A lot of talk about a core piece not being here next year.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

Changes made to the core will be to increase team speed and change locker room chemistry as much as they will be for cap flexibility.  

 

The chemistry to me looks fine, but we don't know what's happening in the locker room.  Reading between the lines, to me it appears there's a feeing in management that some of the players don't hate losing enough.

You just made me have flashbacks to last season and beginning of this year.  We're getting blown out and our team is just skating around the opposition, happy to just be in the NHL.  

 

I seem to recall Kevin Bieksa calling out the team on the national broadcast a couple of times too. 

 

As you said, chemistry looks fine, but we could really use a 6'4 version of Garland that hates losing.  It was actually quite a stark contrast at the beginning of the year, when Garland and OEL were still new to the team.  Those two guys were dishing out cross checks and getting into scrums twice as much as our long-standing players.  This is also why I really want Burroughs to have more of a role on the team next year.  

[cowboy644]

On 4/29/2022 at 9:15 AM, -DLC- said:

You can't predict the future and Vegas "will be" is included in that. 

 

You're looking/talking on paper but it's so much more complex than that. Which is what Edmonton showed us over the years....we have a coach in place now who can get results out of this group, that's just been proven in how close they did come to squeaking in to playoffs they had no business even thinking about.

 

There aren't "glaring holes". There are ways we can improve for sure, but you ignore all that they have done and you've thought this team was trash from square one this season. I think you miss a whole lot of good stuff that happened being blinded by that. The team that started the year is much different than the one that finished it and they've learned a lot about themselves with Bruce a the helm. 

Sorry Deb but you are way wrong.Our top players lack foot speed verses the top teams in the league.Our D core is terribly permissive.Myers is an absolute mess.The team has know idea what they will get game to game with him.Really good,ok,or full chaos girraffe.There is one reason and one reason only this team cracked 90 points let alone 85.Thatcher Demko.This is where the conversation reaches full stop about keeping this version of most the canucks together.

[Baratheon]

It was a fun ride this year and I’m excited to see how we do next year! We have taken some big steps and I share in all the optimism.  
 

At the same time I just can’t see all of the new people that we added to management sitting down in a board room and saying “You know what? Bruce there it is!  Our job is done! Thanks JB!”

This team feels like an up and comer.  That’s a good thing but I want us to graduate in to a cup favourite.  I’d have to assume that JR and the rest feel the same way.

[-DLC-]

15 minutes ago, cowboy644 said:

Sorry Deb but you are way wrong.Our top players lack foot speed verses the top teams in the league.Our D core is terribly permissive.Myers is an absolute mess.The team has know idea what they will get game to game with him.Really good,ok,or full chaos girraffe.There is one reason and one reason only this team cracked 90 points let alone 85.Thatcher Demko.This is where the conversation reaches full stop about keeping this version of most the canucks together.

And I say you are, so that's what we have here. Differing opinions, that's all.

 

I've watched guys with brilliant foot speed...Mason Raymond comes to mind. Wins the race, but not always the game. Good positioning and stick work can offset some of that speed you're worried about. I'm more worried about grit than I am foot speed. 

 

Demko really did give us a chance but he's not the sole reason..he doesn't score the goals, he just prevents them. You've got to give credit where it's due and these guys came on in the second half of the season, whether you saw it or not.

[Alflives]

19 minutes ago, cowboy644 said:

Sorry Deb but you are way wrong.Our top players lack foot speed verses the top teams in the league.Our D core is terribly permissive.Myers is an absolute mess.The team has know idea what they will get game to game with him.Really good,ok,or full chaos girraffe.There is one reason and one reason only this team cracked 90 points let alone 85.Thatcher Demko.This is where the conversation reaches full stop about keeping this version of most the canucks together.

Let’s look at our top players and determine if the actually play fast.  Foot speed is one thing, but does the player play the game fast is more helpful to winning.

Miller.  He slows the game down to do his best.  He is poor defensively.  He doesn’t play fast at all.

Bo.  Bo tries to play fast, but really isn’t a guy who is playing fast.  Ho too isn’t very good defensively.  Another guy who plays slow.

Petey.  Petey is super smart and plays great defensively.  He isn’t a fat skater, but plays very fast. 

Hughes.  Fast in all ways.  Speeds to game to super fast with his reads and passing.  Plays super fast.

Boeser.  Slug slow in every way.

[DrJockitch]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Let’s look at our top players and determine if the actually play fast.  Foot speed is one thing, but does the player play the game fast is more helpful to winning.

Miller.  He slows the game down to do his best.  He is poor defensively.  He doesn’t play fast at all.

Bo.  Bo tries to play fast, but really isn’t a guy who is playing fast.  Ho too isn’t very good defensively.  Another guy who plays slow.

