to produce as he is doing now... as he is capable of.  The ideal would be to trade Boeser for a big top 4 D plus another good sized 5/6 D.

 

If Podkolzin and Hoglander continue to develop, then you have them along with Miller, Pettersson, Garland and Horvat as point producers... they can take up the slack of Boeser leaving.

 

But anyway, what we need is time to see what develops.... a lot could happen between now and the end of Miller's contract.

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, N4ZZY said:

I agree that no single player is more important than the team as a whole. 

 

I think the smart decision would be to trade Miller at the deadline for a huge haul that'll help both present and future, which I think he could get for the team. The team can't be entirely made up of 20 year olds. Gotta have some veterans in the line up as well, but they have to be the right kinds (like JT). Hamonic to me has been such a huge disappointment. Myers has been a mixed bag. He's been good, very good actually, recently. 

 

For me, the core and the future of this team are Pettersson, Hughes, Demko, Höglander, Podkolzin, Bo and Brock. Everyone else is interchangeable parts and pieces. But those 7 players you have to keep moving forward into their contending window. 

 

 

I can't remember who said it, but someone here said it a little while back. You need guys like Miller on your team, but they don't have to be Miller. Having Garland, a guy who shows up game in and game out and who plays with similar heart and drive, is part of why I'm fine with moving Miller out. There are players out there who play with talent, heart and tenacity, those aren't things unique to Miller. 

 

I'd move him at the deadline, his value will never be higher than it is now. His 5.25M contract is great value for what he brings, and whoever trades for him gets an additional year to take a run at things. He doesn't have to be traded for picks, for futures. There are plenty of great prospects out there we could use, but assets can be flipped, there's no reason we couldn't use what we got for Miller to try and acquire someone or multiple someone's from other teams. 

 

You do need vets, but even Horvat's a vet at this point. Myer's will be here a while yet, Garland is a special player. OEL ain't going anywhere, Dickinson is likely around for a while yet. Poolman too. We've got vets, it's about getting the right pieces. 

 

As for the core, I agree. Those are the players we should be building around. 

[Coconuts]

6 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

First, Miller's contract has him with the team till the end of the 2022/2023 season.

 

So there is no reason to trade him now.

 

Second, one of the strengths of the current roster is they have three very good point producing centers in Horvat, Miller and Pettersson.  Most teams are luck to have two good centers.  Giving up Miller is giving up an advantage.

 

Better to wait till January 2023 and assess then.

 

Personally if it is a question of Boeser or Miller, I would go with Miller.  Miller can do a lot of things for the team... Boeser is limited.  A center is more valuable most of the time.  Plus a lot of other teams would be willing to pay a lot of a goalscorer like Boeser if he continues to produce as he is doing now... as he is capable of.  The ideal would be to trade Boeser for a big top 4 D plus another good sized 5/6 D.

 

If Podkolzin and Hoglander continue to develop, then you have them along with Miller, Pettersson, Garland and Horvat as point producers... they can take up the slack of Boeser leaving.

 

But anyway, what we need is time to see what develops.... a lot could happen between now and the end of Miller's contract.

There are reasons though, as mentioned in my other post Miller's value will never be higher than it currently is for the Canucks in regards to being a potential trade chip. Whoever trades for him gets him for two seasons at 5.25M, if we wait til January 2023 and re-asses we've lost value sitting on an asset we're still not sure about. Who's to say Miller doesn't take a step back as early as next season? Wouldn't be the first guy. 

 

It's a tough job, but management needs to identify the core they want to move forward with sooner than later and take a hard look at what they want to do with the rest of the roster. Could be Boeser, could be Miller. Could be any number of guys, but sooner or later something's got to give and we all know it. 

[Metal Face Doom]

Pay this man his money.

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, Metal Face Doom said:

Pay this man his money.

you build a top 10 playoff team after you pay him the money

 

Especially without using top draft picks and young prospects

 

It is too easy to say what you are saying.....................

 

"IF" there was no cap......no problem

 

So, show me how you do it!

[Devron]

This is basically me when I hear things like something’s gotta give or someone needs to moved or traded. Especially a player like Miller that is 1.5 years away from being a FA. Keep the proposals coming for the next year though it’s what some of us do.

 

[Jaimito]

Really neat mic'd footage.  You can hear their interactions. JT is a big leader on the ice and bench. 

 

 

 

[Phat Fingers]

Miller is showing Bo Horvat what being a captain looks like.  
 

This guy is the team leader.  
 

Bo is too, love Bo, but Miller has way more fire and grit or did early when the team was flailing.  

[Phat Fingers]

9 minutes ago, Jaimito said:

Really neat mic'd footage.  You can hear their interactions. JT is a big leader on the ice and bench. 

 

 

 

Best mic night in a while.  
 

most vocal guy on the bench, team leader in points for 2.5 seasons, takes face offs, blocks shots, plays PK and PP.  

