Why Does The Media And Many Fans Still Consider Our Defense Suspect?

[Rindiculous]

It's been a narrative since the beginning of the season.  Most of us and the media thought we'd score a lot of goals, but we'd also allow a lot of goals.  Of course, me being the optimist I am, I thought we'd be a really good team 5 on 5 scoring a lot of goals and not allowing a lot of goals because I thought we significantly upgraded our defense core with OEL while having a passable right side with Hamonic and Poolman.  I don't think anyone expected our offense to tank this hard so I guess I was half right lol.

 

However, getting close to the halfway point of the season, we have completely turned the narrative on its head.  We can't seem to score a lot of goals at 5 on 5, but we're still a slightly above average 5 on 5 team with a +2 goal differential at 5 on 5.  This is due to our excellent goaltending at 5 on 5 in Demko and our team defense at 5 on 5 being above average.  We are actually the 3rd best team in the NHL only allowing 50 5 on 5 goals, with only Carolina and Calgary ahead of us while playing 3 fewer games than us.  I only realized this after seeing in 31 Thoughts this week that OEL had only been on the ice for 9 5 on 5 goals this year (2 last game against the Kraken), the only defenseman fewer than 10 this year with at least 500 5 on 5 minutes played.

 

Despite the numbers, the media still considers our defense 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly'.  Even the last couple days, I've heard almost every radio show or talking head describe our defense that way.  However, by the eye test, especially post Boudreau, our defense has looked as sound as any team in the league and the numbers show it.  The worst our defense has been by the numbers is average, and that's still way better than the rest of the media has described it.  So why do the media keep harping on the defense, despite us being one of the lowest scoring teams in the league and arguing that we need defensive upgrades when the defense has been the only thing with our team that has been good this year?  We're currently 12th in xGA/60 at 5 on 5.  So at worst we have the 12th best defense in the NHL which is way better than 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly' and that's not including the Demko factor at 5 on 5.  So what do the Canucks have to do to appease everyone that we're not a Montreal, Ottawa, or Edmonton tire fire defensively?

[Phil_314]

They're probably referring to what they see about the team (quite literally) on paper.

Worst PK % in the league, no matter the winning streak, would still make for a talking point, as does Petey's "struggles", especially in a hockey hotbed like ours.

[King Heffy]

It'll take a while to wash the stain of Baumgartner away.

[Coconuts]

It hasn't been bad this last stretch of ten or so games, but that's a rather small sample size given how the season's gone. But it's definitely questionable when you consider how it's constructed. Our defense certainly ain't spectacular and has questions on RD going forward. If this roster currently has a strength it's probably it's top 9, if we've got a weakness it's probably.. well, defense. 

 

OEL's been fine, but I can't help but wonder if Benning made that sort of move a year or two too early. Regardless of how he players we're stuck with him at this point. 

 

Myers has looked better, but he'll be 32 in under a month and 34 by the time he deal is up. We've nobody in the system ready to step up and eat top 4RD minutes. I'd be looking to get younger once his deal expires.

 

Hughes, we all know what Hughes is, but he's also the only top 4D we have who's 25 or younger. We should definitely look to get younger on D if we can. 

 

Hamonic hasn't played enough this season to really get a gauge on where he's at, but he's got a season left on his deal and any replacement via UFA would absolutely cost more than the 3M he's currently making.

 

Schenn is fine in a bottom pairing role, he is what he is. Burroughs has played alright this season, but he's no more than a bottom pairing/depth guy. If our D was constructed better I'd be surprised to see much of him. Hunt probably shouldn't see NHL ice, but it is what it is. 

 

Poolman's looked alright when played as a bottom pairing guy, which is what he is. 

 

 

[KyGuy123]

Brad Shaw 

[fanfor42]

Year to date:

 

Canucks goals for per game  is 2.53  28th in the league

 

Canucks goals against per game is 2.74  12th in the league.

 

Supports what the OP is saying.

 

Personally I think Hughes and OEL are full value as top 4 D men.  The surprise for me this year is that, since Boudreau,  Myers is also playing like a top four D man.

 

I think the media is lazy.  They saw Hughes struggle last year.  They thought OEL would be past his prime and they see no one else on the Canucks D having top 4 potential. . They have not re evaluated their positions in the last 10 games so that is why you still see the old trotted out Canucks d is suspect.

 

Having said all that we still need to add a legit 2RD to have a really solid defense.

 

 

 

 

[Rindiculous]

11 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It hasn't been bad this last stretch of ten or so games, but that's a rather small sample size given how the season's gone. But it's definitely questionable when you consider how it's constructed. Our defense certainly ain't spectacular and has questions on RD going forward. If this roster currently has a strength it's probably it's top 9, if we've got a weakness it's probably.. well, defense. 

 

OEL's been fine, but I can't help but wonder if Benning made that sort of move a year or two too early. Regardless of how he players we're stuck with him at this point. 