Petey.  Petey is super smart and plays great defensively.  He isn’t a fat skater, but plays very fast. 

Hughes.  Fast in all ways.  Speeds to game to super fast with his reads and passing.  Plays super fast.

Boeser.  Slug slow in every way.

Agree with some of this but this season Bo’s possession/defensive stats took a big jump.
The problem was more every D-man not named Hughes was getting buried in possession metrics mostly because none of them provided meaningful offence. 

My biggest disappointment with Pettey is he doesn’t use his speed and hasn’t developed his power/speed game.  He actually is really very fast and since he doesn’t weigh much has really good acceleration. If he would do the old Bure drop shoulder, cut to the net with speed and power he would draw a tonne of penalties. 
Miller probably looks faster than he is because he is cherry picking a lot but his offensive game has pace but more because of quick processing and puck movement. Doesn’t have the speed to leg out his gaffes like the high drop passes. 

[DownUndaCanuck]

I'd be happy if we try and keep the extended core together, including Boeser and Miller, but that's a lot of cap getting eaten up and you just know Podkolzin is going to drop 30 goals the year he needs to be re-signed.

 

Sadly either Boeser/Garland/Miller for a young defenceman (+ pieces back depending on which player) makes the most sense cap-wise and balance-wise for this team.

 

Also this is all assuming we dump Dickinson and Poolman for scraps/picks/nothing.

[Baratheon]

7 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I'd be happy if we try and keep the extended core together, including Boeser and Miller, but that's a lot of cap getting eaten up and you just know Podkolzin is going to drop 30 goals the year he needs to be re-signed.

 

Sadly either Boeser/Garland/Miller for a young defenceman (+ pieces back depending on which player) makes the most sense cap-wise and balance-wise for this team.

 

Also this is all assuming we dump Dickinson and Poolman for scraps/picks/nothing.

If they keep the core then it has to be at a cap hit that allows us to still make some reasonably significant additions.  Even if you take the Canucks record since BB was hired, we are still 13th overall in points during that time span. (11th in points percentage) That's just not good enough unless the goal is just to get in the playoffs and hope we go on a hot streak.  There have only been 2 teams in the salary cap era (St. Louis 2019 and LA 2012) to win the cup while falling outside the top 10 in regular season points. 

 

Something has to give!

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Baratheon said:

If they keep the core then it has to be at a cap hit that allows us to still make some reasonably significant additions.  Even if you take the Canucks record since BB was hired, we are still 13th overall in points during that time span. (11th in points percentage) That's just not good enough unless the goal is just to get in the playoffs and hope we go on a hot streak.  There have only been 2 teams in the salary cap era (St. Louis 2019 and LA 2012) to win the cup while falling outside the top 10 in regular season points. 

 

Something has to give!

Maybe having Demko (who can win series as super hero Bubble Boy) the plan is to get into the playoffs and see what happens? 

[Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Maybe having Demko (who can win series as super hero Bubble Boy) the plan is to get into the playoffs and see what happens? 

Hope is not a plan!

 

Don't get me wrong.  If we made the playoffs then I would be cheering and hoping like everyone else.  It was fun going in to the playoffs knowing that Luongo gave us a chance. It was more fun once he had a top end team in front of him.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

If they keep the core then it has to be at a cap hit that allows us to still make some reasonably significant additions.  Even if you take the Canucks record since BB was hired, we are still 13th overall in points during that time span. (11th in points percentage) That's just not good enough unless the goal is just to get in the playoffs and hope we go on a hot streak.  There have only been 2 teams in the salary cap era (St. Louis 2019 and LA 2012) to win the cup while falling outside the top 10 in regular season points. 

 

Something has to give!

13th is absolutely good enough.  For some perspective, that would be Washington Capitals if you look at the entire season.  

 

We are not going to become a Stanley Cup contender and a top 5 team in the league overnight.  We cannot skip the steps along the way, and we need to go from being the 18th best team in the league (this season) to the 13th best team in the league (hopefully next season).  

 

I've been on the bandwagon of moving on from Brock Boeser for many reasons.  His spot on the power play can be filled by someone else, and Chiasson did it better.  Boeser's production at 5 on 5 was 20 points.  Forwards that produced more at 5 on 5 include: JT, Garland, Petey, Pearson, Horvat, and Podkolzin.  

I wish Brock nothing but the best, but he just cannot be justified on this team, at anything even remotely close to 7 mil/year.  

Freeing up that money allows us to keep JT, Horvat, and everyone else.  If Allvin and JR are shrewd enough, we can also recover a few picks/prospects along the way.  

 

If we manage to shed a bit of cap space, accumulate an extra pick or two, and still maintain 13th overall in the league and make the playoffs...  that would be a very successful season in my books.  As much flack as Jimbo caught for saying that we are two years away last summer, he was for all intents and purposes right. 

