Canada's National Energy Program (Discussion)

[J.I.A.H.N]

Well, I am sure no body is happy about the price of gas, these days, but it is totally 100% the fault of the Conservative's and the Liberals

 

First off, it was the Conservative's who sold off our Gas and Oil reserves, back in the early 80's , and it is the Liberals that are not reacting to the prices today.

 

Further more, in BC we have sold our electricity to California at a discount, that BC'ers do not enjoy. This with the pressure to reduce our carbon foot print just grinds at me.

 

IMO, I would like to see a program that is both Federal and Provincial, that protects Canadian's, and by extension BC'ers . My suggestion is the following..............

 

#1. Gas and oil should be sold a cost of exploration + production costs + 20% profit nationally and cost should have to go through audit to establish this cost

 

#2. All Electric and power alternatives, in Canada should be protected, where citizens are getting the best price..........no volume discounts abroad, where there cost is cheaper than ours. In addition, all electric costs should be 1 price, regardless if it is big business, small business, or citizen. Domestically, electricity should be priced along the same lines as my Oil and gas suggestion.

 

My rationale for this is that, these products are ours (all citizens) . Citizens are the voters, and future voters of our lands. Corporations  and business does not have a vote, and the Governments, do not or rather should not answer to them. It is a privilege to be allowed to do business in Canada and BC, and Governments should act accordingly. For those that think this will not work, refer to Norway's OIl and Gas policies for taking oil from their lands and shores. Profits are kept by the Norwegian Government and their national debt. 

 

See.........Norways Debt, which is all based on Oil and gas reserves/mining, and their national energy program. https://commodity.com/data/norway/debt-clock/

 

To quote the front page of the site: NOTE The Norwegian central government is in a net asset position, i.e. the government’s total financial assets exceed the total debt. They borrow cheap to then re-invest.

Read more at: https://commodity.com/data/norway/debt-clock/

 

Now, the discussion is not about the Norwegian National Energy Program, or what ever it is called, but about, how our National Energy Program is/has been mishandle by our politicians, and how we should demand a quick and thorough policy, one which benefits Canadian voters (the owners of our resources!)

 

Note: a barrel of oil today is trading at approx. $109 US = $137 Canadian or approx. or 160 liters per barrel = 68 cents a liter (Canadian)

 

[JM_]

Good ideas @J.I.A.H.N but Alberta will never agree to anything under world prices, and they will never agree to any kind of central control of "their" oil. 

 

Electric and hydrogen are the future, and not put any more gov't money into oil. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, JM_ said:

Good ideas @J.I.A.H.N but Alberta will never agree to anything under world prices, and they will never agree to any kind of central control of "their" oil. 

 

Electric and hydrogen are the future, and not put any more gov't money into oil. 

I think there are ways around Alberta's position, that would appease Alberta.........not exactly sure what it is, but I bet they want BC electrical power?????????

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

I think there are ways around Alberta's position, that would appease Alberta.........not exactly sure what it is, but I bet they want BC electrical power?????????

I'm afraid not J. Its generational BS there now, its all the Trudeau family to blame and everyone else in Canada is a freeloader. Better to not waste time trying to work with AB, I'd be looking for ideas that had no reliance on them, its pushing a rope. 

[Warhippy]

Oh...you....you wanna do this?

 

Ok.

 

Back in the 1970s when OPEC put the boots to the US and G8 at the time causing the energy crisis that directly helped cause the massive inflationary and interest issues we saw in the early to mid 80s, we had a PM that outright said Canada as an energy rich nation should never be beholden to foreign powers on energy and should maintain and control our own destiny in the energy markets.  At that time, charts indicated canada was one of the top 10 holders of oil/gas energy reserves in the world.  new exploration shows 3rd largest.  

