Jump to content
The Official Site of the Vancouver Canucks
Canucks Community

[Discussion] IF We Trade Miller, Then Also Trade ___(?)


Recommended Posts

On 1/20/2022 at 9:23 AM, Nuxfanabroad said:

Short & sweet. Team's playing great now, but cap troubles will soon rear it's ugly head.

 

JT Miller should get a shot at the silver. Should he go, we step back(but also get younger, & likely deeper in youth).

The Question: Who's another 4-5 mill AAV we should also unload, if the price is right?

 

Right now I'd prob say Bo. Imagine the stash of youth we could add, dealing these two?

 

Then we'd build around QH, TD, EP, BB & Pod-monster. It's a high-octane, REVAMP, L & G...

 

 

The way I see how this line of thought develops, every two or so years the Canucks trade away their better/older players for other team's prospects and picks, then develop those guys, and then trade them away for more prospects and picks. Supposedly, somewhere in there, there is a point when the Canucks will win a Cup (or two) with a bunch of guys who are 26 yrs old or younger, who will then be traded because they are "too old".

 

This is getting so much like Carrousel from "Logan's Run", only they wait until the people get to 30 before they are gotten rid of.  :P

 

                                                     regards,  G.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Gollumpus said:

The way I see how this line of thought develops, every two or so years the Canucks trade away their better/older players for other team's prospects and picks, then develop those guys, and then trade them away for more prospects and picks. Supposedly, somewhere in there, there is a point when the Canucks will win a Cup (or two) with a bunch of guys who are 26 yrs old or younger, who will then be traded because they are "too old".

 

This is getting so much like Carrousel from "Logan's Run", only they wait until the people get to 30 before they are gotten rid of.  :P

 

                                                     regards,  G.

Most of our core is 25 and under right now. The group of guys we have the best shot at a cup with, isn't even in their prime for another couple years. The team needs to focus it's planning on having the best depth and biggest push while they're between +/-25-30 years old or roughly years 2-7 from now. EVERYTHING should be planned around that, as it will give us our greatest chances to win a cup.

 

So no, this isn't about continuing to cycle players out/in forever. It's about cycling players out who don't fit that timeline and focusing all of our efforts towards that window. A declining, mid 30's Miller at $8m+ does not do that. That's a depreciating anchor, right in the meat of that window.

  • Thanks 1
  • Vintage 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, BigTramFan said:

....then also trade....Hamonic (assuming the return on Miller brings a young RHD)

Gordie I hope so. He needs to get back healthy and PLAY though, for any chance of that. And even then... Might be a tall order. 

 

Then sign Lyubushkin for a couple years ($2 something x 2-3 years) this summer and explore moving Poolman next year if said young D makes the roster (and/or Poolman can be our spare D).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, aGENT said:

Gordie I hope so. He needs to get back healthy and PLAY though, for any chance of that. And even then... Might be a tall order. 

 

Then sign Lyubushkin for a couple years ($2 something x 2-3 years) this summer and explore moving Poolman next year if said young D makes the roster (and/or Poolman can be our spare D).

I really think WSH could use a 2nd pairing RD behind Carlson. Schultz has become like a 3rd pairing guy nowadays anyway. A simple trade for Hamonic in exchange for Kempny at $2.5m might do the trick. Kempny's $2.5m contract expires this season, so 'Nucks clear all cap costs before next season. WSH keeps Hamonic for next year and Schultz's $4m contract is also expiring this season, so Hamonic stays on as their 2nd pairing RD next season and WSH can afford that.

 

Hamonic has an 8-team NTC but I wouldn't think WSH would be on that list. If Hamonic is traded and then decides he doesn't want to play for WSH then WSH voids his contract and they have just jettisoned Kempny for free (i.e. got rid of him without needing to add any sweetener).

  • Vintage 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

I really think WSH could use a 2nd pairing RD behind Carlson. Schultz has become like a 3rd pairing guy nowadays anyway. A simple trade for Hamonic in exchange for Kempny at $2.5m might do the trick. Kempny's $2.5m contract expires this season, so 'Nucks clear all cap costs before next season. WSH keeps Hamonic for next year and Schultz's $4m contract is also expiring this season, so Hamonic stays on as their 2nd pairing RD next season and WSH can afford that.

 

Hamonic has an 8-team NTC but I wouldn't think WSH would be on that list. If Hamonic is traded and then decides he doesn't want to play for WSH then WSH voids his contract and they have just jettisoned Kempny for free (i.e. got rid of him without needing to add any sweetener).

Sold! Call Rutherford right now!