[alt kilgore]

Sometimes I wonder how much JR will play it by ear.  That there is no plan set in stone yet.

That the direction he takes the team this summer will depend of so many factors that he really has to let circumstances play out first.

 

ie..If he is getting indications from Miller's camp that he wants to stay and is open to a team friendly discount in his next contract. If he can get a 1st round pick or a promising RHS D, for Boeser. If he can replace Dickenson and find a competent 3rd line C. JR may feel he can salvage enough to put up a decent team next season, and so look more short term for now. Take advantage of Petey and Hughes, MIller and Demko as they are at their peak or coming into it.

 

conversely, if indications are that Miller wants too much or too long term, if he can't get what he wants for Boeser, and so signs him for more than he wants to and moves Miler instead.  Can't unload Dickenson and some other vets for much. Then JR may decide to go for more of a stripped down rebuild,  Trade players like Myers. and walk away from older vets and get younger. And so begin a process that won't show fruit until a few years. With the hopes we'd be stronger and any success more sustainable. Although wasting a couple of seasons for Petey and Quinn.

 

It would actually make a lot of sense to not be too committed to a Masterplan quite yet.  Other teams needs may change, or injuries dictate trades etc.

 

Does anyone remember that the Canucks purported to have offered Brock 7 x 7 in 2019 and he turned it down?  I'm thinking he may be regretting that now.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, kilgore said:

Sometimes I wonder how much JR will play it by ear.  That there is no plan set in stone yet.

That the direction he takes the team this summer will depend of so many factors that he really has to let circumstances play out first.

 

ie..If he is getting indications from Miller's camp that he wants to stay and is open to a team friendly discount in his next contract. If he can get a 1st round pick or a promising RHS D, for Boeser. If he can replace Dickenson and find a competent 3rd line C. JR may feel he can salvage enough to put up a decent team next season, and so look more short term for now. Take advantage of Petey and Hughes, MIller and Demko as they are at their peak or coming into it.

 

conversely, if indications are that Miller wants too much or too long term, if he can't get what he wants for Boeser, and so signs him for more than he wants to and moves Miler instead.  Can't unload Dickenson and some other vets for much. Then JR may decide to go for more of a stripped down rebuild,  Trade players like Myers. and walk away from older vets and get younger. And so begin a process that won't show fruit until a few years. With the hopes we'd be stronger and any success more sustainable. Although wasting a couple of seasons for Petey and Quinn.

 

It would actually make a lot of sense to not be too committed to a Masterplan quite yet.  Other teams needs may change, or injuries dictate trades etc.

 

Does anyone remember that the Canucks purported to have offered Brock 7 x 7 in 2019 and he turned it down?  I'm thinking he may be regretting that now.

I agree that JR/Allvin have serval plans in place each contingent on certain previous actions.  

Im curious what the first action will be?

Is bringing back Boudreau an action that sets a course of actions to follow?  Or is that more so the Miller deal?  What about Bo?  Would signing him set other actions in motion?

im thinking the Miller deal is the key to what direction we take.  Re-sign Miller and we are all in the next four years.  Move Miller and we are stripping down.  

[Xanlet]

I really think people need to go look at the contracts signed by the top teams in the league right now. Take Carolina for example. Teuvo Teravainen put up 64 points in 82 games, and then was part way through a season where he put up 76 points in 82 games and he signed for $5.4M a year for 5 years which will end when he is 30 years old.

 

Boeser is coming off a year where he had 46 points in 71 games. Also, if you observe the two players, Teravainen gets the edge in the defensive category. This is to say, Teravainen is the superior player. If anything, Boeser requires a pay cut if this team is serious about becoming a winner, since it is teams with contracts like Teravainen who they will be competing with.

 

If Boeser receives anything over $6M a year, he will be harming the team's chances of winning unless he steps up his play significantly from what he has shown so far.

 

Other examples would be Sam Reinhart (pretty comparable to Boeser but signed $6.5M and then put up 82 points in 78 games), Sam Bennett (went to Florida and put up 20 points in 15 games, signed for $4.4M and has put up 49 points in 71 games), and Andre Burakovsky (put up 45 points in 58 games and then 17 points in 15 playoff games and was signed for 2 years at $4.9M a year.)

 

TL;DR: Boeser needs to sign for less than $6M, or sign for more and magically increase his scoring by 50%

[Baratheon]

52 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

13th is absolutely good enough.  For some perspective, that would be Washington Capitals if you look at the entire season.  

 

We are not going to become a Stanley Cup contender and a top 5 team in the league overnight.  We cannot skip the steps along the way, and we need to go from being the 18th best team in the league (this season) to the 13th best team in the league (hopefully next season).  

