[GDT] Around the NHL | April (17-23) 2022

[Coconuts]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

its a bit odd, but it also shows how crushing of a pick Juolevi was, and I wasn't upset with the pick at the time, seemed like a decent bet. Rathbone might turn into something interesting tho, and I'm curious what Persson can become. 

 

For sure, Juolevi not panning out was devastating for team. Rathbone could be something, but him and Woo are all we have in the system in terms of D who might make the jump sooner than later. We've got some interesting prospects like Persson, but we still don't really have much in the way of D prospects. Same can be said of forwards outside of Klimovich, Lockwood, and Karlsson. And I'd say only Klimovich has top six potential. 

 

Our prospect pool really ain't all that great, which isn't to say we don't have some interesting prospects. We've got to get better at drafting and developing our own players, we've gotten little to nothing outside of the first round. Demko and Hoglander are the only 2nd rounders who've stuck since Demko was drafted, we saw Gaudette make the jump and we might get something out of Lockwood. Hutton and Stecher too, though I've mentioned them as two of the three significant D we've brought along since the mid 2010's. 

 

For a team that's been as mediocre as we have it's painful that we haven't been able to draft and develop better. 

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

 

For a team that's been as mediocre as we have it's painful that we haven't been able to draft and develop better. 

it is, thats hard to argue against. So I won't. 

 

Its one of the reasons I'm kind of binary on our current group. I can see good reasons to run with the current core and add via trade and free agency, or, just blow the mo-fo up and tank proper. 

 

We could probably get 5 or 6 1st round picks over the next two years if we were willing to go full Arizona. 

Edited April 17, 2022 by JM_

[Strawbone]

6 minutes ago, JM_ said:

it is, thats hard to argue against. So I won't. 

 

Its one of the reasons I'm kind of binary on our current group. I can see good reasons to run with the current core and add via trade and free agency, or, just blow the mo-fo up and tank proper. 

 

We could probably get 5 or 6 1st round picks over the next two years if we were willing to go full Arizona. 

You never go full Arizona. 

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

it is, thats hard to argue against. So I won't. 

 

Its one of the reasons I'm kind of binary on our current group. I can see good reasons to run with the current core and add via trade and free agency, or, just blow the mo-fo up and tanker proper. 

It'd def a tough thing.

 

My fear is that we try to go for it sooner than later and end up spinning our wheels in mediocrity, I really don't see our window being sooner than later. I see us as at least four years out. Could we be competitive next season? Sure, but there's a difference between jockeying for a playoff spot and being a contender.

 

We've made the final three times in 50+ years, that some folks thing we'll magically pull our $&!# together and waltz to a final sooner than later despite having not being a regular playoff team since the late 2000's/early 2010's baffles me. I can respect optimism, but I view that kind of hope as incredibly naïve. Most teams have to beat their heads against a playoff wall for years before breaking through, some like Anaheim never do, and we saw some really good Anaheim teams during the 2010's. We've seen it in recent years with St. Louis, Washington, and Tampa finally breaking through. 

 

The aforementioned is why I advocate for the longer game, building around the younger players in Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, ect. We need to accumulate more youth, outside of Hogz and Podz the rest have developed into players who've gotten paydays. We had some great prospects and they all graduated in quick succession, now we need to get more of em in the pipeline and on the roster. 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

It'd def a tough thing.

 

My fear is that we try to go for it sooner than later and end up spinning our wheels in mediocrity, I really don't see our window being sooner than later. I see us as at least four years out. Could we be competitive next season? Sure, but there's a difference between jockeying for a playoff spot and being a contender.

 

but its such a theoretical thing. Look at the year Boston beat us, they weren't anywhere near as good on paper. Look at the run St. Louis went on. Or the LA teams, they weren't really over stacked with talent, 5 or 6 key guys and a lot of good coaching. 

 

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

We've made the final three times in 50+ years, that some folks thing we'll magically pull our $&!# together and waltz to a final sooner than later despite having not being a regular playoff team since the late 2000's/early 2010's baffles me. I can respect optimism, but I view that kind of hope as incredibly naïve. Most teams have to beat their heads against a playoff wall for years before breaking through, some like Anaheim never do, and we saw some really good Anaheim teams during the 2010's. We've seen it in recent years with St. Louis, Washington, and Tampa finally breaking through. 