 

At that point canada as a nation owned large portions of the Alberta and Saskatchewan oil sands development in trust to the canadian people and a plan wa simplemented that indicated every province should have a refinery and petrochemical upgrader as well as pipeline terminal hubs and an emergency national energy supply similar to Americas.  They wanted pipelines running from the prairies to 2 points in BC.  Churchill Manitoba through Hudson Bay.  another in Fort Albany, 1 in Quebec, one on the St Lawrence.  With 2 more towards New Brunswick.  This plan also called for the offshore exploration of oil and gas reserves in BC and Newfoundland.

 

The idea was to mine, refine and then sell to Canadians at below market prices to ensure that costs on transportation were cut down and to ensure heating costs for home owners never got to the point that people risked freezing in the winter over keeping a roof over their head.  They wanted a plan similar to Norway in which a percentage of sales on the world market went in to a trust.

 

There were huge issues with the plan as it stood.  Some constitutional and others of course with logistics.  At that point the US created a national strategy similar to Canada's to ensure they never risked OPEC putting their boots on the neck of the US military machine.  That was when the Alaskan pipeline really became a massive project and development in the NE bakkans as well as the gulf of Mexico really exploded.  The US knew canada had massive reserves and as a safe neighbour would and could be coerced or controlled in to using the US terminals in Texas and the Gulf as a major point of entry as they already had dozens of refineries in operation in the Gulf and various states along the route.

 

At that point the US flooded canada with money.  The plan was to convince Canadians that this was a bad idea.  That it was a socialist plot.  That Western sentiments and control were going to be stolen by eastern powers in Ottawa and that Alberta would lose control of their own ability to dictate their energy prices.

 

The plan worked.  Trudeau and the NEP were not just defeated but destroyed.  The Conservatives then spent over a decade selling off every single aspect of canadian owned crown corp involvement in energy production.  The US government and big oil executives got exactly what they wanted.  Canada now had exactly ONE market to sell oil to.  Cheaply, unrefined.  They would then refine it and sell the refined product BACK to canadians at an inflated price.  This ensured the US had cheap viable oil and allowe oil execs the benefit of double dipping on the downstream and upstream end of things.  Because Canadian governments were still funding oil exploration  and subsidizing not only workers training  but also the clean up and spill mitigation; it also gave oil companies HUGE profit margins to keep producing in Canada even though production costs were that much higher.

 

The estimated cost right now as it stands based on the most recent refinery and petrochemical upgrader built in canada to achieve one of both in ever province is upwards of $200 BILLION.  Top achieve the port and pipelines desired is almost $136 billion.  This would be a direct investment in tax dollars at todays prices.  This is without mentioning the actual cost of buying/leasing land from Alberta and then developing this ourselves which could easily add another $30 billion on the low end to make it viable on the national scale.

 

All told for canada to wrestle control of the original NEP as it existed the estimate would be upwards of possible $500 billion all told.  This is in an era where nations and financial institutions are divesting themselves of oil and gas development and green energy or supposed green energy is on the rise and could supplant oil and gas needs by 2050.  This would mean an almost immediate loss to Canadians and would in fact do almost nothing to help solve the debt or energy crisis.

 

We are 40 years to late to the party.  There were major issues and problems with the NEP but well placed ads, well spent money and a convincing argument ensured it died on the floor of the house and the election in 84.

 

The NEP would have done EVERYTHING PET said it would.  And everything he said would happen if it was not implemented in some fashion to the detriment of canadians did happen.

 

Like it or not, the NEP was a good idea and should have been made to happen.  Now we dont have the time, money or political will to fight the corporations or America on it.  And in Alberta it has been A trudeau's fault since the 80s and every possible life issue or bump in the road for the province has been blamed on a trudeau, the liberals, ottawa, leftists or environmentalists for over 40 years since.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Warhippy

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

Oh...you....you wanna do this?

 

Ok.

 

Back in the 1970s when OPEC put the boots to the US and G8 at the time causing the energy crisis that directly helped cause the massive inflationary and interest issues we saw in the early to mid 80s, we had a PM that outright said Canada as an energy rich nation should never be beholden to foreign powers on energy and should maintain and control our own destiny in the energy markets.  At that time, charts indicated canada was one of the top 10 holders of oil/gas energy reserves in the world.  new exploration shows 3rd largest.  

