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Why Does The Media And Many Fans Still Consider Our Defense Suspect?

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Rindiculous

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1 hour ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

There was a poster or two trying to make the case that the D wasn't that bad before Bruce B. got here. And they were laughed at and called a Benning bros. I was one of them. But its good to see some ppl coming around on it. In the middle of the losing streak, ppl were actually saying that Myers shouldn't be in the top 4 at all. The whole media got in on it. Jeff Paterson and his whole group. Even Yannick Hansen in his interviews was slagging off the D. I'll give Hansen credit for speaking his mind though.

 

OEL Myers and Hughs is solid. Just need a journeyman 4th guy and Poolman is looking like that now. Burroughs is good. Rathbone hasn't played under Bruce B. He looked decent even under Green.

 

 

I went one step further and said this was a good roster. Always defended Myers even with ppl calling him Tyler Minors etc. He showed his value in the Blues series. Only big physical guy on our back end that year. It took Schenn running him from behind to knock him out of the lineup but Schenn knew what he was doing on that play. 

When Vegas was paying out 3:1 for Canucks making the playoffs this year, I went in heavy. Green almost lost it for me but ive regained hope lol. 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

demko is the only reason this defense looks better than it is stat wise.. considering we have the 3rd most expensive defense unit in the league.. you expect much better. they are neither good or bad just average.. and 0 value for how much it cost. Also the fact they contribute next to nothing offensively other than hughes.. 7 goals scored by our defenseman put us near last in the league.. most teams occupying a playoff position their defense contribute double to quadruple the amount of goals our defense scores. if they were getting a lot of assist then i guess that's ok.. but that's not even the case.. other than hughes.. not much contribution from the defense offensively period.. they don't score.. and they don't play air tight defense and they are paid the 3rd most in the league.. therefore they are suspect.. 

Yeah i do agree Demko would make any defence better. 

I do wonder though how we do on the expected goals for vs against stat. 

I know it's gone in our favor since BB took over but it was tilted the other way when TG was here. Demko used to have to stand on his head for us to win but lately it seems that the team is usually on the right side of the expected goals stat. 

If our guys continue to learn and improve under BB, and fully understand the system BB wants them to play, i think our D can continue this run. 

The 10 games includong SE road trip (after Sens game) will tell us whether we are pretenders or legit.

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On 1/5/2022 at 6:01 PM, Phil_314 said:

They're probably referring to what they see about the team (quite literally) on paper.

Worst PK % in the league, no matter the winning streak, would still make for a talking point, as does Petey's "struggles", especially in a hockey hotbed like ours.

I call BS on that. They're digging for trouble, period. That's all.

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On 1/6/2022 at 3:27 AM, fanfor42 said:

Year to date:

 

Canucks goals for per game  is 2.53  28th in the league

 

Canucks goals against per game is 2.74  12th in the league.

 

Supports what the OP is saying.

 

Personally I think Hughes and OEL are full value as top 4 D men.  The surprise for me this year is that, since Boudreau,  Myers is also playing like a top four D man.

 

I think the media is lazy.  They saw Hughes struggle last year.  They thought OEL would be past his prime and they see no one else on the Canucks D having top 4 potential. . They have not re evaluated their positions in the last 10 games so that is why you still see the old trotted out Canucks d is suspect.

 

Having said all that we still need to add a legit 2RD to have a really solid defense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Vancouver wouldn't have those counting stats without Demko in net.  There's a reason Rutherford calls him a franchise goalie.

 

The tracking company CSA had him saving nearly 40 goals above expected this past calendar year - in 61 games that's the equivalent of 2 goals every 3 games or 0.66 better than expected per game.  

 

CSA looks at the full context of the play that leads to a shot - number of screens, passing plays etc.  It gives an indication of how a goalie is performing based on the environment he is operating in.

 

Even setting aside how strongly counting stats are influenced by goalie performance, a solid D-corps isn't just about their goals allowed.

 

If a team is spending a lot of their time playing in their own end because they can't move the puck out that's hardly ideal.  Their transition game, neutral zone play and how they allow the team to pressure offensively also matters.  Do the Ds have the skills to make a clean break out pass, play a possession game or are they just dumping the puck.  Are they efficient at preventing zone entries, can they hold the line when the team is pressuring offensively, can they make plays, are they turning the puck over when pressured, etc.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, mll said:

 

 

Vancouver wouldn't have those counting stats without Demko in net.  There's a reason Rutherford calls him a franchise goalie.

 

The tracking company CSA had him saving nearly 40 goals above expected this past calendar year - in 61 games that's the equivalent of 2 goals every 3 games or 0.66 better than expected per game.  

