[Report] Canucks fire 5 amateur scouts

[filthycanuck]

6 minutes ago, mll said:

Not necessarily.  Guerin has given full autonomy to Brackett including the 1st round - was quoted saying that it's not the time for him to intervene or it would just get them in trouble.  Yzerman similar statement saying he would just be meddling and explains that watching a player a few times and then deciding who to pick would be akin to throwing darts.  

 

Podkolzin was Brackett's pick.  He left just ahead of the 2020 draft - Canucks didn't pick before the 3rd round that year. 

 

MacIntyre writes:  "But Juolevi was Benning’s choice back in 2016 because the GM wanted a defenceman and loved what he saw from the Finn at the world juniors. He could have chosen Mikhail Sergachev or Charlie McAvoy. Benning is believed to have gone with Brackett’s first-round recommendation ever since."

 

I actually don't mind if Brackett somehow makes his way back here. Contrary to the Benning fanboys, Brackett was the real mastermind of Jimbo's supposed success in the draft

[filthycanuck]

16 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

I believe it was reported that younger brother Nicholas Benning was the one assaulted.

Brandon Benning (the scout who just got fired) is the older of Jim Benning’s two sons.

 

Jim Benning also has two daughters, Danica and Isabella.

Im pretty sure he's got another daughter. Dazzle Benning. Posts in CDC, makes a lot of excuses ,pretty much defends daddy Jimbo to no end, hypes the prospects thread like they are sure fire hall of famers,  and whines like a little school girl when hes called out on facts

[filthycanuck]

1 hour ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Surprised this wasn't done sooner when we hired new management and cleaned house but it has to be done any time a new regime wants to come in and employ their own way of scouting and drafting.

 

Allvin's draft record scares me a bit so hopefully they get some very fresh guys in.

Frankly I don't care how they do it, whether its missing on 1st round picks but signing good UFA's , getting college free agents, i don't care. Im sick of all the losing

[filthycanuck]

2 hours ago, iinatcc said:

He must have been uncomfortable all the time then

I think we could've planned the Cup parade had Aqua replaced Jim Benning with a tickle me Elmo

[filthycanuck]

12 hours ago, iinatcc said:

Kind of makes my description of Benning running the Canucks like a mom and pop shop even more valid 

Don't insult mom and pop shops like that. Unlike Jim, those mom and pops can actually run a business

[iinatcc]

58 minutes ago, filthycanuck said:

Don't insult mom and pop shops like that. Unlike Jim, those mom and pops can actually run a business

Who knows maybe Benning can run a successful hockey card store. Ok I am being mean now 

Edited May 7, 2022 by iinatcc

[Goal:thecup]

3 hours ago, filthycanuck said:

Im pretty sure he's got another daughter. Dazzle Benning. Posts in CDC, makes a lot of excuses ,pretty much defends daddy Jimbo to no end, hypes the prospects thread like they are sure fire hall of famers,  and whines like a little school girl when hes called out on facts

And, with that, the gloves are off!

[DSVII]

12 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

His position was to file scouting reports! lol 

 

Come on, let's stop with this petty hate towards Benning.  Move on. 

just expressing my doubts as his time in Calgary was being used as a defense against claims of nepotism earlier in this thread. Weisbrod and his relationship with JB is the connection there.

 

And it's not petty hating JB on a personal level, it's a celebration for the franchise. Fans are going to move on the same way Americans moved on from the 4th of July. 

 

I also find it ironic that only months later you're asking people to move on when the corpse of Gillis has been brought up by JB defenders for years to justify the state of the team. Bennings cap crunch and the state of the farm is going to affect us for years. People have memories of the last 8 years. Talk isn't going to stop.

 

Anyways that's enough for this thread. Back to the scouts. 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by DSVII

[Gurn]

21 minutes ago, DSVII said:

just expressing my doubts as his time in Calgary was being used as a defense against claims of nepotism earlier in this thread

His time in Calgary is being used to prove that he actually had experience in the field; something a poster claimed he did not.

You may think it isn't enough experience, you may still think he was hired because Jim is his Dad; but the fact remains- Brandon had previous experience as a scout.

[Googlie]

19 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Interesting timing for this change... Hopefully it doesn't negatively affect our 2022 draft. 