 

At that point canada as a nation owned large portions of the Alberta and Saskatchewan oil sands development in trust to the canadian people and a plan wa simplemented that indicated every province should have a refinery and petrochemical upgrader as well as pipeline terminal hubs and an emergency national energy supply similar to Americas.  They wanted pipelines running from the prairies to 2 points in BC.  Churchill Manitoba through Hudson Bay.  another in Fort Albany, 1 in Quebec, one on the St Lawrence.  With 2 more towards New Brunswick.  This plan also called for the offshore exploration of oil and gas reserves in BC and Newfoundland.

 

The idea was to mine, refine and then sell to Canadians at below market prices to ensure that costs on transportation were cut down and to ensure heating costs for home owners never got to the point that people risked freezing in the winter over keeping a roof over their head.  They wanted a plan similar to Norway in which a percentage of sales on the world market went in to a trust.

 

There were huge issues with the plan as it stood.  Some constitutional and others of course with logistics.  At that point the US created a national strategy similar to Canada's to ensure they never risked OPEC putting their boots on the neck of the US military machine.  That was when the Alaskan pipeline really became a massive project and development in the NE bakkans as well as the gulf of Mexico really exploded.  The US knew canada had massive reserves and as a safe neighbour would and could be coerced or controlled in to using the US terminals in Texas and the Gulf as a major point of entry as they already had dozens of refineries in operation in the Gulf and various states along the route.

 

At that point the US flooded canada with money.  The plan was to convince Canadians that this was a bad idea.  That it was a socialist plot.  That Western sentiments and control were going to be stolen by eastern powers in Ottawa and that Alberta would lose control of their own ability to dictate their energy prices.

 

The plan worked.  Trudeau and the NEP were not just defeated but destroyed.  The Conservatives then spent over a decade selling off every single aspect of canadian owned crown corp involvement in energy production.  The US government and big oil executives got exactly what they wanted.  Canada now had exactly ONE market to sell oil to.  Cheaply, unrefined.  They would then refine it and sell the refined product BACK to canadians at an inflated price.  This ensured the US had cheap viable oil and allowe oil execs the benefit of double dipping on the downstream and upstream end of things.  Because Canadian governments were still funding oil exploration  and subsidizing not only workers training  but also the clean up and spill mitigation; it also gave oil companies HUGE profit margins to keep producing in Canada even though production costs were that much higher.

 

The estimated cost right now as it stands based on the most recent refinery and petrochemical upgrader built in canada to achieve one of both in ever province is upwards of $200 BILLION.  Top achieve the port and pipelines desired is almost $136 billion.  This would be a direct investment in tax dollars at todays prices.  This is without mentioning the actual cost of buying/leasing land from Alberta and then developing this ourselves which could easily add another $30 billion on the low end to make it viable on the national scale.

 

All told for canada to wrestle control of the original NEP as it existed the estimate would be upwards of possible $500 billion all told.  This is in an era where nations and financial institutions are divesting themselves of oil and gas development and green energy or supposed green energy is on the rise and could supplant oil and gas needs by 2050.  This would mean an almost immediate loss to Canadians and would in fact do almost nothing to help solve the debt or energy crisis.

 

We are 40 years to late to the party.  There were major issues and problems with the NEP but well placed ads, well spent money and a convincing argument ensured it died on the floor of the house and the election in 84.

 

The NEP would have done EVERYTHING PET said it would.  And everything he said would happen if it was not implemented in some fashion to the detriment of canadians did happen.

 

Like it or not, the NEP was a good idea and should have been made to happen.  Now we dont have the time, money or political will to fight the corporations or America on it.

There are people you work with, and those that you work around. AB is in the work around camp. 