 

CSA looks at the full context of the play that leads to a shot - number of screens, passing plays etc.  It gives an indication of how a goalie is performing based on the environment he is operating in.

 

Even setting aside how strongly counting stats are influenced by goalie performance, a solid D-corps isn't just about their goals allowed.

 

If a team is spending a lot of their time playing in their own end because they can't move the puck out that's hardly ideal.  Their transition game, neutral zone play and how they allow the team to pressure offensively also matters.  Do the Ds have the skills to make a clean break out pass, play a possession game or are they just dumping the puck.  Are they efficient at preventing zone entries, can they hold the line when the team is pressuring offensively, can they make plays, are they turning the puck over when pressured, etc.

 

 

 

What's your point?

 

The OP says why does the media and others still say our D is suspect?

 

You make a bunch of points about how Demko improves the stats of our D.  Ok so what?

 

What is your point about our D? Why do others think they are suspect?  Can you answer the OP's question?

 

 

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On 1/5/2022 at 5:54 PM, Rindiculous said:

It's been a narrative since the beginning of the season.  Most of us and the media thought we'd score a lot of goals, but we'd also allow a lot of goals.  Of course, me being the optimist I am, I thought we'd be a really good team 5 on 5 scoring a lot of goals and not allowing a lot of goals because I thought we significantly upgraded our defense core with OEL while having a passable right side with Hamonic and Poolman.  I don't think anyone expected our offense to tank this hard so I guess I was half right lol.

 

However, getting close to the halfway point of the season, we have completely turned the narrative on its head.  We can't seem to score a lot of goals at 5 on 5, but we're still a slightly above average 5 on 5 team with a +2 goal differential at 5 on 5.  This is due to our excellent goaltending at 5 on 5 in Demko and our team defense at 5 on 5 being above average.  We are actually the 3rd best team in the NHL only allowing 50 5 on 5 goals, with only Carolina and Calgary ahead of us while playing 3 fewer games than us.  I only realized this after seeing in 31 Thoughts this week that OEL had only been on the ice for 9 5 on 5 goals this year (2 last game against the Kraken), the only defenseman fewer than 10 this year with at least 500 5 on 5 minutes played.

 

Despite the numbers, the media still considers our defense 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly'.  Even the last couple days, I've heard almost every radio show or talking head describe our defense that way.  However, by the eye test, especially post Boudreau, our defense has looked as sound as any team in the league and the numbers show it.  The worst our defense has been by the numbers is average, and that's still way better than the rest of the media has described it.  So why do the media keep harping on the defense, despite us being one of the lowest scoring teams in the league and arguing that we need defensive upgrades when the defense has been the only thing with our team that has been good this year?  We're currently 12th in xGA/60 at 5 on 5.  So at worst we have the 12th best defense in the NHL which is way better than 'meh' to 'yikes' to 'ugly' and that's not including the Demko factor at 5 on 5.  So what do the Canucks have to do to appease everyone that we're not a Montreal, Ottawa, or Edmonton tire fire defensively?

Honestly imo, it's lack of depth that makes me nervous more than anything and we're only another 3rd pairing Dman and a couple on depth and then I'd feel a lot better about it. I still wonder if Woo will ever get a shot, plus you have to love his name which would be as welcomed as Louuuuuu! but I'm not sure if he still likes to throw his weight around on hits but we sure could use that. 

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13 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

demko is the only reason this defense looks better than it is stat wise.. considering we have the 3rd most expensive defense unit in the league.. you expect much better. they are neither good or bad just average.. and 0 value for how much it cost. Also the fact they contribute next to nothing offensively other than hughes.. 7 goals scored by our defenseman put us near last in the league.. most teams occupying a playoff position their defense contribute double to quadruple the amount of goals our defense scores. if they were getting a lot of assist then i guess that's ok.. but that's not even the case.. other than hughes.. not much contribution from the defense offensively period.. they don't score.. and they don't play air tight defense and they are paid the 3rd most in the league.. therefore they are suspect.. 

A lot of other teams have great goaltending...one can say the biggest reason ANA is second in our division right now is because Gibson is a great goalie (he is, and has been for quite awhile), their D hasn't changed much at all since they were a bottom team recently either.   Markstrom as well of course.   CAL wouldn't be nearly as good as they were without him.     As for QHs, i'm not sure he will break Edlers goal scoring record while he's here ... nothing has shown me yet that his point shot will get him regularly into the double digits - maybe if he starts roaming in close and scoring like a forward does (which is why a lot of the former greats ended up with so many goals - both a great point shot and they went to the net) - but he more then makes up for that with his passing.   Points count too, not just goals.   

