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Doing Minni a Brock solid [Proposal]


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36 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

What dyu feel is Rutherfords move?

 

Its almost like a 7 game win streak confused, the fan base, our situation.

 

He said we have holes.  Are not in a cycle for spending 1st's / young assets.  Loves Demko, is high on Hughes & gets less specific after that...

He wants to build a long-term contender and is okay if it takes a bit.

 

Wants to gain picks/prospects/age on any deal he makes.

 

Probably wants picks/prospects/cap space to reshape the roster and address the holes on the team.

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15 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

He wants to build a long-term contender and is okay if it takes a bit.

 

Wants to gain picks/prospects/age on any deal he makes.

 

Probably wants picks/prospects/cap space to reshape the roster and address the holes on the team.

So he is a seller... ?

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4 minutes ago, Canuck Surfer said:

So he is a seller... ?

Likely yeah but by how much and when is unknown. 

 

He's talked about having young pieces already in place and building a long-term contender.

 

What that tells me is that the older veterans are fair game and that we'll have to make some tough decisions on certain players.

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6 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Funny, but you comments caused me to look at their signed and unsigned prospects...quite a collection, and I agree with you! Imagine that! LOL

 

It actually makes me look at our team even harder, and it just shows you where Benning did screw up, and how incomplete we are!

 

I would hope JR acts on this, in the proper manner................what ever that is?

 

I will say this, IMO, "IF" we are moving Miller, we should move him at 50% retention, and attempt to get a haul

 

IMO, Miller at 50% is worth............2022-1st, a roster player, and a prospect...............nothing less would do

Feel the same way.   It likely wouldn't be a high first, maybe something in the low 20's could  be the best we could hope for, but the prospect would also be a main piece too, and multiple picks for sure is a possibility.   If teams trade firsts for Coleman etc, and a first, second and third for Tatar who had one year left on his deal (Vegas), it's fair to say Miller could give us quite a large haul in picks anyways.   If we are out this year at or near the trade deadline, it would be a solid plan.    An unprotected first to a bubble team or a team hanging on like San Jose for example (i don't think they will be in but just for an example, it's hockey and you never do know - but you do know Wilson hates the R word) even better.   Doesn't need to be this draft either - what COL managed with OTT/Duchene was a one off so not expecting that, but it would be nice to get into the top 15 or so.   IF we don't make the playoffs this season, and had two firsts in the top 15 plus maybe an additional 2 or third that would sure be a decent consolation prize, and we'd have the money to work with keeping Horvat, Podz, Hogs etc.     

 

Am glad Rutherford is giving this team a chance.   EP is on the hot seat too.   He hasn't come right out and said exactly that, but he has said he's not earning his pay cheque .... and this is starting to be concerning after last seasons slow start as well.   

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15 hours ago, hammertime said:

Meh I don't get all the paper bags. They have the best chance at the cup this year that they have ever had IMO. If this was 2011 and the canucks had a 14m cap penalty coming for the next 3 years and you told me we could have Rick Nash + Voracek UFA(Just a hypothetical example) For one all in run at the cup.  And all it was going to cost was going ufa M Samuelsson Cody Hodgeson on an expiring elc next year and a 10thish overall pick which we could easily then recoup by selling Nash in the offseason. I'm taking a run at the Cup and then going full rebuild and not worried one bit about COHO and ...... Bo Horvat I've got 3 years to re stock and reload. Not one worry in the world about the great careers Bo and Co Ho could go on to have in CBJ

 

They were top of the West at the TDL in Boudreau's 1st season at over .700, only Washington had a better point percentage.  Fletcher went all in giving up multiple draft picks to add Hanzal.  It completely messed up chemistry and they were bottom-6 for the rest of the season.  They went into the playoffs without ever having found any traction and were eliminated in round 1.  Boudreau was just reminiscing about the idiocy of that trade on his podcast with Russo.

 

Fletcher always tried to compete and gave up multiple draft picks - the Wild had a very depleted prospect pool after the Fletcher years but nothing to show for it.  This time they sound well decided to build the team the right way. 

 

Some of those wins this season were based off sheer will where they are trailing and manage to tie the game to send it to OT.  They lead the league in goals with the extra attacker.  That's their work ethic and a never quit attitude but not an indication that they have a roster able to win playoffs rounds and go all the way.   They have only 13 wins in regulation in 30 games and there's no 3v3 or shootouts in the post-season.  

 

The Wild really aren't true contenders yet despite what their record show.  

