Goal:thecup Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I think Miller is a little over-rated, especially here on CDC. Would he be the #1C on any team that already had a 8m or more #1C? Would he get less ice time and therefore produce less ppg? Would he get the same respect as he gets here? What will he be worth if we Win The Cup with him as our leader? We still have to let these horses run, imo; until either the TDL or we fall off the winning pace we are on. If we show well in the playoffs this year, with Miller, negotiate an extension in the summer, if we can. If not, trade him before next year's TDL; we will still get a good return; not as much perhaps, but by then he will also be playoff-proven. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 minute ago, aGENT said: They're neither as bad as their early record, or as good as their recent one. As always, the truth lies in the middle. Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that you view the Canucks, as presently constructed, in the same breath as teams like Carolina, Florida, Tampa, Colorado, Vegas etc? Because that's where we need to get to over the next few years. Honestly it's hard to say. Going into this season, some expert panelists had the Canucks winning the division because of the forward depth. We're finally seeing that when the forwards are playing well, this Canucks team scores goals at a rate where they can come back in games after being down going into 3rd periods. Our goaltending is top 5 in the league. I have no doubts about it. Demko should be in vezina discussions, but he won't be because he plays on Vancouver in the West. The only question mark is the defence. Hughes, OEL, and Myers are a very solid top 3. It's the bottom 3 that need improvement. It is really hard to assess this Canucks team because there have been 3 seasons in one. The Green season where they sucked terribly. The Bruce There It Is season where they were invincible. Then the covid/post-covid season where players have been rotating in and out of the lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, HKSR said: This year? Yes. Last year? He had Boeser playing at a 33 goal season clip, and Petey was doing decent before injury. The year before he was on the lotto line that was ripping up the league. So how exactly has Miller not been supported by linemates? Wheeler had a lot more guys playing a lot more consistently throughout the years. Jets were more of a playoff team for good reason. This year does matter yeah. The fact that he's still playing good with only help/benefitting from Hughes, with others struggling will help him command more. When you look at guys around the league. Backstrom/Seguins making 9+ and Duchene/Johansen making 8M, I find it immensely hard to think that Miller won't get paid a lot considering how well he's playing. IMO he's a top 15-20 player this year. Edited February 1, 2022 by Junkyard Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkyard Dog Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 minutes ago, khay said: You are severely undervaluing EP and Boeser. He gets primary handle on the puck during our PP, which also features Horvat. Not undervaluing them just shining a light on their struggles and the fact that they're still growing. Miller has elevated his level of play with them struggling this year which will only add to his value. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justathought Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 (edited) I think Miller is going to want/deserve too much for us to pay in a flat cap era. I believe we should trade him now for greater value, a huge defense upgrade and a solid forward with size and speed- a pick as well, if we can. The players we receive will be roster players and be able to help us immediately. The next move is to decide if Brock or Petey go. That departure would give us a solid power forward another "D" and picks. If we can get good $$ for Petey we should take it- he's not producing now, and we're winning. If he's gone and we have an immediate upgrade over the current incarnation of him, we are a better team. There is no guarantee he'll ever be what we once saw, and that's a lot of cap committed in just him and Miller, now and future. The fact is, that right now, teams are all up against the cap. That fact alone says that in the next couple of years there's going to be some huge bargains to be had as bloated rosters try to maintain compliance- let alone any hope of flexibility. With the addition of two very solid roster forwards, and two very solid roster "D" , and a couple of picks we can move forward on solid footing and room to "fiddle" with the roster down the road. Owners are not going to want to increase the cap, until some of the money they've hemorrhaged over the last couple of years has been replaced. Edited February 2, 2022 by justathought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 minutes ago, HKSR said: Honestly it's hard to say. Going into this season, some expert panelists had the Canucks winning the division because of the forward depth. We're finally seeing that when the forwards are playing well, this Canucks team scores goals at a rate where they can come back in games after being down going into 3rd periods. Our goaltending is top 5 in the league. I have no doubts about it. Demko should be in vezina discussions, but he won't be because he plays on Vancouver in the West. The only question mark is the defence. Hughes, OEL, and Myers are a very solid top 3. It's the bottom 3 that need improvement. It is really hard to assess this Canucks team because there have been 3 seasons in one. The Green season where they sucked terribly. The Bruce There It Is season where they were invincible. Then the covid/post-covid season where players have been rotating in and out of the lineup. No it's not. Not on paper, not via eyeball test, not via analytics. I don't care what you think our recent record tells you. We saw it well enough on that Eastern road trip, we're good enough that if we get solid goaltending from Demko, and play our guts out, we can just compete with '1B' teams like Washington, Pitts etc but against '1A' teams like Carolina or Tampa, we're simply outmatched. We're simply not there yet. And that doesn't get easier the next couple years with young players needing raises and guys like Myers, Hamonic etc expiring and needing replacing. Like honestly, who is playing on our top 4, right side in two years post-Myers/Hamonic? How are we paying for them if we're keeping and giving raises too all our players, 30 year old, $9m dollar Miller included (if we can even convince him to stay)? Where are these replacements coming from if we don't trade valuable players to acquire them? Never mind the very realistic chance we have a $9m, mid 30's, 3rd liner, right at our best chance to win a cup with this core (bad math!) Like this is so blatantly obvious to anyone willing to look at the situation pragmatically. