[Proposal] Wild - Canucks Miller moved

[BigTramFan]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Playing top pair on a crap team, only -8, with 72% done starts. Plays physical, solid defensive game. Younger and meaner than pretty much anything we have on the right. Can skate and pass well.

 

Not saying he's a long term solution but as a temporary band aid until we develop a guy like Jiricek if we draft him, or trade for someone. Especially with Hamonic being such a question mark all the damn time.

 

This is of course if we don't move Miller/Boeser for a younger RHD.

 

 

 

Four years at $4m AAV is way too much and is long term as far as I am concerned!

 

If we can't upgrade on Hamonic in the off season, I'd take Lyubushkin on a 1 year show me contract for less than $2m. Then if he shows well enough to be a top 4 player, we will have Hamonic, Schenn and Burroughs expiring and we can sign him long term to the sort of contract you mention.

[aGENT]

10 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

Four years at $4m AAV is way too much and is long term as far as I am concerned!

 

If we can't upgrade on Hamonic in the off season, I'd take Lyubushkin on a 1 year show me contract for less than $2m. Then if he shows well enough to be a top 4 player, we will have Hamonic, Schenn and Burroughs expiring and we can sign him long term to the sort of contract you mention.

Sure.

 

Like I said in the post, $4m was a COMPLETELY high estimate. I think you could get him at something like/closer to Poolman's contract. All depends on the market for him though. But IMO, he's an underrated, defensive player. Younger, more physical, Tanev-type (though probably not quite his ultimate ceiling).

 

And again, this is only if we can't solve our top 4 RHD issue via trade (Miller/Boeser). 

[Baggins]

On 12/29/2021 at 3:34 AM, IBatch said:

A move backwards now to take a giant step forwards in a season and a half.   Don't forget, by re-signing Miller we lose a valuable depth player.   Or maybe a top four D.   Adding 3 million instead to a player like Hamonic for example - or if you'd like a player like Burroughs, we definitely lose options.

 

  The cap implications will be in full force the moment he starts earning his next pay-cheque and there is zero chance he's going to stay without a bump in pay that reflects what he's done since he got here...on the open market my guess is someone would pay a lot on a 5-6 year deal and someone would offer him full term on a lesser cap hit that would  just become a massive hardship later.   Miller a very good player right now, absolutely. And should be for 3/4 years on his next deal, but his peak will be on the downswing too.   Just like the Sedins.   Imagine where we'd be if we didn't re-sign the Sedins?   Four years ahead in our cycle. 

 

I get it.  Miller is awesome and id love to keep him.   Maybe we should and trade Brock instead, or Horvat or EP?   It's hard to say as of right now.   Maybe the best thing we could possibly do, is win a cup while he's here.   

How? Explain that claim.

 

You seem worried about a payday that's a year and a half away. A lot can happen in a that time span. Which why I see absolutely no reason to deal Miller right now. Particulalry for futures. The only reason (to me) to move one of our high end players is to address an immediate need. Extending the rebuild, trading quality for players years away from stepping on NHL ice, at this point is just foolish. There should only be two types of trades at this point. Pending ufa's at the deadline if out of the playoff picture, or trades that improve the current roster. How many years of Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglnader, and Demko do you want to waste rebuilding? Horvat will be 27 by seasons end. The time is now to improve the team rather than weaken it for 'cross my fingers' futures.

[KKnight]

6 hours ago, Baggins said:

How? Explain that claim.

 

You seem worried about a payday that's a year and a half away. A lot can happen in a that time span. Which why I see absolutely no reason to deal Miller right now. Particulalry for futures. The only reason (to me) to move one of our high end players is to address an immediate need. Extending the rebuild, trading quality for players years away from stepping on NHL ice, at this point is just foolish. There should only be two types of trades at this point. Pending ufa's at the deadline if out of the playoff picture, or trades that improve the current roster. How many years of Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglnader, and Demko do you want to waste rebuilding? Horvat will be 27 by seasons end. The time is now to improve the team rather than weaken it for 'cross my fingers' futures.