  • Haha 1
  • Vintage 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/22/2022 at 11:18 AM, aGENT said:

Most of our core is 25 and under right now. The group of guys we have the best shot at a cup with, isn't even in their prime for another couple years. The team needs to focus it's planning on having the best depth and biggest push while they're between +/-25-30 years old or roughly years 2-7 from now. EVERYTHING should be planned around that, as it will give us our greatest chances to win a cup.

 

So no, this isn't about continuing to cycle players out/in forever. It's about cycling players out who don't fit that timeline and focusing all of our efforts towards that window. A declining, mid 30's Miller at $8m+ does not do that. That's a depreciating anchor, right in the meat of that window.

Apologies for a late response. I'm easily distracted by shiny objects...

 

So how old will Horvat be in two years? (28) How old will Boeser be in four years? (28) What will their contracts be like? I don't know, but they will very likely be north of their current cap hit, and how eager will the team be to offer NTC/NMC clauses if demanded? What is the likelihood that one of those two get moved (or leaves the Canucks), for any one of several reasons? Possibly quite good. While we're at it, Pettersson will be 28 in four years time (birthday in November). Will Horvat, Boeser and Pettersson (as the primary forwards) be enough to win a Cup? I suspect not. I'd be happy to be shown that I am wrong.  :)

 

Will Miller, at 30 - 34 be enough to help the team win the Cup? Maybe, maybe not, but I believe he will (likely) be a lot more effective in that role than whatever guys the Canucks get from the (likely) 1st rounder, and other prospects/players which they get in such a deal. Bottom third (or lower) 1st round picks seem to develop more slowly, and if the other team really liked a prospect who was that close to be NHL ready, then they would probably already have him on their roster, or he is heir 4th - 5th guy on their depth chart because of the guys ahead him.

 

                                                    regards,  G.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

Apologies for a late response. I'm easily distracted by shiny objects...

 

So how old will Horvat be in two years? (28) How old will Boeser be in four years? (28) What will their contracts be like? I don't know, but they will very likely be north of their current cap hit, and how eager will the team be to offer NTC/NMC clauses if demanded?

Horvat will just be entering his 32-34 decline at the end of that window and on a smaller cap hit than Miller. Not already well in to it like Miller. If he wants to stick around, he fits just fine and can transition down to a wily 3C in the end. And not with a $9m anchor.

 

Ideally we sign Horvat for 6 years that would have him set to expire at 33. Then we can possibly re-up him at an appropriate 3C rate/term then.

 

10 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

What is the likelihood that one of those two get moved (or leaves the Canucks), for any one of several reasons? Possibly quite good.

 

Certainly possible. It's a business. Do they move Boeser's scoring for more speed? Maybe.

 

10 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

While we're at it, Pettersson will be 28 in four years time (birthday in November). Will Horvat, Boeser and Pettersson (as the primary forwards) be enough to win a Cup? I suspect not. I'd be happy to be shown that I am wrong.  :)

That's Pettersson's (and Hughes) peak, precisely when we'll be building for. Why not some of the primary F's? You can probably include Garland, Podkolzin and perhaps Hoglander in that. Maybe Klimovich as well, or a guy we get in the Miller trade etc, etc... And who says they'll be all we have? We will continue to draft, trade for and sign players. Maybe our first rounder this year is a key piece?

 

10 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

Will Miller, at 30 - 34 be enough to help the team win the Cup? Maybe, maybe not, but I believe he will (likely) be a lot more effective in that role than whatever guys the Canucks get from the (likely) 1st rounder, and other prospects/players which they get in such a deal. Bottom third (or lower) 1st round picks seem to develop more slowly, and if the other team really liked a prospect who was that close to be NHL ready, then they would probably already have him on their roster, or he is heir 4th - 5th guy on their depth chart because of the guys ahead him.

 

                                                    regards,  G.

The pick is not remotely the main part of any trade package. Will pieces we get back be better next year? Probably not. In 4-5 years? Quite possibly. Likely even.

 

They're 4-5 guys on their charts because the teams are contenders, with really good players in their prime, and the prospects are young and inexperienced. 4-5 years represents a rather large change there.

 

Never mind the opportunity cost you're sacrificing, having it tied up in a declining, $9m, mid 30's, likely 3rd liner, right in the meat of our contention window.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Horvat will just be entering his 32-34 decline at the end of that window and on a smaller cap hit than Miller. Not already well in to it like Miller. If he wants to stick around, he fits just fine and can transition down to a wily 3C in the end. And not with a $9m anchor.

 

Ideally we sign Horvat for 6 years that would have him set to expire at 33. Then we can possibly re-up him at an appropriate 3C rate/term then.

Or, Horvat just says, "Screw this" before he reaches that point, and gets himself traded, or goes UFA.