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuckfanforlife82 Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, HKSR said: So we are all speculating on JT Miller's price should he be extended with the Canucks. We've all speculated, and I've seen numbers everywhere from $7M upto $9M AAV. So what is his actual $ value? JT Miller is currently the 38th highest scoring forward in the league (based on points per game). The 38th highest cap hit in the entire NHL among forwards is $7.25M. So perhaps those $8M to $9M AAV numbers being thrown around might be a bit on the high side? His age makes it very unlikely we sign him but rather trade him. We aren’t going to be contenders in the next few years and he most likely wants to go to a team that is a contender. It would be dumb to keep him and lose him for nothing. People have to start to realize we are a few years away from contending. We aren’t close. He most likely would want a lot of money if he was going to stay here and not be a contender. So no thanks. Edited February 2, 2022 by Canuckfanforlife82 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 23 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said: I think Miller is a little over-rated, especially here on CDC. Would he be the #1C on any team that already had a 8m or more #1C? Would he get less ice time and therefore produce less ppg? Would he get the same respect as he gets here? What will he be worth if we Win The Cup with him as our leader? We still have to let these horses run, imo; until either the TDL or we fall off the winning pace we are on. If we show well in the playoffs this year, with Miller, negotiate an extension in the summer, if we can. If not, trade him before next year's TDL; we will still get a good return; not as much perhaps, but by then he will also be playoff-proven. This is how I feel about Miller. If he were on a (insert contender here), he doesn't get the handle on the puck like the way he does here to put up points because there are at least two players better than him at handling the puck. He might go back to being a 50-60 point guy on a contending team. Honestly, I feel like he hogs the puck quite a bit where a quick pass to other forward would lead to better scoring opps. As a result, he gets a point but we miss out on a lot of better scoring opportunities where he wouldn't be part of the scoring. I admit that I'm biased though as I am probably looking far more into his mistakes. I am just sick and tired of his brain cramp plays by now that he is one Canuck that I somehow cannot love anymore. I've mentally moved on from him and already imagining the roster without him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goal:thecup Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 I really like Miller, but I am biting my tongue and swallowing some of my angst at the things he does on the ice that do not help the team win. I think it is a good thing we don't have to trade him right away, because I am getting more used to the idea of moving on from him too, and I really want the playoffs and success in the playoffs this year (and every year thereafter). I'm coming around Agent and Stawns, but my guts are churning. lol 5 minutes ago, khay said: This is how I feel about Miller. If he were on a (insert contender here), he doesn't get the handle on the puck like the way he does here to put up points because there are at least two players better than him at handling the puck. He might go back to being a 50-60 point guy on a contending team. Honestly, I feel like he hogs the puck quite a bit where a quick pass to other forward would lead to better scoring opps. As a result, he gets a point but we miss out on a lot of better scoring opportunities where he wouldn't be part of the scoring. I admit that I'm biased though as I am probably looking far more into his mistakes. I am just sick and tired of his brain cramp plays by now that he is one Canuck that I somehow cannot love anymore. I've mentally moved on from him and already imagining the roster without him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, HKSR said: Right... so maybe... just maybe, we might be overstating his cost? I'd be honestly happy to lock him up for say 5 years at $8M AAV. So would lots of teams. I don't think he has any interest in signing here though. And it will definitely be higher or longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erkayloomeh Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 The other thing about Miller is he was an impact player on the Travis Green Canucks. He pretty much did that alone. Lose Brock keep Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bure_Pavel Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Our window to be a Contender opens up in the 2023-24 season as long as we avoid any bad contracts. Miller needs to be moved for young cost controlled pieces that can start to make an impact in 2 years time. Next year I think we scrape into the playoffs, the year after we are competitive in the playoffs. Continue to build around Petey, Hughes, Horvat, and Demko. Biggest needs are a potential stud RD and a third line center who can play up the line up. Would also be interested in a big physical top 6 winger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, aGENT said: No it's not. Not on paper, not via eyeball test, not via analytics. I don't care what you think our recent record tells you. We saw it well enough on that Eastern road trip, we're good enough that if we get solid goaltending from Demko, and play our guts out, we can just compete with '1B' teams like Washington, Pitts etc but against '1A' teams like Carolina or Tampa, we're simply outmatched. We're simply not there yet. And that doesn't get easier the next couple years with young players needing raises and guys like Myers, Hamonic etc