 

so exactly why would he not be resigned? And why wouldn’t the team go for a 5-7 year term for a guy that will always be valued for his leader ship and complete game.  
 

Miller is playing better each year.  Has he peaked?  He has the physical tools and record to show that he has lots of playing years ahead of him, no red flags and I have to think, we would taking a major step back in trading or losing Miller for any reason.  
 

JT Miller is the role model for all current Canuck Forwards.  He even is coaching Pettersson on his one timer in Pre game.  
 

How good can Bo be with JT Miller?  What type of influence can JT Miller have on Podz?  
 

This team needed Miller to rally them even under Green, one or two loses and this team could mentally collapse still. 
 

Take away Miller, this team folds for the season, he is that important.  
 

Only Bo, Hughes and Demko have similar impacts.  
 

I would think currently, Petey would be a more likely trade option than Miller.  Not that I would do either.,. But that is how highly I value Miller.  
 

JB did some good things, getting Miller might have been his best move.  
 

No one saw how good he was except Vancouver and Tampa. 
 

The deal looks pretty nice now.  
 

 

[bishopshodan]

Miller is great. Massive part of the group. 

 

In fact the entire team looks pretty good. 

Couple small tweaks, get the cup. 

[kloubek]

8 hours ago, cdgraham said:

Would do that in a heart beat. He might be over paid by a couple million in the last 2 years but will still be useful and a leader. By the time it's not a "good contract" it will be off the books anyways within a couple years if that happens at all. 

I'm not sure how you can be so certain of that. This would put him up to 37, where the vast majority of players are a mere shell of their former selves. I think he would still be useful, sure, but saying 7.5 would only be 2m shy of his potential by that point seems unlikely to me. My best guess is he's a 3rd line player who will be struggling to keep up the pace of play and probably worth 3m tops by that point. (Not accounting for inflation).

 

I do agree that he's a core player though. I love his passion (though it's a double edged sword with Miller) and his leadership. He's really found his groove on this team; I knew he would, but I had no idea he would become our most consistent scorer.

 

I think he's earned that level of paycheque - but that term is a little scary. I also think it would be uncool to put him above Petey (assuming Petey returns to form), so maybe he would accept 7.25X5? I'd do THAT in a heartbeat.

I love Boeser. I really do. But he doesn't play as hard-nosed of a style as Miller does. So if it was a decision between the two due to cap reasons, I reluctantly choose Miller.

[BPA]

I see (think) a possible solution but it would mean losing Hogz and Motte.  Both are due for raises.  But if we able to find roster players to fill their spots on ELC, that should help keep the core provided they sign team friendly teams.  

 

 

Re-sign...

 

Boeser $7.5 x 6

Miller $8 x 6

Bo $7.5 × 7

 

Note:  didn't do the math yet.

 

Edit: quick check suggests we would also need to trade either Pearson or Dickerson (on the last year of their current contracts) and replace with a cheap contract. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by BPA

[Crabcakes]

7 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So, trying to pay league average for all 3 categories, looks something like this............................................................

 

Forwards...................50 Million

 

Defense.....................25 Million

 

Goalies.......................6.5 Million 

                                   ========

Total                          81.5 million

 

So, If we pay Miller, Horvat, Boeser and Pettersson all 7.5 million per x 7 years, we have 20 million to pay the next 9 forwards

Currently we are paying the other 9 forwards 16, million = 47 million

 

Currently we are paying  21 million for Hughes, OEL, and Myers

The other 3 are paid 6.3 for Hamonic, Poolman, and Schenn = 27.3 million

 

Goalies are costing us 6.5 million

 

Total..............................80.8 Million (sure the cap will go up 1 million a year, but only 1 million a year)

 

 

 

So how do we fill in a much needed RHD, get a defensive center, and what happens when in 2 years Hoglander, and Podkolzin come off their ELC's?

 

Again, the budget does not fit the players, and we are being held up by Demko to some extent, and the same CDCers, do not have the pertinence to build the team properly.

 

Yes, I love Miller as a player, but he will be 29 before next season, and he does not fit our core, and his next contract is too expensive for a 30 year old

 

Sell high and reap the rewards............sorry people.............nice player, but something has to give!

 

I am not saying what............you tell me!

That's right Jan.  The Canucks have cap allocation issues and there are a few players that don't fit given the holes that exist in the line up.

 

These players are mid-term support players that are holding important positions in the line up while the core matures.

 

First of all, who is the core?  In order:  Demko, Hughes, Petey, Horvat, Boeser...... reserving core status but honourable mentions to Podkolzin and Hoglander

 

Now the clear big hole in the line up is a top 4 (top pair) RHD..... this is a spot for a core player and there are others

 

High level support players:  Miller (28, $5.25), Garland (25, $4.95), Pearson (29, $3.25), Dickinson (26, 2.65), Motte (26, 1.225), OEL (30, 7.26), Myers (31, 6.0), Hamonic (31, 3.0), Poolman (28, 2.5), Schenn (32, 0.885)

 

How do you fill holes in the line up?  