 

Agree we aren't getting excellent value on the scoresheet for the cost of our D's, was expecting more from OEL on the goal side of things...5 x 5 at least.   A lot of production from scoring D's comes on the power play...any D not on the PP that gets 20 points is pretty darn proficient/productive in this league, Myers is doing that - his 5 x 5 production is definitely decent.   Almost where Hughes is really.  

 

Also i tried but couldn't find the overall D spending (could you provide a link?  I'm too lazy to try and add it up on my own lol).  Have to think SJ is up there with their big three alone costing in the mid 20's..how close are we to other teams spending 1.5-2 less?   That is the cost of trading LE - don't at all mind eating that on OEL.    Know NSH and MIN spent a ton in the past, MIN still had the buyout on the books for Suter (Dumba and Spurgeon also are like Myers and OEL).... i'd theorize that puts us down range closer to where our D is actually valuated now, in the 12 range overall.  

 

It's also why quite a few of us are on board with trading a player to add to this.   Hamonic actually playing would help the cause too ... he's a solid bottom pairing guy on a good team that's for sure.    Our team really needed OJ to work out, it's truly unfortunate.   Overall our cap structure needs tweaking, as does our roster.  

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4 hours ago, IBatch said:

Agree we aren't getting excellent value on the scoresheet for the cost of our D's, was expecting more from OEL on the goal side of things...5 x 5 at least.   

I was expecting an overall drop given he won't get the PP reps here, he did in Arizona.

 

Otherwise, we need our F's scoring more 5v5, Pettersson especially. More scoring 5v5 and he's bound to get more apples simply with how much he's out there.

 

That said, his usage here is far more defensively/match up tilted. That's just going to equal less points no matter how you slice it.

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10 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

What's your point?

 

The OP says why does the media and others still say our D is suspect?

 

You make a bunch of points about how Demko improves the stats of our D.  Ok so what?

 

What is your point about our D? Why do others think they are suspect?  Can you answer the OP's question?

 

 

I don't know if he has to type more slowly.

Someone claimed that our average team defensive stats were due to our defencemen being average instead of bad.  He responded by pointing out that those numbers don't actually mean what is being claimed since a lot of different variables go into it than quality of our defencemen.  He supported that with a very relevant stat about expected saves above average showing how our numbers are significantly skewed to the positive due to stellar goaltending.

We have a top flight goalie who covers a lot of warts on the team.  We also had systems in place under the last coach where we had forwards covering for the defence (and resulted in really poor scoring).  All of that help only gets our numbers to the middle of the pack at best.

The various coaches, players, ex NHL execs who comprise a large chunk of the hockey media agree that our defence isn't good.  They simply know more than you or I do, and it is just ludicrous hubris for folks to stamp their feet and hold their breath pretending they are experts.

We need two more top 4D.  We have Hughes and OEL, that is it.  Myers has been on a really good streak since the new coach, but for his entire career has been inconsistent and starts floundering when too much is asked from him.  On a team with pretentions of being a contender, he should be a #5 guy.  Poolman, Hamonic, Schenn, Hunt, Burroughs, Brisebois, etc are all 3rd pairing to AHL calibre players and shouldn't be playing any time as top pairing or even top 4 defence.  The fact they have had to is due to lack of better options at the position.

Our team and organizational strength right now is at forward (specifically wingers) and in goal.  Our weakness is lacking enough D and D prospects.  If we want to have any sustained success we need to rectify that and it is hard to do.

 

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57 minutes ago, Provost said:

I don't know if he has to type more slowly.

Someone claimed that our average team defensive stats were due to our defencemen being average instead of bad.  He responded by pointing out that those numbers don't actually mean what is being claimed since a lot of different variables go into it than quality of our defencemen.  He supported that with a very relevant stat about expected saves above average showing how our numbers are significantly skewed to the positive due to stellar goaltending.

We have a top flight goalie who covers a lot of warts on the team.  We also had systems in place under the last coach where we had forwards covering for the defence (and resulted in really poor scoring).  All of that help only gets our numbers to the middle of the pack at best.

The various coaches, players, ex NHL execs who comprise a large chunk of the hockey media agree that our defence isn't good.  They simply know more than you or I do, and it is just ludicrous hubris for folks to stamp their feet and hold their breath pretending they are experts.

We need two more top 4D.  We have Hughes and OEL, that is it.  Myers has been on a really good streak since the new coach, but for his entire career has been inconsistent and starts floundering when too much is asked from him.  On a team with pretentions of being a contender, he should be a #5 guy.  Poolman, Hamonic, Schenn, Hunt, Burroughs, Brisebois, etc are all 3rd pairing to AHL calibre players and shouldn't be playing any time as top pairing or even top 4 defence.  The fact they have had to is due to lack of better options at the position.