expiring and needing replacing. Like honestly, who is playing on our top 4, right side in two years post-Myers/Hamonic? How are we paying for them if we're keeping and giving raises too all our players, 30 year old, $9m dollar Miller included (if we can even convince him to stay)? Where are these replacements coming from if we don't trade valuable players to acquire them? Never mind the very realistic chance we have a $9m, mid 30's, 3rd liner, right at our best chance to win a cup with this core (bad math!) Like this is so blatantly obvious to anyone willing to look at the situation pragmatically. Oh that's right, we were expected to take on 3 of the best teams in the league back to back to back over 5 days after having played 3 games in total over the previous 25 days... what happened against Florida the next time they played... oh, and while missing our franchise goaltender and several key forwards? ... oh yes, Florida blew us away in a shootout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, HKSR said: Oh that's right, we were expected to take on 3 of the best teams in the league back to back to back over 5 days after having played 3 games in total over the previous 25 days... what happened against Florida the next time they played... oh, and while missing our franchise goaltender and several key forwards? ... oh yes, Florida blew us away in a shootout. You're swimming in the middle of a river in North Africa if you think we're on the same level of those teams now, let alone with the issues I noted, moving forward the next few seasons. Edited February 2, 2022 by aGENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 16 minutes ago, aGENT said: You're swimming in the middle of a river in North Africa if you think we're on the same level of those teams now, let alone with the issues I noted, moving forward the next few seasons. Honestly though, do u think the Canucks have fluked their way to .700 hockey since Boudreau took over? I've shown you their record, I've identified the situation in which they were thrown in that resulted in 3 out of their 5 regulation losses since November. We are in frigging February now and they're still getting points consistently. Give credit where credit is due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, HKSR said: Honestly though, do u think the Canucks have fluked their way to .700 hockey since Boudreau took over? I've shown you their record, I've identified the situation in which they were thrown in that resulted in 3 out of their 5 regulation losses since November. We are in frigging February now and they're still getting points consistently. Give credit where credit is due. Some law of averages, some coaching bump, some luck, some hard work... There's numerous reasons. None of which magically make us a top 5 team or erase any of the very real, impending structural issues this team has. Enjoy your swim though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawdzukes Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 1 hour ago, aGENT said: All to stay stagnant, as a non-contender, bubble playoff team, with all that extra cap tired up in a soon to be declining player, impeding the ability to fix the issues keeping us a bubble playoff team, right through our core's prime... It's baffling how many people don't see the obvious answer here... Yup this fanbase is programmed to not deal in the reality of hockey and just want to blindly keep every player until they retire, we get nothing back, and can't compete as a result. I blame Gillis for signing everyone under the sun to NTC's, no one had to make a decision on anything for 10 years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said: Yup this fanbase is programmed to not deal in the reality of hockey and just want to blindly keep every player until they retire, we get nothing back, and can't compete as a result. I blame Gillis for signing everyone under the sun to NTC's, no one had to make a decision on anything for 10 years. I mean I get it, most fan(atic)s aren't going to necessarily grasp things like bigger pictures or long term planning and clear structural issues with those things. They live in the here and now, and here and now, Miller is a good player helping this team win games and get back in to a potential playoff picture. But some of us are a bit more pragmatic and can look beyond our noses a bit to see the obvious issues coming to smack us in the face in short order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 18 minutes ago, aGENT said: Some law of averages, some coaching bump, some luck, some hard work... There's numerous reasons. None of which magically make us a top 5 team or erase any of the very real, impending structural issues this team has. Enjoy your swim though. But none of it has to do with the fact this team is better than where they are in the standings cuz you say so. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKSR Posted February 2, 2022 Author Share Posted February 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, aGENT said: I mean I get it, most fan(atic)s aren't going to necessarily grasp things like bigger pictures or long term planning and clear structural issues with those things. They live in the here and now, and here and now, Miller is a good player helping this team win games and get back in to a potential playoff picture. But some of us are a bit more pragmatic and can look beyond our noses a bit to see the obvious issues coming to smack us in the face in short order Funny how Pat Quinn went all in for 1994 and Gillis went all in for 2011... the biggest problem with this franchise is that they always think the next best thing is around the corner. Always waiting for the window to open when they need to realize the window is opening and to seize the opportunity. So the plan is to wait 3 or 4 years... when Horvat is in his early 30s and regressing, Myers is good as gone, OEL is older and slower but taking up a huge cap hit, Garland is on the last year of his bargain deal, Petey making even more than he is now... and we hope that somehow our prospects are gonna step up and perfectly fill those voids. I know we're good now, but nope, we will be better in the future guaranteed. Just like how Petey and Boeser have taken another step in their development this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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