1. Draft
2. Free Agency
3. Trade high value support players - dollars in, dollars out.  Hate to burst your bubble OP but this is the most likely route for this team at this stage of the cycle.

Having said that, love Miller.  But, reality bites.

[aGENT]

7 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I can't remember who said it, but someone here said it a little while back. You need guys like Miller on your team, but they don't have to be Miller.  

 

I believe that was me. Something like: We need players like Miller (nobody is arguing that), they just might not be Miller specifically.

 

As we talked about in his player thread, what it really comes down to for me is:

 

Do we want to be better now with Miller, or do we want to be better in 2 through 7'ish years, when the young core is actually in their primes?

 

In those 2-7 years do we want an expensive, 30-35 year old, slowing down Miller? Or do we want the younger, cheaper, in their prime pieces trading him would garner us?

 

By all means, if he's willing to sign a team-friendly, 4'ish year +/- $7m extension... Great, I'd love to keep him! I don't think that's a terribly realistic expectation though given this is his 'retirement deal' and he'll have options either with already contending teams for a 'team-friendly' deal, and/or competitive teams for more term/money, less taxes etc.

 

By all means, if the team gets back/stays in the playoff hunt under Bruce, we're not trading him at this TDL. But if we fall off ...? 

 

After that, it makes sense IMO to talk to his agent this summer about a potential extension. If it's not team friendly like above, or if we get a "intends to explore free agency" response... We best be trading him. This team CANNOT afford to let him walk for nothing.

[HKSR]

Ok, here's my take on it with actual numbers.  Assuming a $1M bump in the cap each year.  Although we are hearing that the 2024-25 season may see a significant increase due to escrow being paid back to the owners.  In which case, we definitely can afford all of our forwards.

 

Boeser at $7.5M AAV

Bo at $7.5M AAV

Miller at $8M AAV

Petey at $8.5M AAV

 

Petey is the question mark.  Is he gonna be a Top 10 player in the league?  Or is the current Petey more of who he is at a steady PPG which means he's more of a Tier 2 level star (Tier 1 level being McDavid, Draisatl, Kucherov, Kaprizov, etc).  I used Sebastian Aho as a comparable who scored 66pts in 68gms before signing his big deal.

 

Hogs and Podz both get $4M AAV deals, likely bridge contracts.  Unless they REALLY start putting up big numbers, this is probably realistic. 

Motte extended at $2M AAV. 

 

Pearson needs to be traded in the last year of his deal.  Either that or Dickinson needs to go. 

Finally, when Myers' current deal is up, I doubt we see him making $6M AAV again.  I dropped his AAV by $1M down to $5M AAV.

Anyways, bottom line is that keeping all 4 of Petey, Miller, Bo, and Boeser is completely possible.  Unless you can trade JT Miller for a young impact centre, all we do is create a hole that needs to be filled again.  Who would replace him at either 2C or 3C?

[Attila Umbrus]

8 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So, trying to pay league average for all 3 categories, looks something like this............................................................

 

Forwards...................50 Million

 

Defense.....................25 Million

 

Goalies.......................6.5 Million 

                                   ========

Total                          81.5 million

 

So, If we pay Miller, Horvat, Boeser and Pettersson all 7.5 million per x 7 years, we have 20 million to pay the next 9 forwards

Currently we are paying the other 9 forwards 16, million = 47 million

 

Currently we are paying  21 million for Hughes, OEL, and Myers

The other 3 are paid 6.3 for Hamonic, Poolman, and Schenn = 27.3 million

 

Goalies are costing us 6.5 million

 

Total..............................80.8 Million (sure the cap will go up 1 million a year, but only 1 million a year)

 

 

 

So how do we fill in a much needed RHD, get a defensive center, and what happens when in 2 years Hoglander, and Podkolzin come off their ELC's?

 

Again, the budget does not fit the players, and we are being held up by Demko to some extent, and the same CDCers, do not have the pertinence to build the team properly.

 

Yes, I love Miller as a player, but he will be 29 before next season, and he does not fit our core, and his next contract is too expensive for a 30 year old

 

Sell high and reap the rewards............sorry people.............nice player, but something has to give!

 

I am not saying what............you tell me!

It's not worth it to let him go. I firmly believe this guy has the potential to help this team win a stanley cup. At the end of the day that's what we're trying to do. Yes of course trading him will bring a big time haul in, but sometimes it's just not worth it...once again what are you telling all the players on your team if you don't bring this guy back and trade him for picks and young assets...sounds like a re-tool to me, I bet the players are sick of hearing that.

 

You want to see this team do well and keep and upward trajectory, you keep this guy and you pay him. Anything else sends the wrong message to players IMO.

 

I was actually on board with trading him at the beginning of the season, but after watching him again carry this team and be a vocal leader out there I know i'm wrong now. This guy needs to stay. We need a "Bieksa" type character on this team and he has it in spades.