We need a dominant Defenseman (Discussion)

[J.I.A.H.N]

So, as I sit here this morning, reading the different posts, it comes to me that we do not have that dominant Dman. One that controls the front of the net, who is able to consistently handle the other teams stars, and who can skate up ice, and join the play, and has the IQ to know when to get back. This Dman does not have to be the highest point getter on the team, but rather just dominates games when on the ice.

 

Hedman in Tampa, Pietrangelo in Vegas, Doughty in LA, Carlson in Washington, Ekblad in Florida, etc..........younger guys like Fox in New York, Seider in Detroit, and Maker in Colorado are in the new wave dominant Dmen. And as much as I love Quinn Hughes, he is not in that class of player.

 

These guys are tough to get, and there is a certain amount of luck, but it also takes guts to do. I really like Chicago getting Jones, and Vegas going out and getting Pietrangelo, was a great move, but if you are going to do that, you have to be good with moving assets, either future or a combination of both Future and current assets.

 

This leads me to the question of which is, do we have enough assets to acquire such an asset? And a RHD to boot! This has lead me to ask the question, do we truly have enough young assets that we could move some to get what we need. My answer is no. No we do not, as we have used our assets to get Miller, Garland and OEL, and to move players out. Yes, our U25's are not that bad, but do we really have what we need to take the next step before our older vets start aging out?

 

This brings me back to getting this elusive RHD man, and most probably a young 1st line center, down the line. How do we do it? And can we do it with out moving current asset out? The answer that comes to me is no! We do not have enough asset, and there is none that would be worthy of discussion in the minors or still developing. So, IMO, we are stuck, stuck right in the middle, and in no where land!

 

We have this years 1st, and the following years 1st, to use, but if using in the draft, any asset is 2 to 3 years away, which really shortens any window we have with our now, dominant veterans, such as Miller, Horvat, Garland and more so OEL (although not really dominant).

 

So where do we go from here? I think that is where JR is today, and what question he is asking today. 

 

My belief, is that as painful as it is, we need to take that step back, and to adjust our roster to meet all needs, and that suggests to me that moving veterans, may be the only way that that can happen, and that any upward movement will happen in 2 to 3 years, when the adjustments are concluded. 

 

I keep asking myself, can I actually stomach that some more? I am not sure I can................

 

So even though this is about acquiring a dominant defenseman, it is about a greater question, and how we achieve the greater goal..............

 

I would love to hear you answers to this............please indulge! 

[aGENT]

The best answer is Miller for Schneider.

 

Draft another D or C this summer with our early-ish first.

 

Keep on trucking.

Edited February 6, 2022 by aGENT

[IBatch]

Janis at this point, maybe we should all just pray to the hockey gods.   

 

Aside from that i really don't know what the right thing is.   But do think the draft is still where we need to be looking to for help more then anything, that and recently drafted players with promise.  

 

Team needs a re-set.  

[Alflives]

When factoring in scoring, plus minus, and qualify of team, our Huggable One grades out best in the NHL.  So to suggest we don’t have a dominant D man is actually incorrect.  Quinn Hughes is a very dominant D man.  

What we need is Demko to play better than his opposite.  When that happens we win at near to a .700 rate.  When Demko stops pucks in the .800’s we lose.  

Hughes is a fabulous player, but Demko is our key piece.  

[Fanuck]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

The best answer is Miller for Schneider.

This.

[aGENT]

Further to that, regardless what potential playoff position we're in the next couple years, we NEED to move expiring vets (of value) for assets at TDL's.

 

This year that's Miller, Motte and Halak (if he'll waive).

 

Next year, it's Hamonic (if not bought out).

 

Year after, Myers, Pearson and Dickinson (if the latter isn't moved before hand).

[J.I.A.H.N]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

When factoring in scoring, plus minus, and qualify of team, our Huggable One grades out best in the NHL.  So to suggest we don’t have a dominant D man is actually incorrect.  Quinn Hughes is a very dominant D man.  

What we need is Demko to play better than his opposite.  When that happens we win at near to a .700 rate.  When Demko stops pucks in the .800’s we lose.  

Hughes is a fabulous player, but Demko is our key piece.  

Honestly Alf, There are several things that Hughes can not do. 

 

#1. He can not take the puck and skate through another team........yes, he is elusive once with the puck in his own end, but he just can not take it and go.....aka Maker and Fox.

 

# 2. He can not clear the net, in any way..........

 

#3. He can not separate players from the puck.....

 

He is slippery, elusive, and offensive, and I am not here to slag a player I love to watch, but he is none of the above. he does not dominate games. Especially against top opposition teams.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[aGENT]

6 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Honestly Alf, There are several things that Hughes can not do. 