 

Myers has looked better, but he'll be 32 in under a month and 34 by the time he deal is up. We've nobody in the system ready to step up and eat top 4RD minutes. I'd be looking to get younger once his deal expires.

 

Hughes, we all know what Hughes is, but he's also the only top 4D we have who's 25 or younger. We should definitely look to get younger on D if we can. 

 

Hamonic hasn't played enough this season to really get a gauge on where he's at, but he's got a season left on his deal and any replacement via UFA would absolutely cost more than the 3M he's currently making.

 

Schenn is fine in a bottom pairing role, he is what he is. Burroughs has played alright this season, but he's no more than a bottom pairing/depth guy. If our D was constructed better I'd be surprised to see much of him. Hunt probably shouldn't see NHL ice, but it is what it is. 

 

Poolman's looked alright when played as a bottom pairing guy, which is what he is. 

 

 

But strictly by the numbers, our team was just as good defensively 5 on 5 under Green as Boudreau.  The only change is an uptick in the offense 5 on 5.  We've been very good defensively all year.  All the numbers I've used were numbers over this entire season and we've still allowed the 3rd fewest 5 on 5 goals this year.

 

On your point of our D being old, yes it is, but people our considering our defense is bad right now, which objectively it is not.  PK% is completely different than team defense and I've honestly blamed the PK more on the system and the forward utilization rather than the defense.  They've cleared the front of the net decently well on the PK.

 

We are currently 34 games into a season where we've objectively been good on defense and the media and a lot of the fans have no reevaluated how good we are defensively.  Maybe it's Brad Shaw a bit, but with the names on D I think they're almost all severely underrated.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Rindiculous

[King Heffy]

11 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

It hasn't been bad this last stretch of ten or so games, but that's a rather small sample size given how the season's gone. But it's definitely questionable when you consider how it's constructed. Our defense certainly ain't spectacular and has questions on RD going forward. If this roster currently has a strength it's probably it's top 9, if we've got a weakness it's probably.. well, defense. 

 

OEL's been fine, but I can't help but wonder if Benning made that sort of move a year or two too early. Regardless of how he players we're stuck with him at this point. 

 

Myers has looked better, but he'll be 32 in under a month and 34 by the time he deal is up. We've nobody in the system ready to step up and eat top 4RD minutes. I'd be looking to get younger once his deal expires.

 

Hughes, we all know what Hughes is, but he's also the only top 4D we have who's 25 or younger. We should definitely look to get younger on D if we can. 

 

Hamonic hasn't played enough this season to really get a gauge on where he's at, but he's got a season left on his deal and any replacement via UFA would absolutely cost more than the 3M he's currently making.

 

Schenn is fine in a bottom pairing role, he is what he is. Burroughs has played alright this season, but he's no more than a bottom pairing/depth guy. If our D was constructed better I'd be surprised to see much of him. Hunt probably shouldn't see NHL ice, but it is what it is. 

 

Poolman's looked alright when played as a bottom pairing guy, which is what he is. 

 

 

Look at the recent signings.  Toronto's paying more money to Rielly for 8 years despite him being unable to play defence than we are for OEL.

Edited January 6, 2022 by King Heffy

[Ghostsof1915]

Myers has been a target since he got here. OEL not quite as much, but there's still rumblings in the media. 

[Nuxfanabroad]

A big, tough & exp'd Lhd man would prob fit the bill.

 

Van: Poolman & Rathbone

Habs: Edmundson

 

If Joel Edmundson got back on their active roster(injury & fam matters), I'd really like such a deal.

& agree with the OP, our D ain't what the media/naysayers portrayed.

 

edit:

 

OEL - Myers

Hughes - Schenn

Edmundson - Hamonic

 

& Burroughs

 

^ Such a d-core has a bit of everything, at a very decent price tag/AAV

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Nuxfanabroad

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, Rindiculous said:

But strictly by the numbers, our team was just as good defensively 5 on 5 under Green as Boudreau.  The only change is an uptick in the offense 5 on 5.  We've been very good defensively all year.  All the numbers I've used were numbers over this entire season and we've still allowed the 3rd fewest 5 on 5 goals this year.

 

On your point of our D being old, yes it is, but people our considering our defense is bad right now, which objectively it is not.  PK% is completely different than team defense and I've honestly blamed the PK more on the system and the forward utilization rather than the defense.  They've cleared the front of the net decently well on the PK.

 

We are currently 34 games into a season where we've objectively been good on defense and the media and a lot of the fans have no reevaluated how good we are defensively.  Maybe it's Brad Shaw a bit, but with the names on D I think they're almost all severely underrated.

The defense in general has probably been underrated, definitely, a lot of our early losses were on the back of our awful special teams. I think it could be better, and I'm hoping we see improvements on RD going forward, but it could absolutely be worse. 

[Coconuts]

4 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Look at the recent signings.  Toronto's paying more money to Rielly for 8 years despite him being unable to play defence than we are for OEL.

Don't get me wrong, I think OEL's been fine and I wasn't upset when he was acquired, I just question whether the timeline was right. 

