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A new culture is needed

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On 5/3/2022 at 10:26 AM, -DLC- said:

They ARE building a culture...that comes over time and not just by insertion of a few tough guys (although that doesn't hurt either...unless you're the guy they're targeting).

 

Schenn has been HUGE in how he's taken care of business and had the team's back. But it's going to take a toll on him, he can't be the only one.

 

The past few games I've noticed a few scrums where the guys ARE more engaged...they're fueled by momentum and some success that gives them confidence. Bo is like Linden...that's not his game. I want every player to play tough...by that, I mean not be afraid to crash and bang out there in puck battles. To not shy away.

 

Building a hockey team's a bit different than baseball/basketball...it's much more physical and fast moving. Skill and speed are important too, so just getting tough guys isn't the answer, they have to be able to do more. 

 

Give it time to come together...the team's been through a period like no other with COVID and changes. Allow the dust to settle a bit and I'm sure you'll see more of a culture change with a coach/leader who believes in them. Starts there.

 

Miller has been shifting the culture and what some saw as only negative with him is a guy who's passionate and emotional about the game. Fired up and, yes, at some times depleted. 

 

He and Bo make a great leadership duo in my mind.

I agree

 

They have a good thing going.

BB is trying to grow the culture  by bringing in the Belt etc.

It could have been cringy but it's not. It's worked well. We have a locker room of good guys. 

I think it would be more disruptive and harmful to the team if we wrecked what we have going.

 

I don't know what we ended the year at but near the end of the season, BB's team was on pace for 110 pts.

Losing Pearson and Horvat, and to a lesser extent Hogz and Poolman hurt.

Demko was playing injured the last month

 

Trading Motte away at the deadline sucked too.

 

No one expected Petey to be in such a terrible slump the first half

We rescheduled games when we were healthy and playing really good hockey

We then got decimated with covid

 

Pretty much everything that could have gone wrong this season happened and we still almost made the playoffs.. 

 

But also, a lot of really good things for the future happened this season.

 

Petey experienced adversity and fought through it.  This will be invaluable in the future and will give him the confidence to fight through slumps

Podz took a huge step forward this season.

Schenn looks good under BB's system. (pressuring up ice is much better than backpedalling and giving up our own blue line for a slow footed d-man)

Burroughs was a great surprise (although BB didn't utilize him as much as I hoped)

Hughes looks like a solid 2 way player now

Demko is one of the league's best goalies on an amazing contract.

I would say we are easily a 110 pt team next year once everyone returns healthy and BB has a full training camp wth our guys.

 

We may not be Colorado but I think we can run wth teams like Cgy and Edmonton no problem and those guys added at the deadline...

But even Colorado, we had a game with ZERO turnovers and won the game in Colorado where they have one the the most dominant home records. That's pretty elite. You can't fluke somthing like that.

 

I was literally only dissapointed in 3 of games this season since BB took over.

It was the NYI, ANa and NJ game.  Oh yeah and that homestand leading up to TDL.

 

That's literally it.

Everything else was understandable.  Ofcourse a SE roadtrip will suck when you are losing key roster players and playing your 4th string goalie.

Ofcourse games will be tough to win without your best faceoff centreman and 30 goal scorer.

 