 

#1. He can not take the puck and skate through another team........yes, he is elusive once with the puck in his own end, but he just can not take it and go.....aka Maker and Fox.

 

# 2. He can not clear the net, in any way..........

 

#3. He can not separate players from the puck.....

 

He is slippery, elusive, and offensive, and I am not here to slag a player I love to watch, but is is none of the above. he does not dominate games. Especially against top opposition teams.

I've seen him skate and pass it through another team, so yeah, he can.

 

Makar and Fox can't do those other things either.

[aGENT]

And actually, I've seen Hughes separate the puck from players regularly this season. Subtle difference as he's taking the puck and not the body, but it's equally as effective.

[J.I.A.H.N]

11 minutes ago, aGENT said:

And actually, I've seen Hughes separate the puck from players regularly this season. Subtle difference as he's taking the puck and not the body, but it's equally as effective.

I am not saying he can not but more so, he is not that dynamic, take control of a game type player, that the other are........

 

It is not that Hughes is not very skilled and it is not a contest, he simply can not dominate a game.....that is not his skill set

 

really glad he is here, and I would not want to trade him.......I am just saying

[Phil_314]

21 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Honestly Alf, There are several things that Hughes can not do. 

 

#1. He can not take the puck and skate through another team... yes, he is elusive once with the puck in his own end, but he just can not take it and go.....aka Maker and Fox.

# 2. He can not clear the net, in any way..........

#3. He can not separate players from the puck.....

 

He is slippery, elusive, and offensive, and I am not here to slag a player I love to watch, but is is none of the above. he does not dominate games. Especially against top opposition teams.

Disagree for points 1 and 3 (point 3 is kind of in point 1, btw); as mentioned his puck-stealing has improved, and his skating and passing to key the transition is understated.  Of course he doesn't have the shot that Makar has but it doesn't mean that he's not a conduit to feed pucks to the guys up front.

Point 2 I agree with you, but that's why we go for someone like Schneider (from NYR) or Carlo (from Boston) if they want to acquire Miller.  For now, Schenn has performed admirably and the two have retained their chemistry from before which is passable until we get that stud RHD.

[Phil_314]

5 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I am not saying he can not but more so, he is not that dynamic, take control of a game type player, that the other are........

It is not that Hughes is not very skilled and it is not a contest, he simply can not dominate a game.....that is not his skill set

really glad he is here, and I would not want to trade him.......I am just saying

So you want a Mike Green, Cale Makar, Erik Karlsson, Victor Hedman, [insert generational HOF caliber (at least on offense) defenseman].
Do you realize how few there are of those guys?  It'll probably take Quinn getting injured before you realize just how important he is to us (good luck seeing OEL have the same positive impact in transition).

Edited February 6, 2022 by Phil_314

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I am not saying he can not but more so, he is not that dynamic, take control of a game type player, that the other are........

 

It is not that Hughes is not very skilled and it is not a contest, he simply can not dominate a game.....that is not his skill set

 

really glad he is here, and I would not want to trade him.......I am just saying

Umm... Not sure what you're watching but that's exactly what Hughes does. Maybe in his own, individual "Hughes" way, and he certainly hasn't had much support this year but that's exactly what he does.

 

Now we just need the Seabrook to his Kieth.

[J.I.A.H.N]

4 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

So you want a Mike Green, Cale Makar, Erik Karlsson, Victor Hedman, [insert generational HOF caliber (at least on offense) defenseman].
Do you realize how few there are of those guys?  It'll probably take Quinn getting injured before you realize just how important he is to us (good luck seeing OEL have the same positive impact in transition).

There is absolutely no reason to get defensive here, Quinn Hughes is an incredible player in his own right, and may turn out to be the best of all of them...........

 

I am just saying we need his equal, but bigger, more physical, who can dominate in other ways...........

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Umm... Not sure what you're watching but that's exactly what Hughes does. Maybe in his own, individual "Hughes" way, and he certainly hasn't had much support this year but that's exactly what he does.

 

Now we just need the Seabrook to his Kieth.

OK.yes!

[aGENT]

3 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

OK.yes!

Ok... So stop trying to sell it as "Hughes isn't good enough". He's very much in the same class as Fox and Makar (while being his own player, with his own individual skill set).

 

What he needs is support and complimenting, not "fixing".

[Alflives]

Hedman is a guy, who does it all.  There are no others at his level.  Players like him a very rare.  But the quality of his team helps him too.  Really the more we evaluate Huggy, the more we see he is an amazing D man, who shines even with Luke Schenn as his partner.  Rather than moving assets to get another partner for Huggs, maybe it’s best to extend Schenn?  Use those assets, like Miller, to help improve our club in other areas. 