I think you're forgetting about 2007 Anaheim. 

 

1 minute ago, Coconuts said:

 

The aforementioned is why I advocate for the longer game, building around the younger players in Pettersson, Hughes, Podz, ect. We need to accumulate more youth, outside of Hogz and Podz the rest have developed into players who've gotten paydays. We had some great prospects and they all graduated in quick succession, now we need to get more of em in the pipeline and on the roster. 

The issue is we're just going to lose guys like Bo if we wait 4 more years, imo. Petey may ask for a trade, why would he want to stick around? these guys just have such short careers, asking this current core to stay and wait 4 years to make a run is just asking for a surly group. I'd rather we just blow it up and not try to hang on to these guys, since I don't think we'd be able to anyway if we're really 4 years away. If thats the case then why try to hang on to what Benning drafted? It feels like too much work. 

 

 

[Coconuts]

3 minutes ago, JM_ said:

 

but its such a theoretical thing. Look at the year Boston beat us, they weren't anywhere near as good on paper. Look at the run St. Louis went on. Or the LA teams, they weren't really over stacked with talent, 5 or 6 key guys and a lot of good coaching. 

 

I think you're forgetting about 2007 Anaheim. 

 

The issue is we're just going to lose guys like Bo if we wait 4 more years, imo. Petey may ask for a trade, why would he want to stick around? these guys just have such short careers, asking this current core to stay and wait 4 years to make a run is just asking for a surly group. I'd rather we just blow it up and not try to hang on to these guys, since I don't think we'd be able to anyway if we're really 4 years away. If thats the case then why try to hang on to what Benning drafted? It feels like too much work. 

 

 

The St. Louis bit bugs me, because that roster was clearly better than the hole it dug itself into and I recall hockey folks being baffled that they were as bad as they had been. You almost never see runs like they made, but they should have always been better than they had been. They're an anomaly. LA was a different animal too, as they were built for the playoffs more than the regular season. Coaching factored in, but I recall reading about a player who played against those teams going on about how even their top six played like fourth liners, and they did. 

 

Boston.. I don't really wanna dive into that. Tim Thomas played out of his mind, we couldn't beat him. And by the end of it it wasn't so much as a run as a stumble, injuries caught up with us in the end and the depth that made us a juggernaut during the regular season wasn't there by the end. They repeatedly stomped us in Boston, we scored like.. 8 goals in 7 games. And that was with Luongo pitching two shutouts. 

 

Nah, I didn't forget, but the game was different then. But even they took a while to break through, having lost in the final to Jersey in 03. 

 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. I'd be fine embracing a rebuild, as I think we're a ways out, but I don't think it'd have to be a teardown. But hey, what do I know? 

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

The St. Louis bit bugs me, because that roster was clearly better than the hole it dug itself into and I recall hockey folks being baffled that they were as bad as they had been. You almost never see runs like they made, but they should have always been better than they had been. They're an anomaly. LA was a different animal too, as they were built for the playoffs more than the regular season. Coaching factored in, but I recall reading about a player who played against those teams going on about how even their top six played like fourth liners, and they did. 

 

Boston.. I don't really wanna dive into that. Tim Thomas played out of his mind, we couldn't beat him. And by the end of it it wasn't so much as a run as a stumble, injuries caught up with us in the end and the depth that made us a juggernaut during the regular season wasn't there by the end. They repeatedly stomped us in Boston, we scored like.. 8 goals in 7 games. And that was with Luongo pitching two shutouts. 

 

Nah, I didn't forget, but the game was different then. But even they took a while to break through, having lost in the final to Jersey in 03. 

 

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. I'd be fine embracing a rebuild, as I think we're a ways out, but I don't think it'd have to be a teardown. But hey, what do I know? 

I'm going to steal a bit of info @Baggins just posted - we are 8th in the league since BB took over. We're not a bad team, or a really fringe team if we can add to this group in the offseason. Are we Tampa, no, but even this year they look a bit more human. 

 

Green really drove things into the ground, but we're far better than what he and Baumer made the team into. 