I see the glasss half full with this team

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I'm also taking about Wendel Clark.   and Bobby Clarke  ...  he was my first favourite player growing up (Bobby)   Because i was a kid and thought his smile and hair was b!tching.    I get the history of the game from the 50's and up thanks to my parents generation and the books i've read about it.   Not an expert. But can say the death of the enforcer had serious consequences, as did more then anything salary disclosure and further expansion as far as entertainment value goes.   Bench clearing brawls growing up were common lol.   Get the instigator rule and why it was needed and also how it was fiercely combatted by some traditionalists as well  (the rats will have free reign lol ... didn't really happen did it?).   Price of progress.   The league would be much better off with 24 teams as far as product goes.    21 league team isn't called the golden era of hockey for nothing.    Way too many teams miss the playoffs - and the league took decades to approach the quality of play as well.   People think the athletes are way better today ... well maybe then the 70's - but absolutely not the 80-90's.   They are not.     Easy to trace back.   Iginla wasn't good in the 90's... Lidstrom was ok but not top level yet.    Dead puck era was a result of expanding and putting too many plugs into circulation.    And a regular season game back then was worse then most post season games now as far as how players were treated (and most wasn't called).    Change takes time.    Fighting your way into the league is long gone (literally).    We want to talk about toughness.   Well the NHL looks like approaching what the Euro leagues are like now in that respect.   So where are we going to get it?    It is a generational thing.   Not their fault - it's "progress".    My final answer is what we have is what we are going to get.    Enforcers are gone and won't come back (and i'm not again talking about goons there is a difference).    The only saving grace is some people have that gene and some don't.   Schenn does obviously.    And like i said before - it only takes a few to get the rest to man up.    The game is still the best in the world despite the change.   But this "toughness" subject comes up every single year on the CDC ... because even the younger generations saw more of it if they were around since 2010 or so.   Both on the team and in the league.   Those guys have mostly aged out or are gone.    Gadj was a throwback ... why i was so dissapointed to see him go ... Burroughs looks to have it too, and Schenn was a pleasant surprise for me at least.    

Good post.

 

It will be interesting to see where the game goes.  To me we are in a bit of an in between stage currently.  There is just enough "old school" hockey left over that I think a lot of players let up on their hits.  Every time there's a heavy hit in today's game it's like an instant scrum.  Just not worth it for many players when they can find a different way to separate the opponent from the puck.  If the league clamps down further on fighting/scrums do we then see players start getting blown up like the NFL?  And if that happens then does that shorten the average lifespan of an NHL player due to injuries?  That would cause issues for the league but they wouldn't re-introduce fighting at that time to fix the problem.  All hypothetical of course but I do wonder where this eventually leads.

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2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Huh?  Probert and Clarke could play the game too you know that right?   Who would you rather have on your fourth line ... Domi (who could also play the game), Probert  ... Clark wasn't a goon at all lol - a power forward all 5'11 and 200lbs of him ...  They don't have to be ancient history.    It's just that this generation simply isn't willing to do what they did.   Bobby Clark was protected.   And as a result could play his game to its fullest.   That's also my point.   Same as Gretzky.   IF Crosby didn't have to deal with what he did - the transition period - he'd have been safe with a Semenko on his wing.   He didn't have that and almost had his career cut short.   Gretzky even said that in his book.    Now the " new and improved" system is locked in.   But the product simply is not as good.   Both for the fans and the players.   How many hand injured occurred after the enforcers and goons left the game?   It used to be a code violation.   It got so bad that the league had to crack down heavy on it ... probably already forgot that right?   Crosby took Methot's finger off - everyone was doing it.   That didn't exist in the game before like that anyways.   You won't convince me that the game is better off without power forward like Wendel Clark, Rick Tocchet, Cam Neely, Shayne Corson, Kevin Stevens, Shanny, plus plus plus plus plus ... Probert and Domi could easily play 7-10 years in this league at their peak playing fourth line minutes.   Which now is around 10. 

If you read what I wrote it says that there will always be a place for players like Clark. He was legit. Where there isn’t room is for the Sestito’s of the league as well as the idea is all you need is a goon sitting on the end of the bench to be “tough”. You need an overall team approach of toughness.   
Naming a bunch of the best power forwards in the history of the game doesn’t change where the game is now. These are exactly the types of players you need to have team toughness, not Brashear or Sistito or other dinosaurs that can’t skate and can’t play the game. 
The fact that a goon almost ended the career of a legitimate franchise player just furthers the arguments that goons are more of a problem than a benefit and rightfully have a place in the past for the most part. 

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6 hours ago, IBatch said:

How about all of the above?   Pretty sure we see tough when we see it.   Tanev was/is tough ... got injured a lot while here but look at his game.   Edler and the Sedins were tough in the Swedish way,  anyone who can push their bodies the way they did are tough.   Most hockey players in general are tough.   