 

Its not culturally possible to get them to the table for something with a national focus. Its never, ever going to happen. All of the history you reference just entrenches the AB fight mentality. How about we do something new?

 

We do have other opportunities for energy in Canada, lets do those. 

 

[Warhippy]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

There are people you work with, and those that you work around. AB is in the work around camp. 

 

Its not culturally possible to get them to the table for something with a national focus. Its never, ever going to happen. All of the history you reference just entrenches the AB fight mentality. How about we do something new?

 

We do have other opportunities for energy in Canada, lets do those. 

 

I said it years ago.  BC would have been smart to thumb their nose at AB and work with the feds on building an offshore supply and terminus in the northern end of Vancouver island.  All reports and testing show that BC has offshore reserves that are massive, it is the sweet easily refined crude sought after by oil companies.  Give the control to first nations and get ready to send it west to market.  Dump a pipeline back to the east towards Vancouver and bam.  BC is making billions in offshore development.

 

But again, no will, no fight.  We as a nation missed our boat.  And we are being gas lit by Alberta who refuses to accept ANY of the blame for it.

 

A multi generational victim complex where it is Ottawas fault, the Liberals, Trudeau, Leftists, environmentalists, Foreign hippy money you name it.  Not one gd time is it "hey guys...maybe WE screwed up" after all.

 

I HATE this argument because I get so gd heated about it.  Looking at what canada COULD have been, how we COULD and SHOULD have benefitted from our wealth and instead, we opted to sell to our neighbours at the cheapest prices possible and then buy it back at the most inflated prices that seemed reasonable and called it smart business.

[Boudrias]

22 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

Well, I am sure no body is happy about the price of gas, these days, but it is totally 100% the fault of the Conservative's and the Liberals

 

First off, it was the Conservative's who sold off our Gas and Oil reserves, back in the early 80's , and it is the Liberals that are not reacting to the prices today.

 

Further more, in BC we have sold our electricity to California at a discount, that BC'ers do not enjoy. This with the pressure to reduce our carbon foot print just grinds at me.

 

IMO, I would like to see a program that is both Federal and Provincial, that protects Canadian's, and by extension BC'ers . My suggestion is the following..............

 

#1. Gas and oil should be sold a cost of exploration + production costs + 20% profit nationally and cost should have to go through audit to establish this cost

 

#2. All Electric and power alternatives, in Canada should be protected, where citizens are getting the best price..........no volume discounts abroad, where there cost is cheaper than ours. In addition, all electric costs should be 1 price, regardless if it is big business, small business, or citizen. Domestically, electricity should be priced along the same lines as my Oil and gas suggestion.

 

My rationale for this is that, these products are ours (all citizens) . Citizens are the voters, and future voters of our lands. Corporations  and business does not have a vote, and the Governments, do not or rather should not answer to them. It is a privilege to be allowed to do business in Canada and BC, and Governments should act accordingly. For those that think this will not work, refer to Norway's OIl and Gas policies for taking oil from their lands and shores. Profits are kept by the Norwegian Government and their national debt. 

 

See.........Norways Debt, which is all based on Oil and gas reserves/mining, and their national energy program. https://commodity.com/data/norway/debt-clock/

 

To quote the front page of the site: NOTE The Norwegian central government is in a net asset position, i.e. the government’s total financial assets exceed the total debt. They borrow cheap to then re-invest.

Read more at: https://commodity.com/data/norway/debt-clock/

 

Now, the discussion is not about the Norwegian National Energy Program, or what ever it is called, but about, how our National Energy Program is/has been mishandle by our politicians, and how we should demand a quick and thorough policy, one which benefits Canadian voters (the owners of our resources!)

 

Note: a barrel of oil today is trading at approx. $109 US = $137 Canadian or approx. or 160 liters per barrel = 68 cents a liter (Canadian)

 

How did you come up with the 20% profit figure? That might have been a losing construct from 2015 till the better part of 2020. Does your plan include all mineral wealth across Canada? Is hydro power included in that? I assuming your focus on oil and gas is because of pump prices. Take some time and try and figure out the current government take from that $2.00 per litre pump price. Not just provincial, federal and GVRD taxes but also corporate and wage taxes. My guess is that with carbon tax and direct fed and prov taxes your well over $0.70. Google is not your friend in this matter. 