 

A few fortuitous things have to happen. Miller needs to sign something team friendly, and Allvin needs to turn Brock or Garland into a top 4 RHD, and we need to bulk up the F group. its a lot to ask but its also not impossible. 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by JM_

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

I'm going to steal a bit of info @Baggins just posted - we are 8th in the league since BB took over. We're not a bad team, or a really fringe team if we can add to this group in the offseason. Are we Tampa, no, but even this year they look a bit more human. 

 

Green really drove things into the ground, but we're far better than what he and Baumer made the team into. 

 

A few fortuitous things have to happen. Miller needs to sign something team friendly, and Allvin needs to turn Brock or Garland into a top 4 RHD, and we need to bulk up the F group. its a lot to ask but its also not impossible. 

 

 

I saw that, but I still view it as a bit of a mirage. You've gotten what's likely a career season out of Miller and Horvat (goals) and it still wasn't enough, can we count on them replicating that? Horvat? Maybe. Miller? I doubt it. 

 

I don't believe in our D, I attribute our defensive numbers to systems and Boudreau more than our personnel. It's the same personnel after all that were awful under Green. Toronto and Edmonton will make the playoffs, they've gotten good enough performances from their personnel too, but I wouldn't say either team has a good defense. 

 

We'll need two top 4RD, one to replace Hamonic but we'll also need to likely replace Myers sooner than later. We're not as bad as we were, but there are still holes in this roster and a lot of work to do. 

 

I genuinely don't believe Miller signs a team friendly deal, I fully expect him to go for the money. You see fanbases go on about team friendly deals from their top players every season and you rarely see it happen. 

 

I still believe we could be a playoff team without Miller next season, but I don't believe in this roster as currently structured and I've made no bones about it these last few months. We've got some good pieces we could build around, but that's why I don't think any rebuild we do has to be a teardown so much as a reset. 

[AriGold]

This may be the worst lineup in NHL history...

 

[Nucker 67]

39 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

I don't believe in our D,

OEL - ??

Hughes - Schenn

Dermott - Myers

Burroughs

Hunt

 

It needs work. I'm not even sure Schenn is a Top 4 Dman, but he seems to play well with Hughes. They need a better #1RD.

 

 

[-Vintage Canuck-]

The Minnesota Wild have clinched a playoff berth.

[Junkyard Dog]

31 minutes ago, -Vintage Canuck- said:

The Minnesota Wild have clinched a playoff berth.

I wonder if you could meme a playoff berth like you can do the MJ playoff elimination meme. 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I still believe we could be a playoff team without Miller next season, but I don't believe in this roster as currently structured and I've made no bones about it these last few months. We've got some good pieces we could build around, but that's why I don't think any rebuild we do has to be a teardown so much as a reset. 

we just see it differently, and thats OK. I could be wrong, I just see that as the more risky path. You're one of the most level headed posters on CDC though so it does make me think about it as more viable. 

 

Its also nice to just discuss this without hurling insults. 

 

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

OEL - ??

Hughes - Schenn

Dermott - Myers

Burroughs

Hunt

 

It needs work. I'm not even sure Schenn is a Top 4 Dman, but he seems to play well with Hughes. They need a better #1RD.

 

 

Everyone who's not Hughes or OEL is expendable imo. Schenn isn't a top 4 D, he's just playing above his contract and he's one of the guys we've got. He should be a bottom pairing guy but our top 4 is weak. 

 

We need two top 4D sooner than later, one to fill the slot Hamonic was supposed to have filled and one to replace Myers as he's not someone I think we'll retain beyond his current contract. On a good defense Burroughs is maybe our 6th-8th guy. 

 

16 minutes ago, JM_ said:

we just see it differently, and thats OK. I could be wrong, I just see that as the more risky path. You're one of the most level headed posters on CDC though so it does make me think about it as more viable. 

 

Its also nice to just discuss this without hurling insults. 

 

I'd be fine with a legit rebuild, but I really do think that having Hughes, Pettersson, Podz, Demko, and Horvat as building blocks is enough. Will Demko or Horvat be here when we win a cup? Impossible to say, but we've nobody in the pipeline who projects as a #1 goaltender and we could spin our wheels for another 10+ years despite our best efforts anyway. I just see Horvat as being young enough to be a transitional piece who could be value on a 5-6 year deal, which would take him to 33-34. I wouldn't give him more than that. 