We're just going to draft Europeans and US college players

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Googlie said:

We're just going to draft Europeans and US college players

maybe thats not a bad idea, since Euro players aren't subject to AHL-CHL age restrictions. We can get our prospects into Abby faster out of Europe. 

[Googlie]

15 hours ago, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Just in case you're serious, "amateur scout" isn't that the scout is amateur, it's that they're scouting amateur players (ie. players who haven't turned pro yet).  I'm certain the scouts are paid more generously than what most of us fans are making.

Typical amateur scout salaries are around $40k to $50k, plus expenses (which can often exceed salaries). Scouts are usually on a year by year contract, although a few have multi year deals. Termination costs will generally be just the outstanding term of the contract 

 

(I play golf in the desert with the father of one)

[lmm]

18 hours ago, Mo Grit said:

Ya'd think any and all scouting info should belong as intellectual property of the Org which paid for its discovery.

Cant see any Org wanting that leaked to rivals before the draft.

Not sure it matters with the Canucks fired staff.  As they were let go for lifetime incompetence, their notes are worthless.

Mebbe JR's intelligence division has sent them packing with false papers, hoping they'll be hired within our division.

Still not sure of the rules which prevent an amateur scout from working for whoever he pleases, at anytime.

If he's amateur then by definition he's not getting paid.

I would guess the financial incentive to actually go out and watch players is a commission when one of your 'finds' offered

a pro contract.  Canucks' scouts must have already been living for quite a while on streets, under cardboard boxes.

I think one of us misunderstands the term "Amateur Scout"

I believe Amateur Scout means, a scout who scouts amateur players it is different than being an amateur player

but who knows maybe I have been wrong all this time

As far as intellectual property, scouts, amateur and otherwise are under contract, while under contract the team "owns" their knowledge

once a team cuts a scout (or a director of scouting, or a GM)  loose, the team relinquishes the rights to what is in that persons head.

 

If Travis Green learned anything, (and I am not suggesting that he did) while he was Canuck coach, he is not obligated to forget that knowledge because he no longer works for the Canucks.

Intellectual property is not the same as knowledge gained

[Alflives]

10 hours ago, VancouverHabitant said:

 

Can we agree that the 1st round pick is always GM's call and that the rest of the picks are more so choices of the scouts?  Demko was drafted in 2014 draft btw, before Brackett had as much influence.  

 

I would give credit to Brackett for the later round picks like Rathbone, Gaudette, Madden, etc. 1st round picks are the work of all the scouts and ultimately decided on by the GM. 

 

2019 draft was without Brackett and we came away with Podkolzin, Hoglander, Arturs Silovs, and Aiden McDonaugh.  Might end up being one of our best drafts if either Silovs or McDonaugh pan out. 

I think the amount of input on an pick depends on the GM.  Shen Kokaleainen was asked why (he a Finn that was familiar with Puljarivi) went with PLD he said the scouts run the draft.  Bennett no was (likely still is) very arrogant about his scouting prowess, and went to look at potential picks (guys he liked) for a few games and then overruled the scouts and picked who he wanted.  We saw it with Juiolevi, and almost saw it with Glass (over Petey) until Linden stepped in.  Then after Benning forced out Bracket we saw him laser in on Klimovich.  Stankoven was still on the board at that pick.  

[mll]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

maybe thats not a bad idea, since Euro players aren't subject to AHL-CHL age restrictions. We can get our prospects into Abby faster out of Europe. 

Not necessarily.  Depends on their contractual status.  1st round picks can be assigned to the AHL but 2nd round picks or later have to be returned to their SHL team up to age 24 (used to be 21 but they've just signed a new agreement).

 

The SHL has regularly explained their concerns that their league was getting watered down because of teams removing top players from the SHL and assigning them to the AHL.   Increasing the age should help them retain talent and keep their league competitive - ie have players develop in Sweden and by-pass the AHL.

 

From the link:  https://detroithockeynow.com/2022/04/11/nhl-deputy-commissioner-bill-daly-new-swedish-agreement-wont-undermine-teasms/

Reports say the new eight-year deal includes a provision that if a player is a draft selection after the first round, and is under age 24, he must be offered to his Swedish team before his NHL club can send him to the American League. The age used to be 21.