Our team and organizational strength right now is at forward (specifically wingers) and in goal.  Our weakness is lacking enough D and D prospects.  If we want to have any sustained success we need to rectify that and it is hard to do.

 

Same could be said of Edler.   He's our all time leading scoring D is he not?   More out of sticking it out then anything, when too much was asked of him he led the league in minus.   To me at least Myers and Edler aren't too far apart in skill and career wise.   The stats back that up.   Myers was buried in WNP...but still when injuries happened he did admirably - i don't agree with that assessment of him, the same way i didn't agree with Edlers when he was asked to tow the line.   Led the league in minus one year.   Myers is fine as a top pairing, and he's fine as a top four D.   Don't know what you expect ... Trouba lol remember how many salivated at the idea of getting him?  Myers has done better - and he's 8 x 8.  Sure there are better RHDs, but not 60 of them.   Not even close actually.  

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5 hours ago, IBatch said:

A lot of other teams have great goaltending...one can say the biggest reason ANA is second in our division right now is because Gibson is a great goalie (he is, and has been for quite awhile), their D hasn't changed much at all since they were a bottom team recently either.   Markstrom as well of course.   CAL wouldn't be nearly as good as they were without him.     As for QHs, i'm not sure he will break Edlers goal scoring record while he's here ... nothing has shown me yet that his point shot will get him regularly into the double digits - maybe if he starts roaming in close and scoring like a forward does (which is why a lot of the former greats ended up with so many goals - both a great point shot and they went to the net) - but he more then makes up for that with his passing.   Points count too, not just goals.   

 

Agree we aren't getting excellent value on the scoresheet for the cost of our D's, was expecting more from OEL on the goal side of things...5 x 5 at least.   A lot of production from scoring D's comes on the power play...any D not on the PP that gets 20 points is pretty darn proficient/productive in this league, Myers is doing that - his 5 x 5 production is definitely decent.   Almost where Hughes is really.  

 

Also i tried but couldn't find the overall D spending (could you provide a link?  I'm too lazy to try and add it up on my own lol).  Have to think SJ is up there with their big three alone costing in the mid 20's..how close are we to other teams spending 1.5-2 less?   That is the cost of trading LE - don't at all mind eating that on OEL.    Know NSH and MIN spent a ton in the past, MIN still had the buyout on the books for Suter (Dumba and Spurgeon also are like Myers and OEL).... i'd theorize that puts us down range closer to where our D is actually valuated now, in the 12 range overall.  

 

It's also why quite a few of us are on board with trading a player to add to this.   Hamonic actually playing would help the cause too ... he's a solid bottom pairing guy on a good team that's for sure.    Our team really needed OJ to work out, it's truly unfortunate.   Overall our cap structure needs tweaking, as does our roster.  

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/positional/defenseman/full-cap/

 

our avg per player is somewhere in the middle of the league, but then that's because we have 5 contracts of 750-850k on the roster/including ir. if we were to look at the top 7 only on each team. we would be #3 in terms of cap spent on defense. with only tampa and wild because of the buy out ahead of us. but if we were to look at top 7 actualy players on the roster then we would be #2. 

 

i agree somewhat the higher end scoring D comes from the powerplay.. but tampa for example 17 of their 85 points by defensemen came from the powerplay. colorado who prolly leads the league in points by defenseman. only 22 of the 105 points came on the powerplay. our defense have 4 more points than arizona's defense with 2 games more played.. they ain't great defensively and they are horrible offensively. the lack of production from the defense for me hurts even more than the lack of production from the bottom 6. shut down the top 6 player u shut down the entire team's offense.

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On 1/5/2022 at 6:27 PM, fanfor42 said:

Year to date:

 

Canucks goals for per game  is 2.53  28th in the league

 

Canucks goals against per game is 2.74  12th in the league.

 

Supports what the OP is saying.

 

Personally I think Hughes and OEL are full value as top 4 D men.  The surprise for me this year is that, since Boudreau,  Myers is also playing like a top four D man.

 

I think the media is lazy.  They saw Hughes struggle last year.  They thought OEL would be past his prime and they see no one else on the Canucks D having top 4 potential. . They have not re evaluated their positions in the last 10 games so that is why you still see the old trotted out Canucks d is suspect.

 

Having said all that we still need to add a legit 2RD to have a really solid defense.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if all of the media is lazy but this basically answers OP.

