Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

Why Does The Media And Many Fans Still Consider Our Defense Suspect?

Rate this topic


Rindiculous

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Me_ said:

The media thinks it’s Royalty and when their words are contradicted they are stubborn to change course and has a need to repeat its collective rhetoric.

 


The media is like a train in that once it builds a head of steam it’s incredibly hard to stop or change direction. People who are too lazy or spend little to no time watching the team just pile on the train and don’t bother making an informed judgement. 
 

The recent drivel about OEL being bad because his offence is down would be lining the bottom of a birdcage in the days of newspapers.

  • Like 1
  • Vintage 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right now it's 'fine'. Probably about league average (as I expected) and far better than the doom and gloom some were predicting. I figure if we want to be contenders, we need better than 'league average' and 'fine' though.

 

Besides that, next year is the last year of Hamonic and Schenn. The year after that Myers expires. We NEED a succession plan there.

 

So we need to improve to contend and we need a succession plan. Ergo, we need to make changes, get younger and improve our D.

Edited by aGENT
  • Vintage 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Year to date:

 

Canucks goals for per game  is 2.53  28th in the league

 

Canucks goals against per game is 2.74  12th in the league.

 

Supports what the OP is saying.

 

Personally I think Hughes and OEL are full value as top 4 D men.  The surprise for me this year is that, since Boudreau,  Myers is also playing like a top four D man.

 

I think the media is lazy.  They saw Hughes struggle last year.  They thought OEL would be past his prime and they see no one else on the Canucks D having top 4 potential. . They have not re evaluated their positions in the last 10 games so that is why you still see the old trotted out Canucks d is suspect.

 

Having said all that we still need to add a legit 2RD to have a really solid defense.

 

 

 

 

Eh, I mean. We give up the 11th most shots against per game, and have the 12th best GAA. As well as the 9th best save percentage. So I give the lion's share of the credit to Demko/Halak rather than our defense. Of the 12 teams that give up more shots against than Vancouver only 3 have better save percentages, one of which is literally a fraction of a percent better (They have .915 to our .914). On a side note, Shesterkin is playing outta his mind this year given his team defense. Reason why I bring up shots against is cause looking at the teams that give up more shots against than we do, their bluelines are pretty suspect to pretty awful.

 

Long story short, I don't think the media is entirely wrong about our defense. But I also don't think it's as bad as some say. Button for instance talks about our blueline like it needs 2-3 big pieces. I truly believe with one more really good top 4 RHD we are a contending team. Myers is a legit top 4 in my books, always has been. Hughes and OEL are legit too. 

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Right now it's 'fine'. Probably about league average (as I expected) and far better than the doom and gloom some were predicting. I figure if we want to be contenders, we need better than 'league average' and 'fine' though.

 

Besides that, next year is the last year of Hamonic and Schenn. The year after that Myers expires. We NEED a succession plan there.

 

So we need to improve to contend and we need a succession plan. Ergo, we need to make changes, get younger and improve our D.

Woo and likely a trade sort that out.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm really surprised that we're doing well defense wise WITHOUT having Hamonic in full time. I thought we'd really need him. This bodes well for our no name group behind OEL, Hughes, and Myers. Defense by committee for sure. If we get into playoff contention and hopefully have a new EP and a new Hamonic, this will add to the roster. I like our chances.

If not Hamonic would be a great trade piece. 

  • Vintage 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Rindiculous said:

It's been a narrative since the beginning of the season.  Most of us and the media thought we'd score a lot of goals, but we'd also allow a lot of goals.  Of course, me being the optimist I am, I thought we'd be a really good team 5 on 5 scoring a lot of goals and not allowing a lot of goals because I thought we significantly upgraded our defense core with OEL while having a passable right side with Hamonic and Poolman.  I don't think anyone expected our offense to tank this hard so I guess I was half right lol.

 

However, getting close to the halfway point of the season, we have completely turned the narrative on its head.  We can't seem to score a lot of goals at 5 on 5, but we're still a slightly above average 5 on 5 team with a +2 goal differential at 5 on 5.  This is due to our excellent goaltending at 5 on 5 in Demko and our team defense at 5 on 5 being above average.  We are actually the 3rd best team in the NHL only allowing 50 5 on 5 goals, with only Carolina and Calgary ahead of us while playing 3 fewer games than us.  I only realized this after seeing in 31 Thoughts this week that OEL had only been on the ice for 9 5 on 5 goals this year (2 last game against the Kraken), the only defenseman fewer than 10 this year with at least 500 5 on 5 minutes played.