With the current streak we're on, what we should be looking at doing has changed. This team is starting to look structured and like it has a legitimate shot at the playoffs. Mind you December schedule is a lot easier than January. If we want to be a serious team, we need a right handed centermen, think McLeod on NJD or maybe Thompson on Buffalo. I also think a physical stay at home LHD would be ideal as well - Jeremy Lauzon or Robert Hagg, could be had for a very modest return. We should try to keep the returns minimal, because we need to restock the prospect cupboard as well. 

[IBatch]

17 hours ago, Baggins said:

How? Explain that claim.

 

You seem worried about a payday that's a year and a half away. A lot can happen in a that time span. Which why I see absolutely no reason to deal Miller right now. Particulalry for futures. The only reason (to me) to move one of our high end players is to address an immediate need. Extending the rebuild, trading quality for players years away from stepping on NHL ice, at this point is just foolish. There should only be two types of trades at this point. Pending ufa's at the deadline if out of the playoff picture, or trades that improve the current roster. How many years of Pettersson, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglnader, and Demko do you want to waste rebuilding? Horvat will be 27 by seasons end. The time is now to improve the team rather than weaken it for 'cross my fingers' futures.

I don't want to trade Miller right now either.  This is a discussion on what his next contract would look like IF he keeps it up.   Right now, since he joined the Canucks, he's 12th overall in league scoring all players .... and if you look at the names just above and below him - they are all making total bank.   He plays two positions that are hard to fill, first line C and first line LW.     Stone, Zinbanejad, Tavares etc all below him, are undoubtedly considered stars in this league and how much do they make?   Miller is totally awesome right now and the last few years.    

 

To be 100% clear.   I wouldn't trade Miller near or at the TDL IF we are in a playoff spot.   In fact i'd be happy to be buyers.    Use him and his cap savings while we have him if we are in a spot.   And depending on what happens in the playoffs and next season possibly keep him for another run.    However if this season unravels again, which for sure could happen, i'd 100% trade him at or near the trade deadline as well.    It's pretty much a fact we are either going to keep all these guys and lose important depth, or trade one of them.   Miller, BB or EP.     I don't know who the right player is.   Maybe it's EP.   But his stock is lower then it should be,  and he's supposed to be part of the core we are building around.   

 

So i agree with you.   Miller is a trade chip for any contender or bubble team.  A very good one at that.    But i'd for sure keep him this year if we are a playoff team at or near the trade deadline.    It doesn't have to be Miller.   Guys just pushing the team forward and putting it on his freaking back - i love that about him.    I'm just not convinced we are going to win a cup while he's under contract with us - are you?  And because he's got so much value, i'd be happy to keep him as well - but not on a deal that he's earning at the moment.  Which is pretty substantial.   Come late February we can re-visit. 

[JM_]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

I don't want to trade Miller right now either.  This is a discussion on what his next contract would look like IF he keeps it up.   Right now, since he joined the Canucks, he's 12th overall in league scoring all players .... and if you look at the names just above and below him - they are all making total bank.   He plays two positions that are hard to fill, first line C and first line LW.     Stone, Zinbanejad, Tavares etc all below him, are undoubtedly considered stars in this league and how much do they make?   Miller is totally awesome right now and the last few years.    

 

To be 100% clear.   I wouldn't trade Miller near or at the TDL IF we are in a playoff spot.   In fact i'd be happy to be buyers.    Use him and his cap savings while we have him if we are in a spot.   And depending on what happens in the playoffs and next season possibly keep him for another run.    However if this season unravels again, which for sure could happen, i'd 100% trade him at or near the trade deadline as well.    It's pretty much a fact we are either going to keep all these guys and lose important depth, or trade one of them.   Miller, BB or EP.     I don't know who the right player is.   Maybe it's EP.   But his stock is lower then it should be,  and he's supposed to be part of the core we are building around.   

