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[PGT] Dallas Stars at Vancouver Canucks | Apr. 18, 2022

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Starting goaltender vs. Senators  

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16 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I get it.   But no i don't think it's the best we've ever seen.  The league has bloated itself for a very long time.  If a 37 year old Sakic, can beat out a Sedin in his prime ... i'm sorry i just don't see it.   And put EP back into the 90's or Brock or anyone but maybe Podz, Horvat and Miller - they'd just be crushed.    They were crushed.   Unless you were otherworldly like Mogilny, Bure, Federov etc - you couldn't make do.   How good was Iginla in the 90's?  It's not hard to trace it back.   Sorry Tas i disagree.   Talent was better back then.   It's never just been about skating. 

Nah I disagree. While the game was definitely tougher in a physical aspect, players are now faster and have more skill. Especially the forwards and hybrid D like Makar and Hughes. 

 

Goalies were also brutal back then. All Yzerman and Gretzky had to do was cross the blue line and wire one. Now the steps that need to be taken to create a scoring CHANCE is rediculous. 

 

Now in a 7 game series an 80s team still might win because, as we all know, toughness can at times Trump skill.

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17 minutes ago, tas said:

skating and puck skills are universally superior now. just because guys were allowed to destroy and impede others back then unfettered doesn't mean the talent level was higher. did players need to be tougher? sure. but the talent level is by far better now. 

So i guess the Sedins were chumps then.  Because the guys from the 90's in their 30's sure made them look like it.   Guys all you have to do, if you want, is trace it back.   It's not that difficult.   Game of course is "faster" ... no redline no extra pass.   Zubov at 37.  Sakic too. I'm going to agree to disagree.   The talent level was much higher at the top level back then.    The tier below maybe was similar.    Bure today?  Mogilny or Federov or Selanne?   People have a love affair with Sundins last season and he barely registered in the 90's. 

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3 hours ago, IBatch said:

 

 

Ten guys scored 100 or more .... Wayne's last season at 33 leading the league.  Federov best year 120 and Wayne at 130 - on a terrible LA team. 

 

 

Yes it sure was.   Talent level is just starting to amp up again.   Unlike the 2000's where the guys who were part of those 10 guy crew in their early 20's were still in the top ten or leading the league in scoring in their 30's.   Sakic had his last 100 point season at 37 in the mid-late 2000's ... Jagr, Sundin, Kariya, Selanne, Pronger, Niedermayer, Lidstrom etc.   Was a really weak decade , same with the 2010's...league bloating from 21-24 teams to 32 for sure didn't help with that.     

 

Edit:  Redline , with guys draping on their backs ... hooked and held at every turn.    It sure was a different era.    And if you want to even up save percentages it still holds up.   What's 4-7% difference really?  Even 10% which of course it is not.    The 90's dead puck era...started after the shortened season.  93/94 was the last high scoring year.   Iginla couldn't do it in the 90's but was one of the leagues best players in the 2000's.    Francis also scored over 100 in his 30's ... so did Jagr.   Forsberg straddled both decades.    Zubov scored 73ish points after the lockout at 37 years old.    Those guys would of had an absolute hey day with the rules and the way the game is called today.   Not like the goalies were that bad.  

 

Edit:  If Miller and all the guys ahead of them score 100...this will be the first season since then it was managed ... nice that talent is finally getting back to that point.  Still has a ways to go though.   

I'm not actually disagreeing or agreeing with you, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

 

Are you saying because guys like Sakic and Zubov were top offensive threats in their mid 30s compared to guys like Sedins, that the old guard was more talented?

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57 minutes ago, IBatch said:

So i guess the Sedins were chumps then.  Because the guys from the 90's in their 30's sure made them look like it.   Guys all you have to do, if you want, is trace it back.   It's not that difficult.   Game of course is "faster" ... no redline no extra pass.   Zubov at 37.  Sakic too. I'm going to agree to disagree.   The talent level was much higher at the top level back then.    The tier below maybe was similar.    Bure today?  Mogilny or Federov or Selanne?   People have a love affair with Sundins last season and he barely registered in the 90's. 

comparing sakic to the twins, yes, sakic was a far superior player. he's one of the greatest players of all time. and comparing his historic season (I believe still the oldest player to ever hit 100 points?) to the sedins before they peaked seems like a fairly disingenuous comparison. 

 

selanne is an interesting example too, since it's no coincidence that his rookie year was by far his best. as the league got better around him, he stood out less. in fact, you should check any of those 90s greats and see where they peaked. of course production will (almost) always decline with age, but compare sakic's numbers from the 90s to his numbers in the 00s. he put up way more points in the 90s when the league was worse than he did in the 2000s, even when he was still in his prime competing for cups. 

 

the top end talent wasn't better, but the rest of the league was worse, which made them look better. the gap between elite and average was huge whereas now it's small. back then, guys who were doing offseason training and paying attention to fitness and nutrition and doing skills development were the exception, only the elite who were looking to set themselves apart. now every 14 year old who has even the slightest dream of playing in the league is doing those things. 

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3 minutes ago, tas said:

comparing sakic to the twins, yes, sakic was a far superior player. he's one of the greatest players of all time. and comparing his historic season (I believe still other oldest player to ever hit 100 points?) to the sedins before they peaked seems like a fairly disingenuous comparison. 

 

the top end talent wasn't better, but the rest of the league was worse, which made them look better. the gap between elite and average was huge whereas now it's small. back then, guys who were doing offseason training and paying attention to fitness and nutrition and doing skills development were the exception, only the elite who were looking to set themselves apart. now every 14 year old who has even the slightest dream of playing in the league is doing those things. 

Sakic was awesome, but Forseberg was better.  

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