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, mll said:

 

They were top of the West at the TDL in Boudreau's 1st season at over .700, only Washington had a better point percentage.  Fletcher went all in giving up multiple draft picks to add Hanzal.  It completely messed up chemistry and they were bottom-6 for the rest of the season.  They went into the playoffs without ever having found any traction and were eliminated in round 1.  Boudreau was just reminiscing about the idiocy of that trade on his podcast with Russo.

 

Fletcher always tried to compete and gave up multiple draft picks - the Wild had a very depleted prospect pool after the Fletcher years but nothing to show for it.  This time they sound well decided to build the team the right way. 

 

Some of those wins this season were based off sheer will where they are trailing and manage to tie the game to send it to OT.  They lead the league in goals with the extra attacker.  That's their work ethic and a never quit attitude but not an indication that they have a roster able to win playoffs rounds and go all the way.   They have only 13 wins in regulation in 30 games and there's no 3v3 or shootouts in the post-season.  

 

The Wild really aren't true contenders yet despite what their record show.  

 

Thanks for info. So what I'm hearing the consensus is they should set their sets on a first round exit then choke on 3 years of cap penalty. Where's the fun in that? I really don't think they are far off being real contenders. Every year we see at least one upstart team go deep in the playoffs because of....." their work ethic and a never quit attitude" I think Miller puts them in real legit contention he's not "Hanzel". But hey paper bag me. 

 

What are they doing winning games don't they know they are in a rebuild cycle. They should probably sell everyone over 25 at the DL. Pack it up shut er down.

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I'm fine with moving either or both players if that's what Rutherford decides, but Minnesota's gotta be up in cap hell pretty quick with the Parise//Suter buyouts, I don't see them making any big moves. I see them playing the long game, like I expect Rutherford to do. 

 

If they make noise with their current lineup, great, but I don't think they were expecting to at the beginning of the season. 

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13 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

What dyu feel is Rutherfords move?

 

Its almost like a 7 game win streak confused, the fan base, our situation.

 

He said we have holes.  Are not in a cycle for spending 1st's / young assets.  Loves Demko, is high on Hughes & gets less specific after that...

These are some recent comments from Rutherford, the trade bit is of particular interest. Given the sort of GM he plans on bringing in it sounds like he'll be quite involved as president. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Thanks for info. So what I'm hearing the consensus is they should set their sets on a first round exit then choke on 3 years of cap penalty. Where's the fun in that? I really don't think they are far off being real contenders. Every year we see at least one upstart team go deep in the playoffs because of....." their work ethic and a never quit attitude" I think Miller puts them in real legit contention he's not "Hanzel". But hey paper bag me. 

 

What are they doing winning games don't they know they are in a rebuild cycle. They should probably sell everyone over 25 at the DL. Pack it up shut er down.

Re-building doesn't mean going young throughout the lineup and selling off everyone.

 

Ever since Guerin got to Minnesota he has been acquiring more draft picks but he hasn't gone in full tear down.  He has even extended the contracts of several veterans like Foligno, Spurgeon, Brodin, Hartman and even signed Talbot in free agency to give them a better chance to win.

 

Tearing things down is really not part of the plan because having a winning culture is just as important.  Guys like Foligno, Hartman really represent what they want Wild hockey to be about.  They also have several core players ready to compete today.  Their roster will simply continue to get better as they replace lesser players with higher end players in an already winning environment.  They want to be perennial contenders and setting the standard has already started although their roster is still a work in construction.

 

They are still looking to compete during their rebuild.  They simply aren't looking to move futures and prospects to improve their team and are looking at the longer term picture.  They are more likely to make a hockey trade where the player likely to be available are Fiala and maybe Greenway.

  

Adding Miller would help them and bridge the gap to Rossi but the return wouldn't be what Rutherford is looking for as the Wild won't be giving up futures or key players.   

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14 hours ago, Canuck Surfer said:

What dyu feel is Rutherfords move?

 

Its almost like a 7 game win streak confused, the fan base, our situation.

 

He said we have holes.  Are not in a cycle for spending 1st's / young assets.  Loves Demko, is high on Hughes & gets less specific after that...

In his introductory presser he mentioned that the Canucks are not a team with a lot of fast skaters which is his preference and that they need to play quicker.  Pittsburgh had a lot of team speed but not all were fast skaters.  Bonino wasn't fleet of foot but he was smart and played with fast wingers in Pittsburgh.

 

He also mentioned that they were capped out and that any moves would have to be cap in for cap out.

