We need a dominant Defenseman (Discussion)

[Father Ryan]

I wonder how much it would take to pry Nicholas Hague away from Vegas? One of Benning's glaring drafting mistakes was taking Kole Lind one pick in front of Hague

[J.I.A.H.N]

11 minutes ago, hammertime said:

In full agreement on 1 and 2 on 3 though I think he actually does a really good job of sliding himself in between the puck and the puck carrier scooping the puck and just skating away with it super casually.  

i agree

 

I think everyone is thinking I am gauging him as a 50/100, which is not what I am saying at all

 

What I am saying is he is a 80 to 85 out of a 100 and Fox and Maker are a bit better...............

 

I do think that both are better north/south skaters than Quinn, and can take off with the puck out of their zone better

 

Where Quinn has to use his lateral movement and quick turns to separate himself from his checkers

 

Again, I am splitting hairs, but I see a difference.................he also has no shot to speak of

 

There are differences, which is why the rest of the NHL does not speak of Hughes as a Norris candidate

 

Not yet, anyways..........

 

Would I trade Hughes for Maker or Fox straight up? Yes!

 

Would I trade Hughes for Hronek in Detroit? Not in your life!

 

Would I trade him for Seider in Detroit? I would have to think about it, and refer to some one more knowledgeable about the 2 in comparison

 

We are talking about elite, here gentlemen!!! We are splitting hairs for the most part.

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

i agree

 

I think everyone is thinking I am gauging him as a 50/100, which is not what I am saying at all

 

What I am saying is he is a 80 to 85 out of a 100 and Fox and Maker are a bit better...............

 

I do think that both are better north/south skaters than Quinn, and can take off with the puck out of their zone better

 

Where Quinn has to use his lateral movement and quick turns to separate himself from his checkers

 

Again, I am splitting hairs, but I see a difference.................he also has no shot to speak of

 

There are differences, which is why the rest of the NHL does not speak of Hughes as a Norris candidate

 

Not yet, anyways..........

 

Would I trade Hughes for Maker or Fox straight up? Yes!

 

Would I trade Hughes for Hronek in Detroit? Not in your life!

 

Would I trade him for Seider in Detroit? I would have to think about it, and refer to some one more knowledgeable about the 2 in comparison

 

We are talking about elite, here gentlemen!!! We are splitting hairs for the most part.

They're also a hell of a lot better supported than he is.

 

All but guarantee you swap Hughes with either of them and you're sitting here declaring the Canucks Fox/Makar as 80% of the Rangers/Avalanche Hughes.

[Odd.]

1 hour ago, aGENT said:

The best answer is Miller for Schneider.

 

Draft another D or C this summer with our early-ish first.

 

Keep on trucking.

Much rather try and scoop Lafreniere with Miller. 

[aGENT]

Just now, Odd. said:

Much rather try and scoop Lafreniere with Miller. 

Well, it's a free country, including the freedom to be wrong!

[Alflives]

24 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

i agree

 

I think everyone is thinking I am gauging him as a 50/100, which is not what I am saying at all

 

What I am saying is he is a 80 to 85 out of a 100 and Fox and Maker are a bit better...............

 

I do think that both are better north/south skaters than Quinn, and can take off with the puck out of their zone better

 

Where Quinn has to use his lateral movement and quick turns to separate himself from his checkers

 

Again, I am splitting hairs, but I see a difference.................he also has no shot to speak of

 

There are differences, which is why the rest of the NHL does not speak of Hughes as a Norris candidate

 

Not yet, anyways..........

 

Would I trade Hughes for Maker or Fox straight up? Yes!

 

Would I trade Hughes for Hronek in Detroit? Not in your life!

 

Would I trade him for Seider in Detroit? I would have to think about it, and refer to some one more knowledgeable about the 2 in comparison

 

We are talking about elite, here gentlemen!!! We are splitting hairs for the most part.

Seider is not even close to Hughes.  

We need Demko to play better than his opposite and then we win at .700 

Demko is the key.  If he plays like crap, like we’ve seen too often this year, then we have no chance.  

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Much rather try and scoop Lafreniere with Miller. 

Why would we give away Miller like that though?  Laugher is an overhyped bustaroo bonsai.  I’d do that deal if the 

Habs would give us their unprotected first in a three way.  

Rags get Miller.

Habs get Laugher.

We get Habs’ 2022 (unprotected) first. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Seider is not even close to Hughes.  

We need Demko to play better than his opposite and then we win at .700 

Demko is the key.  If he plays like crap, like we’ve seen too often this year, then we have no chance.  

I think you don't know Seider, Alf. He is very good! Not that Hughes isn't. But you may be right, Hughes is probably better, which is why I deferred the question to people greater than I.

 

But let's get back on topic.............it is not about Hughes

[J.I.A.H.N]

9 minutes ago, Odd. said:

Much rather try and scoop Lafreniere with Miller. 

Hell yeah, lets get a more powerful engine, when we do not have any wheels!

 

You are not getting Laff from NYR for Miller straight up.................no way!

[Phil_314]

1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

There is absolutely no reason to get defensive here, Quinn Hughes is an incredible player in his own right, and may turn out to be the best of all of them...........

 

I am just saying we need his equal, but bigger, more physical, who can dominate in other ways...........

And I'm just saying that what you're looking for is a rare breed (even more rare if they pack a shot on offense too, and OEL doesn't provide what Hughes does anymore).  Not getting defensive like you're trying to frame me as, but the old adage "don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" rings true.  If he gets injured or worse leaves, practically, you'll realize how impactful he is.  

[hammertime]

34 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

We are talking about elite, here gentlemen!!! We are splitting hairs for the most part.