[Maniwaki Canuck]

52 minutes ago, Rindiculous said:

It's been a narrative since the beginning of the season.  Most of us and the media thought we'd score a lot of goals, but we'd also allow a lot of goals.  Of course, me being the optimist I am, I thought we'd be a really good team 5 on 5 scoring a lot of goals and not allowing a lot of goals because I thought we significantly upgraded our defense core with OEL while having a passable right side with Hamonic and Poolman.  I don't think anyone expected our offense to tank this hard so I guess I was half right lol.

 

However, getting close to the halfway point of the season, we have completely turned the narrative on its head.  We can't seem to score a lot of goals at 5 on 5, but we're still a slightly above average 5 on 5 team with a +2 goal differential at 5 on 5.  This is due to our excellent goaltending at 5 on 5 in Demko and our team defense at 5 on 5 being above average.  We are actually the 3rd best team in the NHL only allowing 50 5 on 5 goals, with only Carolina and Calgary ahead of us while playing 3 fewer games than us.  I only realized this after seeing in 31 Thoughts this week that OEL had only been on the ice for 9 5 on 5 goals this year (2 last game against the Kraken), the only defenseman fewer than 10 this year with at least 500 5 on 5 minutes played.

 

Despite the numbers, the media still considers our defense 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly'.  Even the last couple days, I've heard almost every radio show or talking head describe our defense that way.  However, by the eye test, especially post Boudreau, our defense has looked as sound as any team in the league and the numbers show it.  The worst our defense has been by the numbers is average, and that's still way better than the rest of the media has described it.  So why do the media keep harping on the defense, despite us being one of the lowest scoring teams in the league and arguing that we need defensive upgrades when the defense has been the only thing with our team that has been good this year?  We're currently 12th in xGA/60 at 5 on 5.  So at worst we have the 12th best defense in the NHL which is way better than 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly' and that's not including the Demko factor at 5 on 5.  So what do the Canucks have to do to appease everyone that we're not a Montreal, Ottawa, or Edmonton tire fire defensively?

Thank you.  This realization should call into question the received wisdom and most of the trade proposals on this board.  Hopefully Rutherford sees the reality of this team's performance as opposed to the established narrative.

[Moe Knows]

Yeah our defense appears weak on paper but OEL has been solid defensively even though he is probably past his years when he was a dominant guy. Hughes has been much better defensively while still being his amazing offensive self. Schenn has been solid and a pleasant surprise playing big minutes and hitting as usual and being a plus player. Myers has really stepped it up of late. Poolman and Harmonic have  been OK. Burroughs has had some good moments. Hunt has been Meh. We just need one more solid RH defenseman and I think we'll be good to go. Butt I'm a hopeless optimist.

[AV.]

When you've got the talent ID, you just know when things are bad or good.

That's all there is to it.

[Me_]

The media thinks it’s Royalty and when their words are contradicted they are stubborn to change course and has a need to repeat its collective rhetoric ad infinitum.

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Me_

[CanucksJay]

3 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

A big, tough & exp'd Lhd man would prob fit the bill.

 

Van: Poolman & Rathbone

Habs: Edmundson

 

If Joel Edmundson got back on their active roster(injury & fam matters), I'd really like such a deal.

& agree with the OP, our D ain't what the media/naysayers portrayed.

 

edit:

 

OEL - Myers

Hughes - Schenn

Edmundson - Hamonic

 

& Burroughs

 

^ Such a d-core has a bit of everything, at a very decent price tag/AAV

 

 

Lol this goes against what the OP has written. Our defence has been fine so why would we trade poolie and a good young prospect when the defense hasn't let us down?

[VancouverHabitant]

I've had no issues with our defense this year.  

 

That's the narrative that's been written this off-season and media is refusing to actually look at the play on the ice that's contradicted them.  Our biggest need is a quality, middle of the lineup center IMO.  

 

Schenn - Hughes 

Myers - OEL 

 

Those two pairings can eat up 70% of the minutes, and I'm really not that concerned with having a combination of Poolman, Burroughs or Hamonic out there as the 3rd pairing. 

[lmm]

3 hours ago, Coconuts said:

The defense in general has probably been underrated, definitely, a lot of our early losses were on the back of our awful special teams. I think it could be better, and I'm hoping we see improvements on RD going forward, but it could absolutely be worse. 

I think its funny how much talk there is about RD

but if Quinn Hughes and OEL were to miss the same game

we'd be looking at 5 righties and Brad Hunt

[Me_]

There’s a reason Schenn chose Vancouver; Hughes.

 

All 5OA08 Schenn has to do, is show up, play his game as best he can and that’s because his game complements Hughes immensely. 
 

Hughes is a superstar. Schenn is around here to keep the opposition honest. And pass to Hughes.

 

And how good has Myers become playing with OEL. That is a great duo and they don’t make it easy to play against. 
 

By the time all is said and done, this top 4 defense is heavily underrated. 
 

Edited January 6, 2022 by Me_