 

I could see him doing something similar to the Wild.  Still try and compete but without giving up draft picks or prospects and in parallel building up the prospect pool.  Adjust the roster through hockey trades if they can't move players for picks.  I don't necessarily see Miller traded - it will depend on his ask.

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1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

These are some recent comments from Rutherford, the trade bit is of particular interest. Given the sort of GM he plans on bringing in it sounds like he'll be quite involved as president. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Would it not be preferential to get blue chip prospects that are closer to ready than picks that are further out than the 2 year plan would indicate. 

 

36 minutes ago, mll said:

Re-building doesn't mean going young throughout the lineup and selling off everyone.

 

Ever since Guerin got to Minnesota he has been acquiring more draft picks but he hasn't gone in full tear down.  He has even extended the contracts of several veterans like Foligno, Spurgeon, Brodin, Hartman and even signed Talbot in free agency to give them a better chance to win.

 

Tearing things down is really not part of the plan because having a winning culture is just as important.  Guys like Foligno, Hartman really represent what they want Wild hockey to be about.  They also have several core players ready to compete today.  Their roster will simply continue to get better as they replace lesser players with higher end players in an already winning environment.  They want to be perennial contenders and setting the standard has already started although their roster is still a work in construction.

 

They are still looking to compete during their rebuild.  They simply aren't looking to move futures and prospects to improve their team and are looking at the longer term picture.  They are more likely to make a hockey trade where the player likely to be available are Fiala and maybe Greenway.

  

Adding Miller would help them and bridge the gap to Rossi but the return wouldn't be what Rutherford is looking for as the Wild won't be giving up futures or key players.   

You're probably right. I just don't see how they can possibly remain competitive as you say. To me it makes more sense to go all in now while they have chance drive up the values. Then sell sell sell get to the bottom for a few years and come back with high end youth. Keep Foligno and Spurgeon around to grandfather the kids.

 

I don't really see Rossi and Blody as foundational but rather good young middle 6er's. That help you stay mediocre as you say is Guerin's plan. Not good enough to win and not bad enough to draft elite talent.   

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Just now, hammertime said:

Would it not be preferential to get blue chip prospects that are closer to ready than picks that are further out than the 2 year plan would indicate. 

 

You're probably right. I just don't see how they can possibly remain competitive as you say. To me it makes more sense to go all in now while they have chance drive up the values. Then sell sell sell get to the bottom for a few years and come back with high end youth. Keep Foligno and Spurgeon around to grandfather the kids.

 

I don't really see Rossi and Blody as foundational but rather good young middle 6er's. But rather help you stay mediocre as you say is Guerin's plan. Not good enough to win and not bad enough to draft elite talent.   

That depends entirely on what Rutherford envisions the future looking like. One thing he's consistently made clear since getting here is that he's going to value and prioritize youth, picks, and getting younger. Prospects are are closer are fine, but given what Minnesota's near future is going to look like I don't see them mortgaging the future to go for it now. 

 

New management was given free reign to make those buyouts and build the team up properly, Minnesota's ownership was frustrated with being a playoff team that didn't do much of anything once they got in. 

 

If Miller's to be traded I'd be looking at the Rangers as more of a trading partner given their glut of talented youth on and off the roster. Given the age of their core you've gotta think the playoffs are going to be the priority sooner than later, and they're absolutely in the mix to make it this season. 

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24 minutes ago, mll said:

In his introductory presser he mentioned that the Canucks are not a team with a lot of fast skaters which is his preference and that they need to play quicker.  Pittsburgh had a lot of team speed but not all were fast skaters.  Bonino wasn't fleet of foot but he was smart and played with fast wingers in Pittsburgh.

 

He also mentioned that they were capped out and that any moves would have to be cap in for cap out.

 

I could see him doing something similar to the Wild.  Still try and compete but without giving up draft picks or prospects and in parallel building up the prospect pool.  Adjust the roster through hockey trades if they can't move players for picks.  I don't necessarily see Miller traded - it will depend on his ask.

But this is death...... Just trying to compete but not contend. IMO get to the bottom or get to the top. pick which way you're going and commit. 

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3 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

given what Minnesota's near future is going to look like I don't see them mortgaging the future to go for it now. 

I am still not following how it's mortgaging the future as everyone says. Miller and Boeser can both be traded in the offseason to recoup the loss of Rossi and Boldy they burned up his elc in the AHL already. If they go deep in the playoffs the haul of picks/prospects for Miller will be substantial. Can't they have their cake and eat it? 