 

I've been on the bandwagon of moving on from Brock Boeser for many reasons.  His spot on the power play can be filled by someone else, and Chiasson did it better.  Boeser's production at 5 on 5 was 20 points.  Forwards that produced more at 5 on 5 include: JT, Garland, Petey, Pearson, Horvat, and Podkolzin.  

I wish Brock nothing but the best, but he just cannot be justified on this team, at anything even remotely close to 7 mil/year.  

Freeing up that money allows us to keep JT, Horvat, and everyone else.  If Allvin and JR are shrewd enough, we can also recover a few picks/prospects along the way.  

 

If we manage to shed a bit of cap space, accumulate an extra pick or two, and still maintain 13th overall in the league and make the playoffs...  that would be a very successful season in my books.  As much flack as Jimbo caught for saying that we are two years away last summer, he was for all intents and purposes right. 

Agreed!  We are on the same page here.  I do not expect them to become a top 5 team overnight.  

 

It is the people who feel we should essentially run with the same roster next year that I disagree with.  As you say, we cannot skip steps along the way.  We do need to take them however.  Perhaps I am misunderstanding but it feels like some here think we are ready to be contenders right now based on our run with Bruce. 

 

Also agree with you that 13th overall while shedding cap and adding picks would be a successful season.  That is in fact, exactly what I am hoping for. 

[Kragar]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:15 AM, -DLC- said:

There aren't "glaring holes". There are ways we can improve for sure, but you ignore all that they have done and you've thought this team was trash from square one this season. I think you miss a whole lot of good stuff that happened being blinded by that. The team that started the year is much different than the one that finished it and they've learned a lot about themselves with Bruce a the helm. 

Exactly. The most glaring hole was dealt with.  Take the team's pace with Bruce coming in and Petey post-injury recovery through the whole season, and we're neck and neck with the Coilers fighting for 2nd

[Elias Pettersson]

12 hours ago, cowboy644 said:

Sorry Deb but you are way wrong.Our top players lack foot speed verses the top teams in the league.Our D core is terribly permissive.Myers is an absolute mess.The team has know idea what they will get game to game with him.Really good,ok,or full chaos girraffe.There is one reason and one reason only this team cracked 90 points let alone 85.Thatcher Demko.This is where the conversation reaches full stop about keeping this version of most the canucks together.

Hughes, Miller, Pettersson, Horvat and Garland lack foot speed?  What team are you watching?

[Kragar]

10 hours ago, Alflives said:

I agree that JR/Allvin have serval plans in place each contingent on certain previous actions.  

Im curious what the first action will be?

 

You don't wanna mess with a serval, Alf... that's no housecat

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

12 hours ago, Baratheon said:

If they keep the core then it has to be at a cap hit that allows us to still make some reasonably significant additions.  Even if you take the Canucks record since BB was hired, we are still 13th overall in points during that time span. (11th in points percentage) That's just not good enough unless the goal is just to get in the playoffs and hope we go on a hot streak.  There have only been 2 teams in the salary cap era (St. Louis 2019 and LA 2012) to win the cup while falling outside the top 10 in regular season points. 

 

Something has to give!

I agree, but I think we'll be even better under Bruce next season. Petey and Hughes will be better. Miller may drop off a bit. Boeser has to be better. Garland and Bo will be the same or better. Podz will be a 20+ goal scorer.

 

Hoglander and our young 4th line will only be better. Our PK was around 80% under Bruce and will surely be the same if not improved.

 

I just worry about OEL, Schenn and Myers who are all getting older and slower but if they can keep playing at the same level, we'll be good. Dermott is still improving and you have to think the AHL point per game Rathbone breaks into the league next year somehow.

 

Our goalies will be better too - Demko is still improving and with a reduced workload thanks to a real backup in Martin, he won't have as many leaky games.

 

Honestly I think we have a top 10 team on our hands. We don't need massive changes. A top right handed defenceman would be nice, as would a 3C, but we could easily go into next season the way we are now (fairly forward heavy) and still be a top 10 team. 

 

We're easily a top 3 team in the division. Calgary will surely not be able to keep this up as Marky, Tanev and some of their veterans get older. Edmonton's goaltending and defence issues leaves them vulnerable. LA is improving but I don't see them as a threat yet. A healthy Vegas should be a top-3 Pacific team but this Eichel curse is proving otherwise right now. 

 

We can contend with Calgary, Edmonton and Vegas next season for sure, I don't think there'll be a clear winner of the division but we'll be right there amongst it.

[Alflives]

59 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Hughes, Miller, Pettersson, Horvat and Garland lack foot speed?  What team are you watching?

Hughes is fabulous.  Miller isn’t fast or quick.  Petey is brilliant and smarter than others so anticipation makes him fast.  Bo is fast fir sure.  Garland is quick, but not at all fast.