 

Despite the numbers, the media still considers our defense 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly'.  Even the last couple days, I've heard almost every radio show or talking head describe our defense that way.  However, by the eye test, especially post Boudreau, our defense has looked as sound as any team in the league and the numbers show it.  The worst our defense has been by the numbers is average, and that's still way better than the rest of the media has described it.  So why do the media keep harping on the defense, despite us being one of the lowest scoring teams in the league and arguing that we need defensive upgrades when the defense has been the only thing with our team that has been good this year?  We're currently 12th in xGA/60 at 5 on 5.  So at worst we have the 12th best defense in the NHL which is way better than 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly' and that's not including the Demko factor at 5 on 5.  So what do the Canucks have to do to appease everyone that we're not a Montreal, Ottawa, or Edmonton tire fire defensively?

Who cares about appeasing everyone - Let's just win like we are::D
 
The 5v5 has been a massive surprise, considering they were near last in nearly every defensive metric the last 5 years
They have gone from brutal to average now (where the Meh comes in you mentioned) where they are near mid pack on Corsi against, Expected goals against, Scoring chances against
 
Demko has been propping up league average defence and is one of the league leading goalies at 5v5
Halak has had even better 5v5 numbers (without the wins)
 
Surprisingly when i last checked, after 7 games of BB, our defensive ratings numbers fell further in Corsi against and scoring chances against
 
Green may have had the defence playing slightly better, but it impacted the effectiveness of the offence (not to mention they couldn't hit the net) But BB has also not had a fully healthy defensive line-up either
Demko's save % since BB has also been unrealistic to expect all year as well
 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Woo and likely a trade sort that out.  

Woo hopefully develops to be a 3rd pair replacement for us moving forward. Agreed.

 

Who's playing the other two pairs when Myers, Hamonic and Schenn are gone in two, one and one seasons?

 

Some of us see the obvious answer of trading Miller as the answer to one of those questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Woo hopefully develops to be a 3rd pair replacement for us moving forward. Agreed.

 

Who's playing the other two pairs when Myers, Hamonic and Schenn are gone in two, one and one seasons?

 

Some of us see the obvious answer of trading Miller as the answer to one of those questions.

Why don't we just re-allocate the nearly 10M that Myers, Hamonic and Schenn make to other RD once they're gone?  It makes no sense to trade Miller to get a replacement RD now when we're already awash in them.  If he won't re-sign of course we should deal him, but for the best return, not necessarily an RD.  And if he wants to stay at manageable price/term, we'd be nuts to trade him. 

  • Cheers 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Maniwaki Canuck said:

Why don't we just re-allocate the nearly 10M that Myers, Hamonic and Schenn make to other RD once they're gone?  It makes no sense to trade Miller to get a replacement RD now when we're already awash in them.  If he won't re-sign of course we should deal him, but for the best return, not necessarily an RD.  And if he wants to stay at manageable price/term, we'd be nuts to trade him. 

Other players need raises too (Horvat, Boeser Hoglander, Podkolzin) and we have other holes to fill as well. That money is gone before you know it.

 

We are not 'awash' in top 4 RD. And again, the largely depth D we do have, expire soon.

 

Miller has very little reason to sign for less term and dollars here than he can get elsewhere. People need to accept that is more likely we're not extending him than are, and it would be prudent to plan ahead for that eventuality.

Edited by aGENT
  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Woo hopefully develops to be a 3rd pair replacement for us moving forward. Agreed.

 

Who's playing the other two pairs when Myers, Hamonic and Schenn are gone in two, one and one seasons?

 

Some of us see the obvious answer of trading Miller as the answer to one of those questions.

You mean some of you have latched onto the thought of trading Miller

 

its like glitter around here 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Other players need raises too (Horvat, Boeser Hoglander, Podkolzin) and we have other holes to fill as well. That money is gone before you know it.

 

We are not 'awash' in top 4 RD. And again, the largely depth D we do have, expire soon.

 

Miller has very little reason to sign for less term and dollars here than he can get elsewhere. People need to accept that is more likely we're not extending him than are, and it would be prudent to plan ahead for that eventuality.