 

I always find this a tad ironic that people focus on the oil industry. Sask produces fertilizer that is essential to food production. Do we seize their assets as well? Nickel in Ontario for batteries, essential? Fish stocks from BC and the Maratimes feed people. Essential? Quebec sells over $2 billion a year of power to New York? 

Taxpayers of Canada have funneled many billions of $ into AutoPact does that earn us a fixed cost car? 

 

Ownership of resources was given to the provinces under Confederation to limit the power of Ottawa. The two most maligned provinces, Alberta and Saskatchewan didn't get full resource ownership until the 1980's I think. The rest of Canada got theirs when they joined Confederation. 

 

The comparison to Norway's wealth fund is worthwhile. Norway doesn't have provinces so does not have the problem of jurisdiction. All their production is offshore. My problem with the Norges is they talk a holier than tho message when Canadian oil production was being shut in but their production goes on unabated and is growing. I like the idea of a Heritage Fund no matter how badly it was managed by Alberta. IMHO the federal government should be the facilitator of a national energy plan that is aimed at specific goals. There has to be room for all parties to benefit. 

 

If you believe, like I do, that the world will be consuming hydrocarbons for decades then Canada should be utilizing this resource to achieve strategic goals. Defense of the North comes quickly to mind. Diversification of our economy. Limiting our dominance by the Americans.  

[JM_]

17 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

I said it years ago.  BC would have been smart to thumb their nose at AB and work with the feds on building an offshore supply and terminus in the northern end of Vancouver island.  All reports and testing show that BC has offshore reserves that are massive, it is the sweet easily refined crude sought after by oil companies.  Give the control to first nations and get ready to send it west to market.  Dump a pipeline back to the east towards Vancouver and bam.  BC is making billions in offshore development.

 

But again, no will, no fight.  We as a nation missed our boat.  And we are being gas lit by Alberta who refuses to accept ANY of the blame for it.

 

A multi generational victim complex where it is Ottawas fault, the Liberals, Trudeau, Leftists, environmentalists, Foreign hippy money you name it.  Not one gd time is it "hey guys...maybe WE screwed up" after all.

 

I HATE this argument because I get so gd heated about it.  Looking at what canada COULD have been, how we COULD and SHOULD have benefitted from our wealth and instead, we opted to sell to our neighbours at the cheapest prices possible and then buy it back at the most inflated prices that seemed reasonable and called it smart business.

let it go Hip. Its gone, it can't be fixed, it can't be resurrected.

 

Now, how about we discuss Haida Global Oil Co? now that would be something. 

[Boudrias]

2 minutes ago, JM_ said:

let it go Hip. Its gone, it can't be fixed, it can't be resurrected.

 

Now, how about we discuss Haida Global Oil Co? now that would be something. 

When I was in the business there were 5 or 6 refineries in the Lower Mainland. Today I think only Parkland still exists and it runs about 50,000 boe per day. I think the safer bet would be LNG. If memory serves Alberta still has 5 refineries, the biggest being Shell's Scotford which is up to +200,000 boe per day. Most world class refiners won't look at plants that produce less than 500,000 boe/day. Suncor has a couple of Mid-West USA refineries but not sure about size other than that they are big. 

 

Remember the western Canadian market is diesel fuel heavy which generates surplus gasoline out of a barrel of crude. In my day that surplus gas was exported to the USA. So it is highly likely the gasoline being bought by Canadians along the border is from Canadian crude. Why is it cheaper? Primarily because, in my time, only states levied a road tax and they were scared stiff of their constituents if they raised taxes. 

 

Have to go. Thrash it out guys.  