 

I included Boeser for Fiala  in this trade because they need a top 6 right shot I think he gives them more balance. I like Fiala and I think Bruce does too. He has that element of speed JR has talked about adding. 

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3 minutes ago, hammertime said:

But this is death...... Just trying to compete but not contend. IMO get to the bottom or get to the top. pick which way you're going and commit. 

As they work on the roster to turn them into legit contenders.  Demko, Hughes are ready to compete today and are key parts of the future.  It's not like they can just drop to the bottom and sell off everyone - some contracts might not even be moveable.  

 

He has to also make sure that the key guys will want to stick around once their contracts are up and bottoming out doesn't really encourage loyalty.  Horvat is UFA in a season and has already said he's not willing to go through a rebuild.  After this season Hughes only has 5 years left and Demko 4.  Boudreau is going to coach to win and Demko can steal games.  The Canucks as currently constructed are a bubble team.    

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Just now, mll said:

As they work on the roster to turn them into legit contenders.  Demko, Hughes are ready to compete today and are key parts of the future.  It's not like they can just drop to the bottom and sell off everyone - some contracts might not even be moveable.  

 

He has to also make sure that the key guys will want to stick around once their contracts are up and bottoming out doesn't really encourage loyalty.  Horvat is UFA in a season and has already said he's not willing to go through a rebuild.  After this season Hughes only has 5 years left and Demko 4.  Boudreau is going to coach to win and Demko can steal games.  The Canucks as currently constructed are a bubble team.    

Which is why I'm targeting prospects not picks. We don't have to bottom out all we have to do is grab some top ten caliber prospects from the years we traded ours away. I'm not talking about tanking here I'm talking about contending in 2 years instead of 4. The last thing the canucks should be doing is hanging on to our trade chips in hopes that we squeeze into a wild card or worse nearly miss.  

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1 minute ago, hammertime said:

I am still not following how it's mortgaging the future as everyone says. Miller and Boeser can both be traded in the offseason to recoup the loss of Rossi and Boldy they burned up his elc in the AHL already. If they go deep in the playoffs the haul of picks/prospects for Miller will be substantial. Can't they have their cake and eat it? 

 

I included Boeser for Fiala  in this trade because they need a top 6 right shot I think he gives them more balance. I like Fiala and I think Bruce does too. He has that element of speed JR has talked about adding. 

It forces them to start over.  Boldy and Rossi are soon NHL ready.  Someone drafted in 2022 is going to be further away which widens the age gap to Kaprizov/EriksonEk who are their key players.  The Wild were also thrilled to draft Rossi.  

 

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6 minutes ago, hammertime said:

I am still not following how it's mortgaging the future as everyone says. Miller and Boeser can both be traded in the offseason to recoup the loss of Rossi and Boldy they burned up his elc in the AHL already. If they go deep in the playoffs the haul of picks/prospects for Miller will be substantial. Can't they have their cake and eat it? 

 

I included Boeser for Fiala  in this trade because they need a top 6 right shot I think he gives them more balance. I like Fiala and I think Bruce does too. He has that element of speed JR has talked about adding. 

It's not, but Minnesota is high on those players and it's unlikely they're moved. Plus, they'd be moving known quantities for an unknown trade return going forward, if they like their young guys it makes more sense to keep them. 

 

Faila's also going to be 26 before next season begins, and will require term and dollars as a pending RFA. Honestly, given the production of both players we'd probably be better off extending Brock who's outproduced him and who's a year younger. Assuming we can negotiate a reasonable deal.  

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Moving out youth to try and go for it doesn't align with what we've seen and heard from Minnesota. Since Guerin took over they've barely traded picks, so why would they be interested in moving out their youth? 

 

Buying out Parise and Suter was a big sign that they'd rather build things up properly as opposed to trying to go for it in the short term. Trying to have their cake and eat it too is a risk, the players they have are known quantities and they're clearly already competing right now so why not simply stay the course? 

 

If they make noise come playoff time that's probably gravy, I doubt they were expecting to when the season began. 

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Yall come into the proposals section quite often to poo poo others ideas often correctly. And while I really appreciate both of you're insight I don't ever see you put forth any of your own ideas. 

 

I'm curious @mll @Coconuts you got any bright ideas or do you solely come here to critique? You seem like intelligent hockey fans. Would love to read one of your well thought out proposals some time. 

 

Also curious if you have ever read a proposal you liked?

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