This ground has been covered extensively on other threads:  there is enough money to keep our top forwards if that's what we want to do.  Let's not speculate about what Miller wants:  that's not something that's going to be resolved here.  Yes, our better RD will have their contracts expire in the coming years.  But in a cap world, you can't stockpile top 4 D just because some will be leaving.  Myers, Hamonic, Poolman, Schenn, Burroughs and Woo is excellent depth on the right side:  the first 4 of those can and have played top 4 minutes.  Upgrading on one of those guys when they move on would be great if it can be done without paying a huge premium but it isn't a reason to trade Miller.  OP's whole point is that our D has been performing better than our offense.  This needs to sink into the thinking around here.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I've observed from following the media and a chunk of our fanbase (people I know personally; friends, family, comments on social media), is that they view hockey in a very black and white manner. The team is either a cup contender, or just awful. Many of them don't even watch the games, just blindly believe the echo chamber guys like Drance, Macintyre, etc project. The nuances that impact this team are often ignored or completely overlooked. However, many people who watch this team game in, game out, along with watching a lot of the rest of the NHL play, knew pretty well all along that our defense is quite solid. I'd say when healthy, we're top 15 in the NHL. 

 

The problem all along was the horrid system the defense and our entire team was made to play. Green and Baumgartner enforced a playing style which was so incompetent that it made the defense look like it was that bad. We have two bonafide number 1 defensemen in Hughes and OEL. Yes, OEL is still a number 1 defenseman. The rest of the D is rounded up by guys like Myers, Poolman, Hamonic, etc that are very solid players themselves in their roles. We can still upgrade, no doubt, but we are by no means weak defensively and all numbers are pointing to this fact. 

 

We have a very volatile fanbase and toxic media. This is a just a fact we have to live with. Best thing to do is try to educate the people that we know bit by bit about the nuances of the game and what is actually unfolding with all factors considered. I'm not trying to be condescending, I don't like arguing with people about hockey at all, but it just gets extremely annoying when people who know very little about the game constantly whine about it the loudest. 

 

 

  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

Woo hopefully develops to be a 3rd pair replacement for us moving forward. Agreed.

 

Who's playing the other two pairs when Myers, Hamonic and Schenn are gone in two, one and one seasons?

 

Some of us see the obvious answer of trading Miller as the answer to one of those questions.

Free agency?  We did it with Myers, Hamonic and Schenn so why not again?

  • Like 1
  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally I think that Myers has been criminally underrated since he got here, he hasn't shown any signs of regression at all as he ages and seems to be getting better, I think this is due to his size.  If this continues I'd hope to re-sign him another 2 years hopefully for around $3.5-4 million at the end of his contract. Schenn and Hamonic I think will not be worth re-signing, so hopefully Woo can step up and we can pick someone up with the left over cap space. The other thing is someone no one is expecting can show up and surprise.  No one had Bieska on their radar before he joined the team.  Someone in our system could be way better than we think.

Edited by thrago
  • Like 2
  • Cheers 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This won't be well accepted on this forum,  but the Green focus this year was on team defense and puck possession.   For whomever wants to look NHL.com did a decent job going over this post Green and about 5 games into our winning streak.   The habits from the old coach doesn't just disappear overnight, not after game one, or two or three or four or five.   What Bruce has done is come in and set the lines properly (Green tried this but too late and not for long enough), and unleashed the shackles.   

 

  We've been a decent 5 x 5 team all season.   Our PK, plus EP and BBoeser not producing was our achilles heel all of Green's season, and not using his players properly (lines).   Bruce doesn't try and put square pegs in round holes.   And is 100% refreshing.    That's helped a lot.   Bruce has dumbed it down, and Green parting gift is those habits are still there.   "We don't know what we are doing"  ....  Well turns out they do, and unleashing the chance to score has helped a lot - same with thank god - bye bye bye good riddance five man box.   Pushing the blue line is such a breath of fresh air.   Bruce wants the team in the O-zone.   And thank god we are finally rolling three lines.   Why the heck wouldn't we with 3 fantastic c's when we have this many decent-great wingers?

 

As for our D, not all media is trashing it.   OEL/Myers is a legit top line 5 x 5.   Myers has 10 points so far ... not too shabby either.   Most "top" D's have around 25 by the end of the season.  Rest are scored on the PP.    Our D on paper might be one thing media types can debate, but absolutely we are in the 10-12 range, higher then we've been since 2014.    During the Edler/Tanev/Hutton/Del-zotto days, we were mid 20's.     Is it enough for a long playoff run?   Maybe.   Demko is our best chance at that no matter how you slice it.   But we also have one thing a lot of teams don't - as Bruce said when he came here - what teams have a center depth group like ours?    Maybe 5 teams, us included.     That's our team strength and he's using it.   Thanks Green, for over complicating things - those lessons for sure won't go away, and even more so thank you Bruce for unshackling our team and creating lines that actually make sense. 