 

Their predictions are almost always based on past statistics. OEL and Hughes struggled last season defensively. Our RDs aren't too impressive. We still don't have a 3LD. Therefore, our defence will suck.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Same could be said of Edler.   He's our all time leading scoring D is he not?   More out of sticking it out then anything, when too much was asked of him he led the league in minus.   To me at least Myers and Edler aren't too far apart in skill and career wise.   The stats back that up.   Myers was buried in WNP...but still when injuries happened he did admirably - i don't agree with that assessment of him, the same way i didn't agree with Edlers when he was asked to tow the line.   Led the league in minus one year.   Myers is fine as a top pairing, and he's fine as a top four D.   Don't know what you expect ... Trouba lol remember how many salivated at the idea of getting him?  Myers has done better - and he's 8 x 8.  Sure there are better RHDs, but not 60 of them.   Not even close actually.  

While I don't agree that Myers is close to Edler in terms of an all around defenceman... you also make my point.

Edler was great, but also miscast as a #1 guy needing to carry the entire load.  How many playoff series did we win since 2011 with him having to do that?  Early in his tenure we did it by committee by having a bunch of solid D instead of spending on a true #1 guy.  It was on purpose, as Gillis said outright his vision of a D is having three pairs who can play in all situations.  Edler, Bieksa, Salo, Hamhuis, Erhoff... we had five guys who were #2-3 defencemen on pretty much any team in the league.

Myers is in no way a top pairing D, and an iffy top 4... and not at all if you want to have a defence for a contender.  If we want to be a Stanley Cup team, Myers is on an excellent 3rd pairing.

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Probably because it has been  at times all year …. Since the house cleaning it’s been MUCH better with forwards pressing instead of calapsing. I still see at times they do and we we give up chances, but not nearly as bad as before …. Also Lord demko could be taking some of the credit they deserve with the way he’s been playing all year

 

The only real suspect things in our defense is schenn and hamonics skating and poolmans decision making IMO . The latter has been better since the BRUCEquake

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2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Same could be said of Edler.   He's our all time leading scoring D is he not?   More out of sticking it out then anything, when too much was asked of him he led the league in minus.   To me at least Myers and Edler aren't too far apart in skill and career wise.   The stats back that up.   Myers was buried in WNP...but still when injuries happened he did admirably - i don't agree with that assessment of him, the same way i didn't agree with Edlers when he was asked to tow the line.   Led the league in minus one year.   Myers is fine as a top pairing, and he's fine as a top four D.   Don't know what you expect ... Trouba lol remember how many salivated at the idea of getting him?  Myers has done better - and he's 8 x 8.  Sure there are better RHDs, but not 60 of them.   Not even close actually.  

Biggest problem with Myers is consistency. Some games he plays like a solid #2-#3D, other times, he plays like a #4-#5. On average, he's probably a #4 (#3 if he can keep up his recent play under BB). Zero problem with him on a 2nd pair though. The guys far from a 3rd pair scrub.

 

2 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nhl/positional/defenseman/full-cap/

 

our avg per player is somewhere in the middle of the league, but then that's because we have 5 contracts of 750-850k on the roster/including ir. if we were to look at the top 7 only on each team. we would be #3 in terms of cap spent on defense. with only tampa and wild because of the buy out ahead of us. but if we were to look at top 7 actualy players on the roster then we would be #2. 

 

i agree somewhat the higher end scoring D comes from the powerplay.. but tampa for example 17 of their 85 points by defensemen came from the powerplay. colorado who prolly leads the league in points by defenseman. only 22 of the 105 points came on the powerplay. our defense have 4 more points than arizona's defense with 2 games more played.. they ain't great defensively and they are horrible offensively. the lack of production from the defense for me hurts even more than the lack of production from the bottom 6. shut down the top 6 player u shut down the entire team's offense.

San Jose has to be above us as well.

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3 hours ago, Provost said:

While I don't agree that Myers is close to Edler in terms of an all around defenceman... you also make my point.

Edler was great, but also miscast as a #1 guy needing to carry the entire load.  How many playoff series did we win since 2011 with him having to do that?  Early in his tenure we did it by committee by having a bunch of solid D instead of spending on a true #1 guy.  It was on purpose, as Gillis said outright his vision of a D is having three pairs who can play in all situations.  Edler, Bieksa, Salo, Hamhuis, Erhoff... we had five guys who were #2-3 defencemen on pretty much any team in the league.

Myers is in no way a top pairing D, and an iffy top 4... and not at all if you want to have a defence for a contender.  If we want to be a Stanley Cup team, Myers is on an excellent 3rd pairing.

You are aware - that our 7th D in Ballard, was making the same cap percentage Myers has with us right?   

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