 

33 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Certainly possible. It's a business. Do they move Boeser's scoring for more speed? Maybe.

Or, the Canucks move Boeser to another team for scoring and speed, in a younger package? And maybe some size.

 

37 minutes ago, aGENT said:

That's Pettersson's (and Hughes) peak, precisely when we'll be building for. Why not some of the primary F's? You can probably include Garland, Podkolzin and perhaps Hoglander in that. Maybe Klimovich as well, or a guy we get in the Miller trade etc, etc... And who says they'll be all we have? We will continue to draft, trade for and sign players. Maybe our first rounder this year is a key piece?

Well, I'm riffing off of the idea of the team being young(er), and since it (usually) takes time to develop talent, I'm not holding out a lot of hope for Podkolzin, Klimovich, or even Hoglander being a major part at that time. Once again, it would be nice to be wrong on this, but I suspect that all of these guys need more than a couple of years before they are at their peak. 

 

My assumptions on the free agent market is that (at least as some see the Canucks' cap situation) are that the team won't do any significant  signings because of cap considerations and the desire the make sure that those guys like Pettersson, Podkolzin, Hoglander, horvat or whomever get paid.

 

A 1st rounder will probably take four years (or more), so if they are part of a playoff team at that time I suspect that they will mostly be a role player. Not a bad thing, I suppose.

 

This is a fun discussion.

 

                                                       regards,  G.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

Or, Horvat just says, "Screw this" before he reaches that point, and gets himself traded, or goes UFA.

If he does, we trade him.

 

33 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

 

Or, the Canucks move Boeser to another team for scoring and speed, in a younger package? And maybe some size.

Maybe.

 

33 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

Well, I'm riffing off of the idea of the team being young(er), and since it (usually) takes time to develop talent, I'm not holding out a lot of hope for Podkolzin, Klimovich, or even Hoglander being a major part at that time. Once again, it would be nice to be wrong on this, but I suspect that all of these guys need more than a couple of years before they are at their peak. 

Player primes are roughly 24-32 with peaking at 27-28.

 

Like I've said all along, our window is roughly 2-7 years from now, with our best chance at a cup when Hughes and Petey are 27/28 +/-

 

Why couldn't all those players contribute in that time frame?

 

That's not too say we can't still be a bubble playoff team the next couple years but if we want to build a contender, we need to BUILD a contender.

 

33 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

 

My assumptions on the free agent market is that (at least as some see the Canucks' cap situation) are that the team won't do any significant  signings because of cap considerations and the desire the make sure that those guys like Pettersson, Podkolzin, Hoglander, horvat or whomever get paid.

Sure, I don't see us as big free agent spenders the next couple years either.  One of Paul/Tierney/Sturm for 3C and maybe a 3LD this summer. And yes we'll make sure we're pay our young guys.

 

33 minutes ago, Gollumpus said:

 

A 1st rounder will probably take four years (or more), so if they are part of a playoff team at that time I suspect that they will mostly be a role player. Not a bad thing, I suppose.

 

This is a fun discussion.

 

                                                       regards,  G.

 Again, 4 years is Hughes/Pettersson's peak +/- and likely our best for at a cup. We could do a lot worse than a  solid support player on a cheap ELC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/20/2022 at 9:23 AM, Nuxfanabroad said:

Short & sweet. Team's playing great now, but cap troubles will soon rear it's ugly head.

 

JT Miller should get a shot at the silver. Should he go, we step back(but also get younger, & likely deeper in youth).

The Question: Who's another 4-5 mill AAV we should also unload, if the price is right?

 

Right now I'd prob say Bo. Imagine the stash of youth we could add, dealing these two?

 

Then we'd build around QH, TD, EP, BB & Pod-monster. It's a high-octane, REVAMP, L & G...

 

 

Trading Miller would be a huge step back. 

It would also say this team isn't good enough to win.

So, I'd be all in for another tear down.

Keep Hughes, Petey, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. 

Everyone else is available.

Let the bad contracts expire or, at least to where they can be bought out and gather as many prospects and picks as you can.

Even take on some bad contracts for prospects and picks. JVR in Philly or Jonathan Druin out of Montreal might be desired cap dumps.

JB left this team is a bad state. Trading Miller should signal the need for a change of philosophy and make a tear down necessary.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, komodo0921 said:

Trading Miller would be a huge step back. 

It would also say this team isn't good enough to win.

So, I'd be all in for another tear down.

Keep Hughes, Petey, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. 

Everyone else is available.

Let the bad contracts expire or, at least to where they can be bought out and gather as many prospects and picks as you can.

Even take on some bad contracts for prospects and picks. JVR in Philly or Jonathan Druin out of Montreal might be desired cap dumps.