  • Like 1
  • Cheers 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

This won't be well accepted on this forum,  but the Green focus this year was on team defense and puck possession.   For whomever wants to look NHL.com did a decent job going over this post Green and about 5 games into our winning streak.   The habits from the old coach doesn't just disappear overnight, not after game one, or two or three or four or five.   What Bruce has done is come in and set the lines properly (Green tried this but too late and not for long enough), and unleashed the shackles.   

 

  We've been a decent 5 x 5 team all season.   Our PK, plus EP and BBoeser not producing was our achilles heel all of Green's season, and not using his players properly (lines).   Bruce doesn't try and put square pegs in round holes.   And is 100% refreshing.    That's helped a lot.   Bruce has dumbed it down, and Green parting gift is those habits are still there.   "We don't know what we are doing"  ....  Well turns out they do, and unleashing the chance to score has helped a lot - same with thank god - bye bye bye good riddance five man box.   Pushing the blue line is such a breath of fresh air.   Bruce wants the team in the O-zone.   And thank god we are finally rolling three lines.   Why the heck wouldn't we with 3 fantastic c's when we have this many decent-great wingers?

 

As for our D, not all media is trashing it.   OEL/Myers is a legit top line 5 x 5.   Myers has 10 points so far ... not too shabby either.   Most "top" D's have around 25 by the end of the season.  Rest are scored on the PP.    Our D on paper might be one thing media types can debate, but absolutely we are in the 10-12 range, higher then we've been since 2014.    During the Edler/Tanev/Hutton/Del-zotto days, we were mid 20's.     Is it enough for a long playoff run?   Maybe.   Demko is our best chance at that no matter how you slice it.   But we also have one thing a lot of teams don't - as Bruce said when he came here - what teams have a center depth group like ours?    Maybe 5 teams, us included.     That's our team strength and he's using it.   Thanks Green, for over complicating things - those lessons for sure won't go away, and even more so thank you Bruce for unshackling our team and creating lines that actually make sense. 

I don't think Green was a bad coach, but I do think he should have come into the league as an assistant coach.  I think that the lack of tools he had to work with due to his lack of experience, plus the fact he was surrounded with other rookie coach's put him in a situation that when his system wasn't working he didn't know what to do to fix it.  I think if his next gig is as an assistant coach under an experienced coach he can go on to have a good career or even if he had more experienced assistants, would help him out a lot as well.

  • Cheers 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, thrago said:

I don't think Green was a bad coach, but I do think he should have come into the league as an assistant coach.  I think that the lack of tools he had to work with due to his lack of experience, plus the fact he was surrounded with other rookie coach's put him in a situation that when his system wasn't working he didn't know what to do to fix it.  I think if his next gig is as an assistant coach under an experienced coach he can go on to have a good career or even if he had more experienced assistants, would help him out a lot as well.

Probably should have.   But he was a head coach for quite some time ... he did come in the right way ... 2008 is quite a lot of time he put into his craft, and given other teams also wanted to hire him understand why we did.   I don't think our teams overachieved or underachieved overall while he was here - but am glad he's gone and JB too.  We needed finishers in both regards.   Time will tell if he's a good or bad or average NHL coach once he gets another gig.   One thing he did well was keep the effort level up.  Think a rebuilding team would offer him a job.  

  • Cheers 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Probably should have.   But he was a head coach for quite some time ... he did come in the right way ... 2008 is quite a lot of time he put into his craft, and given other teams also wanted to hire him understand why we did.   I don't think our teams overachieved or underachieved overall while he was here - but am glad he's gone and JB too.  We needed finishers in both regards.   Time will tell if he's a good or bad or average NHL coach once he gets another gig.   One thing he did well was keep the effort level up.  Think a rebuilding team would offer him a job.  

I think he was a excellent developmental coach but lacked experience on how to take it to the next level after that so a rebuilding team would work well for him. But I still think if he wants to take it to the next level he should get a few years under an experienced coach, whether or not that's something he is willing to do is another story though.   

  • Cheers 1
  • Vintage 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...