 

But there definitely is layers of toughness.   You don't get a name like Tiger if there isn't something to it.   I believe - and i maybe i'm just talking out my ass - but believe that a lot of older posters, ones who have been around for at least the 90's but even back to the 70's when Slap Shot was made to make fun of the way the game was played then.     In other words it's "tough" at times to watch players skate away without even a scrum, and it's "tough" when Jay freaking Beagle is the only guy going into scrums on a regular basis - when he started he wasn't a tough guy really lol.   Just a gritty middle six guy.   I think it has a lot to do with generations.   Baby boomers and Gen x players, knew their role and played as if their lives depended on it.   Rivalries existed.   Certain teams hated other teams.    The "average player" was pretty darn tough in all the ways you described.  

 

Know the games changed.   And factually it was bad for the game when goons came in just to have their 4:00 minutes of ice time.    Of course the fans loved it - but that's not an enforcer.   That element of the game is almost gone now.   Well it is actually completely gone.   Even power forwards are all but non-existent.    Wilson that's about it.   Used to be 20 or so of those guys around for decades, that could go to-toe with the toughest of the tough.   

 

The game isn't the same.    It's got no redline.   Eliminating a pass in that zone for sure sped the game up.   Hitting which used to be an art form is now tentative.  And for good reason - almost entirely because of Matt Cooke, but he wasn't the only head hunter.    Stevens ... wow.   Doubt we will ever, ever see a hitter like him again.   

 

Back to power forwards.   Guys like Shane Corson, who wasn't even a power forward really, would destroy most guys in the league today.   Then you have Roberts (go watch him beat the tar out of 230 pound Ben Eager at 41 lol),  who did run McLean 3 times in one game back in 94 .... a level up but not much.   It hasn't been that easy as a fan to watch the game change.   This is the first season since the 90's at least that a bunch of players made it to 100 points.   And the new generation of defenseman finally look to be something like i was used to watching.    League bloated to 32 teams.   From 6.   Since expansion.   Expansion brought the enforcer into the forefront, was absolutely a good time for the fans and the players (ask any of them who played back then and they'd say they simply loved having them on their team...Probert's all-star game every single star was waiting in line to meet him and shake his hand ... ).  

 

All this complaining about the reffing.   Well the league went from right wing all the way to the far left.   Big brother is supposed to take care of the players.   But the game is still the game, and you always need something to fill in the cracks.    Back to team toughness, personally i think it's simply impossible to have without at least one player towing the line, and the easiest way to get that is with one or two guys that play the game on a different wavelength, one that involves protecting the group not just themselves.   Schenn for sure has this in his DNA.    A lot of guys do - most of them become soldiers, fire fighters or policeman.    Girls too just to be gender fair.  

 

Edit: Finally my main point is IF you have a guy or a big (can also be a little brother!) who's got your back and you know that - going into the corners and giving a little sneaky butt end stick to the ribs or an elbow in the liver or extra shove or whatever (stuff that doesn't get called) everything gets elevated.   For me at least, team starts and stops with whom you've go in the roster who's willing to go there.    Tyler Minors has this in him too, not his fault he's freaking so much taller his hits and plays don't always work out.    I like this team.   Adding some "toughness" is never a bad thing. 

So then it sounds like we're estabilishing more of a "grey area" in terms of what's tough and what's not. This grey area's probably also going to depend on who you ask. I've seen many threads here while players like Tanev and Edler were here saying we were not tough. I also see people claiming that 2011 were not tough. So perhaps this isn't as set of a definition as you're making it out to be. It's your definition of tough, which is fine, but I bet if you set a poll on any player you mentioned asking if they were tought or not, you'd probably get mixed results.

 

Perhaps though, this is where the "layers of toughness" you're talking about comes into play; yet, again, this is something that could be defined differently depending on who you ask.

 

I guess my personal opinion is that there are many different makeups of teams. There's also no single right or wrong answer to any of this. You could have a team where you have a single tough guy, or you could have a team that will just stand up for each other period. Thinking about this on the fly though, I have a proposal that perhaps toughness is not about getting single players that are "tough" so much as it is changing the culture of the team in general. Get players who buy in to the coaches' style of play, perhaps natually they are tougher to play against. One thing's for sure: I'd be much more scared of a motivated team than I would a single tough guy. ;)

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