 

So i agree with you.   Miller is a trade chip for any contender or bubble team.  A very good one at that.    But i'd for sure keep him this year if we are a playoff team at or near the trade deadline.    It doesn't have to be Miller.   Guys just pushing the team forward and putting it on his freaking back - i love that about him.    I'm just not convinced we are going to win a cup while he's under contract with us - are you?  And because he's got so much value, i'd be happy to keep him as well - but not on a deal that he's earning at the moment.  Which is pretty substantial.   Come late February we can re-visit. 

what will make this all really interesting (outside of the games) is if Rutherford quietly pulls off a reasonable Boeser extension between now and the TDL.

 

Miller is such an interesting topic right now. If we keep him, great. If we move him if we're out of the playoffs, maybe great too depending on the return. If its for that rarest of players - the U25 RFA top 4 RHD then I'm fine with that too. 

 

Just have to see how the guys survive mid-January on that tough eastern road trip, I think thats the make or break point of the season now.

 

 

[73 Percent]

47 minutes ago, JM_ said:

what will make this all really interesting (outside of the games) is if Rutherford quietly pulls off a reasonable Boeser extension between now and the TDL.

 

Miller is such an interesting topic right now. If we keep him, great. If we move him if we're out of the playoffs, maybe great too depending on the return. If its for that rarest of players - the U25 RFA top 4 RHD then I'm fine with that too. 

 

Just have to see how the guys survive mid-January on that tough eastern road trip, I think thats the make or break point of the season now.

 

 

There's like 1 guy that fits that criteria. 

 

Noah Dobson. 

 

I don't see the isles moving him.

[aGENT]

57 minutes ago, 73 Percent said:

There's like 1 guy that fits that criteria. 

 

Noah Dobson. 

 

I don't see the isles moving him.

There's also Rangers Braden Schneider 20 (Not sure if the Rangers would be ready to go "all in" on a trade like this?).

 

Kings Brandt Clarke (Top prospect and would not come cheap. Depends highly on how serious they are about giving Doughty, Kopitar et al another kick at can. Could use more size)

 

Kings Sean Durzi (Largely see above. Both could ideally have more size)

 

As for Noah Dobson, they're not a playoff team this year...though "should be"... could be less incentive to "buy now" but perhaps in the offseason? Perhaps they feel like Mayfield, who is owed a raise one year after Dobson, is more of a "win now" player. He is playing above Dobson. Maybe they save their cap space for him, while parlaying Dobson in to also much needed top 6 shooting to help Barzal out.

 

They could likely also target Chychrun in a second trade....

 

Pelech, Pulock

Chychrun, Mayfield

 

...would still be a VERY solid top 4 and they get a much needed top 3 w/c.

[Mike Vanderhoek]

49 minutes ago, aGENT said:

There's also Rangers Braden Schneider 20 (Not sure if the Rangers would be ready to go "all in" on a trade like this?).

 

Kings Brandt Clarke (Top prospect and would not come cheap. Depends highly on how serious they are about giving Doughty, Kopitar et al another kick at can. Could use more size)

 

Kings Sean Durzi (Largely see above. Both could ideally have more size)

 

As for Noah Dobson, they're not a playoff team this year...though "should be"... could be less incentive to "buy now" but perhaps in the offseason? Perhaps they feel like Mayfield, who is owed a raise one year after Dobson, is more of a "win now" player. He is playing above Dobson. Maybe they save their cap space for him, while parlaying Dobson in to also much needed top 6 shooting to help Barzal out.

 

They could likely also target Chychrun in a second trade....

 

Pelech, Pulock

Chychrun, Mayfield

 

...would still be a VERY solid top 4 and they get a much needed top 3 w/c.

I would like to see more games before I write off the Islanders to be honest, that last wildcard spot in the East is quite attainable and could be reached if the Wings had a bad week and a half and the Isles got hot.

 

Let's take into consideration the horrible scheduling, injuries to start the season and like everyone else covid rearing its ugly head. With the team now allowed to play at home, they head out for a Western trip shortly then their schedule normalizes dramatically as in comfortably at home and in their time zone until another last western trip the end of February.

 

I think the Isles will be knocking on the door to get into the Playoffs, their steady and grade A duo of Lamorello and Trotz can right the ship if anyone can, Pulock is close to returning as well.