 

Time will fly by though, we'll be talking about drafting the next core before you know it, gotta keep things cycling. 

 

And for sure, I don't see eye to eye with folks on things sometimes but I believe that if you've got to make a debate/conversation personal or turn it into a conflict than you've given up some of your credibility. Easier said than done as we all get testy sometimes, but I try to steer clear of it. 

[Coconuts]

7 minutes ago, Muttley said:

Seven goals for the Blues in the second period for crying out loud. Outrageous!  They weren't all masterpieces either.

 

 

Blues could be a sleeper pick come playoff time, last I heard it's just them and the Avs with seven or more players to have scored twenty goals. Could be eight if Thomas can bury a couple more. 

[-Vintage Canuck-]

The Washington Capitals have clinched a playoff berth.

[-Vintage Canuck-]

The New York Islanders have been eliminated from playoff contention.

 

[mll]

2 hours ago, Muttley said:

Seven goals for the Blues in the second period for crying out loud. Outrageous!  They weren't all masterpieces either.

 

 

 

It was a back-to-back for Saros.  He's also started 64 games, tied with Hellebuyck for the most of any goalie this season - fatigue might be catching up.  

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by mll

[Baggins]

6 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I saw that, but I still view it as a bit of a mirage. You've gotten what's likely a career season out of Miller and Horvat (goals) and it still wasn't enough, can we count on them replicating that? Horvat? Maybe. Miller? I doubt it. 

 

I don't believe in our D, I attribute our defensive numbers to systems and Boudreau more than our personnel. It's the same personnel after all that were awful under Green. Toronto and Edmonton will make the playoffs, they've gotten good enough performances from their personnel too, but I wouldn't say either team has a good defense. 

 

We'll need two top 4RD, one to replace Hamonic but we'll also need to likely replace Myers sooner than later. We're not as bad as we were, but there are still holes in this roster and a lot of work to do. 

 

I genuinely don't believe Miller signs a team friendly deal, I fully expect him to go for the money. You see fanbases go on about team friendly deals from their top players every season and you rarely see it happen. 

 

I still believe we could be a playoff team without Miller next season, but I don't believe in this roster as currently structured and I've made no bones about it these last few months. We've got some good pieces we could build around, but that's why I don't think any rebuild we do has to be a teardown so much as a reset. 

It wasn't enough because of the start under Green. But Green is gone. Had Bouda been coaching from the beginning of the season, and maintained his current win percentage, we wouldn't be fighting for a playoff spot, we'd be fighting for first overall in our division. Even at that nobody is saying there aren't improvements needed. We're just saying this team isn't nearly as bad as the full season standings indicate.

 

The Horvat injury is exactly why Miller should be re-signed. Having three top 6 centers, with two capable of playing wing just as well, is an incredible luxury to have. One goes down and you still have two top six C's. Nobody is saying improvements don't need to be made.

[Coconuts]

43 minutes ago, Baggins said:

It wasn't enough because of the start under Green. But Green is gone. Had Bouda been coaching from the beginning of the season, and maintained his current win percentage, we wouldn't be fighting for a playoff spot, we'd be fighting for first overall in our division. Even at that nobody is saying there aren't improvements needed. We're just saying this team isn't nearly as bad as the full season standings indicate.

 

The Horvat injury is exactly why Miller should be re-signed. Having three top 6 centers, with two capable of playing wing just as well, is an incredible luxury to have. One goes down and you still have two top six C's. Nobody is saying improvements don't need to be made.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Didn't happen at the end of the day and here we are with an uncertain future. 

 

I disagree, I don't see having three top six centers down the middle as realistic. Look around the league and tell me how many teams run that kind of roster. I believe strength down the middle, but our lack of Sutter and Beagle type center's down the middle is part of why we're in this mess to begin with.

 

Our PK was hot garbage for much of the season and actively lost us games, had we won some of those games we'd be in a playoff spot. Perhaps I have a more traditional take on center depth, but if you look around the league one can assume many GM's do as well.

 

Improvements do need to be made, but I advocate for the long game as opposed to the short and trading Miller is part of how I'd have us move forward.