This made me think of this

 

https://streamable.com/dpwae

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, Phil_314 said:

And I'm just saying that what you're looking for is a rare breed (even more rare if they pack a shot on offense too, and OEL doesn't provide what Hughes does anymore).  Not getting defensive like you're trying to frame me as, but the old adage "don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" rings true.  If he gets injured or worse leaves, practically, you'll realize how impactful he is.  

But I am not saying he isn't impactful...........that is the point.............he is

 

but he does not have all the tools the others do..................that is far from saying he isn't amazing or I want to trade him

 

Far from it.

[thrago]

What we need IMO is a Willie Mitchell type defenceman that can play with Hughes.

 

[Coconuts]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

The best answer is Miller for Schneider.

 

Draft another D or C this summer with our early-ish first.

 

Keep on trucking.

Schneider would be a great start, even if he tops out as a 2-4D. Because we're going to need young D who can play those roles as well. 

 

As for the sort of D Jan would like, about the only way you get your hands on that sort of player is by drafting them. Or by managing to somehow poach them from other teams, which doesn't come cheap. You rarely see top flight D move, Petro leaving the Blues was an anomaly. Teams do their best to lock those players down. 

 

If they want high end D they may need to start using more first and second round picks on D. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Coconuts

[86Viking]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

I've seen him skate and pass it through another team, so yeah, he can.

 

Makar and Fox can't do those other things either.

What...Makar and Fox dance around guys and score highlight reel goals!

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Canuckster86 said:

What...Makar and Fox dance around guys and score highlight reel goals!

They're both definitely better shooters. Hughes dances around guys and makes highlight reel passes.

[wildcam]

3 hours ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So, as I sit here this morning, reading the different posts, it comes to me that we do not have that dominant Dman. One that controls the front of the net, who is able to consistently handle the other teams stars, and who can skate up ice, and join the play, and has the IQ to know when to get back. This Dman does not have to be the highest point getter on the team, but rather just dominates games when on the ice.

 

Hedman in Tampa, Pietrangelo in Vegas, Doughty in LA, Carlson in Washington, Ekblad in Florida, etc..........younger guys like Fox in New York, Seider in Detroit, and Maker in Colorado are in the new wave dominant Dmen. And as much as I love Quinn Hughes, he is not in that class of player.

 

These guys are tough to get, and there is a certain amount of luck, but it also takes guts to do. I really like Chicago getting Jones, and Vegas going out and getting Pietrangelo, was a great move, but if you are going to do that, you have to be good with moving assets, either future or a combination of both Future and current assets.

 

This leads me to the question of which is, do we have enough assets to acquire such an asset? And a RHD to boot! This has lead me to ask the question, do we truly have enough young assets that we could move some to get what we need. My answer is no. No we do not, as we have used our assets to get Miller, Garland and OEL, and to move players out. Yes, our U25's are not that bad, but do we really have what we need to take the next step before our older vets start aging out?

 

This brings me back to getting this elusive RHD man, and most probably a young 1st line center, down the line. How do we do it? And can we do it with out moving current asset out? The answer that comes to me is no! We do not have enough asset, and there is none that would be worthy of discussion in the minors or still developing. So, IMO, we are stuck, stuck right in the middle, and in no where land!

 

We have this years 1st, and the following years 1st, to use, but if using in the draft, any asset is 2 to 3 years away, which really shortens any window we have with our now, dominant veterans, such as Miller, Horvat, Garland and more so OEL (although not really dominant).

 

So where do we go from here? I think that is where JR is today, and what question he is asking today. 

 

My belief, is that as painful as it is, we need to take that step back, and to adjust our roster to meet all needs, and that suggests to me that moving veterans, may be the only way that that can happen, and that any upward movement will happen in 2 to 3 years, when the adjustments are concluded. 

 

I keep asking myself, can I actually stomach that some more? I am not sure I can................

 

So even though this is about acquiring a dominant defenseman, it is about a greater question, and how we achieve the greater goal..............

 

I would love to hear you answers to this............please indulge! 

Well there are only a few dominating D men in the league, maybe 6... I am so happy we have Hughes and some teams don't have a skilled guy like Hughes so I feel lucky we have Hughes only 21 yrs old..  I would love to see Schneider 20, 6'2, 200lbs could be #2 D man for years to come..Schneider would look great with Vancouver...

Miller trade should get use Schneider 20, 6'2, RD----Chytil, 23, 6'3, 205, C ---1st rounder 25th overall. 2022----Also maybe- Getting 23, 6'4 W

This kind of trade would really help us in the future... Schneider could step in and play #4 or #5 D man now!!

[flickyoursedin]

2 hours ago, Father Ryan said:

I wonder how much it would take to pry Nicholas Hague away from Vegas? One of Benning's glaring drafting mistakes was taking Kole Lind one pick in front of Hague

For a team hurting on defensive prospects having BPA be Hague and choose a winger over him that one was a weird pick. Hague was who I wanted. I was so excited before the 2nd round started us picking 2nd I was like “we’re getting Timmins or Hague whomever is left.

[Provost]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

The best answer is Miller for Schneider.

 

Draft another D or C this summer with our early-ish first.

 

Keep on trucking.

Yep...

Nemec and Jiricek (preferred due to his style) in the draft look like potential top pairing RHD and should be around the 6-12 pick range.  Between them or Geekie one should be left by the time we pick and fill a need unless we do something Canuck like and win just enough games to miss out on the playoffs but make our draft position worse.

 

[Nucker 67]

1 hour ago, Coconuts said:

Schneider would be a great start

Starting to think that's my first choice, if they trade Miller.

 

To NYR for Schneider, Chytil and 1st

 

The 1st would basically be like a high 2nd, but Schneider and Chytil could help the team right away and for years to come. They would fit into that age group with Pettersson and Hughes.