 

My point is I am sure the Isles are still in the mindset of buying mode, but Lou is shrewd and his additions of Chara and Parise have mostly gone under the radar but were big adds for the team from last season, I would suspect they don't pay the ask on a Miller but if we are talking about would a move make sense for the Canucks, absolutely for both sides. I bet Dobson is not an option but he and Bellows would look pretty sweet in Vancouver. I just don't see the Isles moving one of their young dmen.

[Baggins]

3 hours ago, JM_ said:

what will make this all really interesting (outside of the games) is if Rutherford quietly pulls off a reasonable Boeser extension between now and the TDL.

 

Miller is such an interesting topic right now. If we keep him, great. If we move him if we're out of the playoffs, maybe great too depending on the return. If its for that rarest of players - the U25 RFA top 4 RHD then I'm fine with that too. 

 

Just have to see how the guys survive mid-January on that tough eastern road trip, I think thats the make or break point of the season now.

 

 

This is actually my point. What I originally replied to was moving Miller for draft picks. Which I disagree with. It weakens the team while playing a waiting game hoping the return works out. This wastes more years of Horvat and also the youth on the roster. The only reason to move a highly valuable player, still under contract, should be to address an immediate need that actually improves the team. This team is well on it's way out of rebuilding. That's when you trade from a position of depth to address a position of weakness. In our current position you move pending ufa's you don't intend to re-sign, if out of the playoffs, for futures. You don't trade high value players under contract for futures at the trade deadline.

 

By the time those draft picks are ready, if they ever are, it will be Horvat in the current Miller position. It will be - we need to trade Horvat for futures because he's 30/31 and going to decline before the team is ready to contend. It's a bad cycle to get into.

[Gurn]

Moving Miller to one team for picks is fine, since you can still trade those picks to some other team for immediate help.

[Coconuts]

New comment from Rutherford, gives us some insight as to what trades will look like going forward. Definitely seems to be an emphasis on youth, which I welcome.

 

 

 

 

[Baggins]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

I don't want to trade Miller right now either.  This is a discussion on what his next contract would look like IF he keeps it up.   Right now, since he joined the Canucks, he's 12th overall in league scoring all players .... and if you look at the names just above and below him - they are all making total bank.   He plays two positions that are hard to fill, first line C and first line LW.     Stone, Zinbanejad, Tavares etc all below him, are undoubtedly considered stars in this league and how much do they make?   Miller is totally awesome right now and the last few years.    

 

To be 100% clear.   I wouldn't trade Miller near or at the TDL IF we are in a playoff spot.   In fact i'd be happy to be buyers.    Use him and his cap savings while we have him if we are in a spot.   And depending on what happens in the playoffs and next season possibly keep him for another run.    However if this season unravels again, which for sure could happen, i'd 100% trade him at or near the trade deadline as well.    It's pretty much a fact we are either going to keep all these guys and lose important depth, or trade one of them.   Miller, BB or EP.     I don't know who the right player is.   Maybe it's EP.   But his stock is lower then it should be,  and he's supposed to be part of the core we are building around.   

 

So i agree with you.   Miller is a trade chip for any contender or bubble team.  A very good one at that.    But i'd for sure keep him this year if we are a playoff team at or near the trade deadline.    It doesn't have to be Miller.   Guys just pushing the team forward and putting it on his freaking back - i love that about him.    I'm just not convinced we are going to win a cup while he's under contract with us - are you?  And because he's got so much value, i'd be happy to keep him as well - but not on a deal that he's earning at the moment.  Which is pretty substantial.   Come late February we can re-visit. 

My original response, and continuing argument, has never been about his next contract. It's was a response, and argument, against trading Miller for picks this year. Which I view as a major step backwards. You didn't explain in your response at all how that step backwards translates into a "giant step forward" in a year and a half.

 

I haven't said at all Miller should not be traded. Just he shouldn't be traded for futures rather than addressing an immediate need. I view trading him for futures at this time as an unnecessary step backwards and a very bad choice.

[aGENT]

36 minutes ago, Baggins said:

My original response, and continuing argument, has never been about his next contract. It's was a response, and argument, against trading Miller for picks this year. Which I view as a major step backwards. You didn't explain in your response at all how that step backwards translates into a "giant step forward" in a year and a half.