Daly said NHL teams are not allowed to offer “anything of value” to the Swedish team to waive its rights under the agreement.

“But there is nothing that would preclude an NHL Club from consulting with the Swedish Club in advance to understand its intentions,” Daly said.

 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, lmm said:

I think one of us misunderstands the term "Amateur Scout"

I believe Amateur Scout means, a scout who scouts amateur players it is different than being an amateur player

but who knows maybe I have been wrong all this time

As far as intellectual property, scouts, amateur and otherwise are under contract, while under contract the team "owns" their knowledge

once a team cuts a scout (or a director of scouting, or a GM)  loose, the team relinquishes the rights to what is in that persons head.

 

If Travis Green learned anything, (and I am not suggesting that he did) while he was Canuck coach, he is not obligated to forget that knowledge because he no longer works for the Canucks.

Intellectual property is not the same as knowledge gained

When we hired Benning just before the 2014 draft was his knowledge from the Boston scouts part of that draft?  Jake Virtanen was sure a Boston kind of player.  Nylander, Ehlers, and Larkin (Drance was saying recently these were who our scouts were arguing over) sure wouldn’t have been.  

[Alflives]

Just now, mll said:

Not necessarily.  Depends on their contractual status.  1st round picks can be assigned to the AHL but 2nd round picks or later have to be returned to their SHL team up to age 24 (used to be 21 but they've just signed a new agreement).

 

The SHL has regularly explained their concerns that their league was getting watered down because of teams removing top players from the SHL and assigning them to the AHL.   Increasing the age should help them retain talent and keep their league competitive - ie have players develop in Sweden and by-pass the AHL.

 

From the link:  https://detroithockeynow.com/2022/04/11/nhl-deputy-commissioner-bill-daly-new-swedish-agreement-wont-undermine-teasms/

Reports say the new eight-year deal includes a provision that if a player is a draft selection after the first round, and is under age 24, he must be offered to his Swedish team before his NHL club can send him to the American League. The age used to be 21.

Daly said NHL teams are not allowed to offer “anything of value” to the Swedish team to waive its rights under the agreement.

“But there is nothing that would preclude an NHL Club from consulting with the Swedish Club in advance to understand its intentions,” Daly said.

 

Can the player be offered to a CHL team?  Or does he have to back to Sweden?  

[Provost]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:17 AM, 6of1_halfdozenofother said:

Firing without cause would likely result in a lawsuit, and ultimately tarnish the brand.  His family ties to the former GM is not a good enough reason to fire him if they can't identify a suitable "just cause" as an excuse.  JR is savvy enough to protect the brand.

That isn't remotely true.  Employers can fire people for whatever reason they want as long as it isn't a charter of rights violation (based on gender, disabiity, etc).  They just have to give notice based on the length of service of the employee.  It is called without cause dismissal.
 

[mll]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Can the player be offered to a CHL team?  Or does he have to back to Sweden?  

Back to Sweden.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, mll said:

Not necessarily.  Depends on their contractual status.  1st round picks can be assigned to the AHL but 2nd round picks or later have to be returned to their SHL team up to age 24 (used to be 21 but they've just signed a new agreement).

 

The SHL has regularly explained their concerns that their league was getting watered down because of teams removing top players from the SHL and assigning them to the AHL.   Increasing the age should help them retain talent and keep their league competitive - ie have players develop in Sweden and by-pass the AHL.

 

From the link:  https://detroithockeynow.com/2022/04/11/nhl-deputy-commissioner-bill-daly-new-swedish-agreement-wont-undermine-teasms/

Reports say the new eight-year deal includes a provision that if a player is a draft selection after the first round, and is under age 24, he must be offered to his Swedish team before his NHL club can send him to the American League. The age used to be 21.

Daly said NHL teams are not allowed to offer “anything of value” to the Swedish team to waive its rights under the agreement.

“But there is nothing that would preclude an NHL Club from consulting with the Swedish Club in advance to understand its intentions,” Daly said.

 

oh wow, thanks for that. I didn't realize this was a thing. Does this apply as well to other leagues like Fins or Czech's?

 

Honestly @mll you provide so much good info you need your own blog.