[hammertime]

26 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So, as I sit here this morning, reading the different posts, it comes to me that we do not have that dominant Dman. One that controls the front of the net, who is able to consistently handle the other teams stars, and who can skate up ice, and join the play, and has the IQ to know when to get back. This Dman does not have to be the highest point getter on the team, but rather just dominates games when on the ice.

 

Hedman in Tampa, Pietrangelo in Vegas, Doughty in LA, Carlson in Washington, Ekblad in Florida, etc..........younger guys like Fox in New York, Seider in Detroit, and Maker in Colorado are in the new wave dominant Dmen. And as much as I love Quinn Hughes, he is not in that class of player.

 

These guys are tough to get, and there is a certain amount of luck, but it also takes guts to do. I really like Chicago getting Jones, and Vegas going out and getting Pietrangelo, was a great move, but if you are going to do that, you have to be good with moving assets, either future or a combination of both Future and current assets.

 

This leads me to the question of which is, do we have enough assets to acquire such an asset? And a RHD to boot! This has lead me to ask the question, do we truly have enough young assets that we could move some to get what we need. My answer is no. No we do not, as we have used our assets to get Miller, Garland and OEL, and to move players out. Yes, our U25's are not that bad, but do we really have what we need to take the next step before our older vets start aging out?

 

This brings me back to getting this elusive RHD man, and most probably a young 1st line center, down the line. How do we do it? And can we do it with out moving current asset out? The answer that comes to me is no! We do not have enough asset, and there is none that would be worthy of discussion in the minors or still developing. So, IMO, we are stuck, stuck right in the middle, and in no where land!

 

We have this years 1st, and the following years 1st, to use, but if using in the draft, any asset is 2 to 3 years away, which really shortens any window we have with our now, dominant veterans, such as Miller, Horvat, Garland and more so OEL (although not really dominant).

 

So where do we go from here? I think that is where JR is today, and what question he is asking today. 

 

My belief, is that as painful as it is, we need to take that step back, and to adjust our roster to meet all needs, and that suggests to me that moving veterans, may be the only way that that can happen, and that any upward movement will happen in 2 to 3 years, when the adjustments are concluded. 

 

I keep asking myself, can I actually stomach that some more? I am not sure I can................

 

So even though this is about acquiring a dominant defenseman, it is about a greater question, and how we achieve the greater goal..............

 

I would love to hear you answers to this............please indulge! 

I mean so are like 80% of the teams in the league though. Yet half of CDC wants to dump Myers like hot trash when he's the only guy on the squad who can actually do the things you discribe. Is he consistent at it lol no if he was he would be a unicorn like Chara. Ill take chaos Giraffe. 

 

I think more importantly what we need on D Is a righty who can play steady defense and is a threat to shoot. Not having a point shot is like playing 3 on 5 in the O zone and why a team like Calgary's wet blanket system can hold us to 2 shots or whatever through 40 mins and multiple PP's. 

 

The problem.... There really isn't a guy like that available for trade that isn't pushing retirement age or out of our price range. Petry/Hamilton

 

Maybe we draft Chesley he's got a really deceptive quick release and plays a stable defensive game with a sprinkle of sand. But he's 2 or 3 years away I'm afraid there isn't really a short term fix unless maybe Petry but he's 34 with 3 years left after this. That's gonna be a hard sell to this youth obsessed fanbase.

[hammertime]

47 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Honestly Alf, There are several things that Hughes can not do. 

 

#1. He can not take the puck and skate through another team........yes, he is elusive once with the puck in his own end, but he just can not take it and go.....aka Maker and Fox.

 

# 2. He can not clear the net, in any way..........

 

#3. He can not separate players from the puck.....

 

He is slippery, elusive, and offensive, and I am not here to slag a player I love to watch, but is is none of the above. he does not dominate games. Especially against top opposition teams.

In full agreement on 1 and 2 on 3 though I think he actually does a really good job of sliding himself in between the puck and the puck carrier scooping the puck and just skating away with it super casually.  

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Hedman is a guy, who does it all.  There are no others at his level.  Players like him a very rare.  But the quality of his team helps him too.  Really the more we evaluate Huggy, the more we see he is an amazing D man, who shines even with Luke Schenn as his partner.  Rather than moving assets to get another partner for Huggs, maybe it’s best to extend Schenn?  Use those assets, like Miller, to help improve our club in other areas. 

Schenn should be a bottom/spare pair D on a contender. And we want to become a contender, right?

 

He'll also be 33 when his deal expires.

 

He's been a great fill in, done admirably considering the situation, but he's not the long term answer.