 

I haven't said at all Miller should not be traded. Just he shouldn't be traded for futures rather than addressing an immediate need. I view trading him for futures at this time as an unnecessary step backwards and a very bad choice.

I believe the thinking is that we'd only move him if we're out of it this year. He'll garner a larger return if the trade team gets two runs out of him on his current, cheap contract.

 

And yes, presumably that would be for a younger RHD. Or if not, perhaps futures we could flip for said D. And you may want to note the tweet above.

[Coconuts]

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I believe the thinking is that we'd only move him if we're out of it this year. He'll garner a larger return if the trade team gets two runs out of him on his current, cheap contract.

 

And yes, presumably that would be for a younger RHD. Or if not, perhaps futures we could flip for said D. And you may want to note the tweet above.

Rutherford's comments lead me to believe that young assets and picks would be used or retained

 

If there was a clear young upgrade or player that could be in the works though

 

But veteran help seems unlikely 

[IBatch]

45 minutes ago, Baggins said:

My original response, and continuing argument, has never been about his next contract. It's was a response, and argument, against trading Miller for picks this year. Which I view as a major step backwards. You didn't explain in your response at all how that step backwards translates into a "giant step forward" in a year and a half.

 

I haven't said at all Miller should not be traded. Just he shouldn't be traded for futures rather than addressing an immediate need. I view trading him for futures at this time as an unnecessary step backwards and a very bad choice.

Miller's value is sky high right now.   That's fair to say.   He's also got one year more so it's more then a rental.   Two firsts and a grade A prospect by retaining 50% on his deal easy.   Next year he becomes a rental, and who knows maybe his value has gone way down by then.  

 

It's very tough for me to think he won't want to get paid like others that have done what he's done the past 3 seasons.   That puts him into 8.5-9.5 territory over a 5/6 year deal.  And really i don't want to "argue" about it.   Like i said, if we are in the playoff this year then keep him and see how things go.  And maybe next season too. The marco view?  We aren't really a contending team  ... are we?   I don't know.   I do know what happened with the Sedins last deal though.   And someone might be willing to sign him to a 7 year deal that would take Miller right to their age.   Do you think he's better then the Sedins we're?   I don't.   Love having him on the team right now, but if we are just going to let him go anyways, why not add what we can now.   I'd be willing to bet Rutherford is thinking the exact same thing.   If we are out at the TDL and the wheels have fallen off, he's as good as gone.   If we are close then maybe not.  This team isn't a contender right now.   If they want to trade BB or EP i instead that's fine too.  One of them needs to be recycled, we need a pool to back the core up when they are in their primes.   Plus we have young players that need to be paid.   The best value NHLers are usually in the 4-6 range.   Garlands.  Tyler Toffoli's.   Horvat's, BB and Miller's.  

[JM_]

26 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

Rutherford's comments lead me to believe that young assets and picks would be used or retained

 

If there was a clear young upgrade or player that could be in the works though

 

But veteran help seems unlikely 

there's always the UFA market for that 

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, JM_ said:

there's always the UFA market for that 

True that, that's the only way I see us bringing in vets

 

Would have to free up cap space first tho

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

True that, that's the only way I see us bringing in vets

 

Would have to free up cap space first tho

 

That it really. Moving Miller does do that, along with the prospect and picks. 

 

I do wonder if they are going to start talking to Boeser's camp asap. Thats going to determine a lot of the next moves as well. 

 

 

[IBatch]

29 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

That it really. Moving Miller does do that, along with the prospect and picks. 

 

I do wonder if they are going to start talking to Boeser's camp asap. Thats going to determine a lot of the next moves as well. 

 

 

Brock Boeser can sign anything before the end of the season and make his qualifying offer go away.   He hasn't earned it yet.   At least not on a long term deal.   Seemed to be on the right track last year... this year?   All over the place.   Id rather have a vet like Patches anyday at that price.  Medium term - guaranteed blue chip.    Top ten in goal scoring since he joined the league.   It's a bridge deal, he bet on himself - and is losing. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by IBatch