JB left this team is a bad state. Trading Miller should signal the need for a change of philosophy and make a tear down necessary.

 

Sigh.  I've wasted way too much time invested in this team.  I don't think I could stand another rebuild. Likewise, I think it would be the end of the road for hockey and me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know he's older (34), but he also becomes a UFA at the end of this season and I believe still has lots of game. He's second in team scoring, ahead of Crosby. Maybe he signs on a cheaper short-term contract ($5?) to play in VAN under JR and Allvin?

 

And if maybe they trade Boeser or Garland to NJ for Severson?

 

Ekman-Larsson - Letang

Hughes - Severson

 

Too much offensive D?  Letang is good defensively too, though, and Hughes has really improved a lot going from a -24 last season to a +9 this year. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, higgyfan said:

Sigh.  I've wasted way too much time invested in this team.  I don't think I could stand another rebuild. Likewise, I think it would be the end of the road for hockey and me.

Moving Miller does not equate to a rebuild. That's just nonsense. We have a young core in place that we need to re tool around for their +/- 2-7 years from now, window. 

 

If THAT core fails to bring home a cup in the next 8'ish years, THEN you rebuild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If they move Miller and I say if !  Then they might as well take the opportunity to reset and add some depth. 

 

If Miller is out then I would try to get Boeser signed to a reasonable deal or he would be next. They would also have to be sure Horvat can be extended.

 

Then Meyers,  Pearson and Garland would all be dangled to see their value.  Try to bulk up with some youth and picks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Moving Miller does not equate to a rebuild. That's just nonsense. We have a young core in place that we need to re tool around for their +/- 2-7 years from now, window. 

 

If THAT core fails to bring home a cup in the next 8'ish years, THEN you rebuild.

 

FYI, here's the quote I was responding to...

 

'Keep Hughes, Petey, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. 

Everyone else is available'

 

Context tells me that the poster was talking about a strip down rebuild.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

 

FYI, here's the quote I was responding to...

 

'Keep Hughes, Petey, Hoglander, and Podkolzin. 

Everyone else is available'

 

Context tells me that the poster was talking about a strip down rebuild.

Yes, and I was largely agreeing with you that the other posters premise, was nonsense.

 

You can tell by the absence of Demko in that list too :lol:

Edited by aGENT
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/20/2022 at 12:23 PM, Nuxfanabroad said:

Short & sweet. Team's playing great now, but cap troubles will soon rear it's ugly head.

 

JT Miller should get a shot at the silver. Should he go, we step back(but also get younger, & likely deeper in youth).

The Question: Who's another 4-5 mill AAV we should also unload, if the price is right?

 

Right now I'd prob say Bo. Imagine the stash of youth we could add, dealing these two?

 

Then we'd build around QH, TD, EP, BB & Pod-monster. It's a high-octane, REVAMP, L & G...

 

 

Well no way EP is ready to take the helm and might as well expect his departure as well.    
 

Miller i'm pretty sure all get won't be around forever.   And they know they aren't a contender yet. 

 

Now that covid is mostly in the rear view mirror, and they aren't likely to get it again this season, i'm really looking forward to see how things go over the next month.   Have February to make the decisions that need to happen for March/TDL.    IF a deal comes available, that is simply too good to be true - like Byram for Miller and a first .... take it and run.    Or a team is hot and horny for Brock Boeser same thing.    Trading Horvat and Miller wastes too much of QHs and Demko's contracts.   Will be painful to watch Demko keep us not quite bad enough to get a high lottery pick as well.   We are close - just need a smart cap re-structuring.   And that almost certainly includes one of Miller or Brock. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well no way EP is ready to take the helm and might as well expect his departure as well.    
 

Miller i'm pretty sure all get won't be around forever.   And they know they aren't a contender yet. 

 

Now that covid is mostly in the rear view mirror, and they aren't likely to get it again this season, i'm really looking forward to see how things go over the next month.   Have February to make the decisions that need to happen for March/TDL.    IF a deal comes available, that is simply too good to be true - like Byram for Miller and a first .... take it and run.    Or a team is hot and horny for Brock Boeser same thing.    Trading Horvat and Miller wastes too much of QHs and Demko's contracts.   Will be painful to watch Demko keep us not quite bad enough to get a high lottery pick as well.   We are close - just need a smart cap re-structuring.   And that almost certainly includes one of Miller or Brock. 

Seems fairly well-reasoned, IB. However would take a wide berth around Bo Byram - them head injuries are mighty ominous for a D-man, on a team that apparently has a green light for it's players being run.

 

The return here might well dictate who gets dealt. Would like Poolman possibly included, as well. Think he could be a good candidate for an unpopular destination.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...