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Boudrias said:

When I was in the business there were 5 or 6 refineries in the Lower Mainland. Today I think only Parkland still exists and it runs about 50,000 boe per day. I think the safer bet would be LNG. If memory serves Alberta still has 5 refineries, the biggest being Shell's Scotford which is up to +200,000 boe per day. Most world class refiners won't look at plants that produce less than 500,000 boe/day. Suncor has a couple of Mid-West USA refineries but not sure about size other than that they are big. 

 

Remember the western Canadian market is diesel fuel heavy which generates surplus gasoline out of a barrel of crude. In my day that surplus gas was exported to the USA. So it is highly likely the gasoline being bought by Canadians along the border is from Canadian crude. Why is it cheaper? Primarily because, in my time, only states levied a road tax and they were scared stiff of their constituents if they raised taxes. 

 

Have to go. Thrash it out guys.  

yup that one still exists in Burnaby.

 

I just think any hope of having some sort of national conversation over oil is dead in Canada, for many reasons. As you point out, there are provincial rights. So entrenched that they prevent the kind of cooperation needed to do something like Norway did. Add to that all the cultural horse crap and its over before it started.

 

AB may well end up shipping LNG through a BC port(s), but I can't see it being part of any kind of national program. 

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

yup that one still exists in Burnaby.

 

I just think any hope of having some sort of national conversation over oil is dead in Canada, for many reasons. As you point out, there are provincial rights. So entrenched that they prevent the kind of cooperation needed to do something like Norway did. Add to that all the cultural horse crap and its over before it started.

 

AB may well end up shipping LNG through a BC port(s), but I can't see it being part of any kind of national program. 

Bottom line is that there is nothing standing in the way of the federal government buying another oil company. If they had done it 1 1/2 years ago they could have got it for 10 cents on the dollar. Why wouldn't that work? If the Canadian government owned their own oil company they could do nation to nation deals. Heck their increasing Trans Mountain by 500,000 boe/day. Use that. 

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Boudrias said:

Bottom line is that there is nothing standing in the way of the federal government buying another oil company. If they had done it 1 1/2 years ago they could have got it for 10 cents on the dollar. Why wouldn't that work? If the Canadian government owned their own oil company they could do nation to nation deals. Heck their increasing Trans Mountain by 500,000 boe/day. Use that. 

IF it was used for increasing first nations ownership in these projects I'm all for that. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

So this is all great conversation, and it leads me to a question that is BC based................Is Confederation serving BCers? 

 

We are a resource based province and we "could be" as wealthy as Norway ourselves.........................................................

 

As a BC separatists, I feel we are handcuffed by our associationship/relationship with the rest of Canada..........we are larger than Norway in land mass, we have a better climate, 

we have a population that equals Norway, and are multi-resourced based........................not in order!

 

#1...............Oil and Gas................Huge oil reserves off shore and natural gas reserves in north eastern BC

#2................Hydro electric.............largest Hydro producer on the west coast

#3................Deep Sea Ports.........the only Canadian access to the Pacific

#4................land diversified...........agriculture farming, live stock farming, fruit farming

#5................Fisheries.....................natural, and aquaculture 

#6................Forestry.......................Large Forests

#7................film Industry.................renewable

#8................Tourist industry............renewable

#9................Water...........................renewable and more valuable than oil

10................Mining

 

IMO, we have not in anyway, tapped into our potential, and IMO, we are somewhat dictated to by Eastern Canada.

 

Note...........Offshore Oil and Gas reserves. Todays safety measures can make it safe to mine offshore oil reserves. (see Norway).....Our Deep Sea ports can ship out products from Alberta, Sask, and Manitoba for Pan Pacific markets. We can work with our Alberta and Saskatchewan neighbors to export their goods....aka grain, oil and natural gas.

 

We hold alot of cards, yet, I do not see how we are benefitting?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So this is all great conversation, and it leads me to a question that is BC based................Is Confederation serving BCers? 

 

We are a resource based province and we "could be" as wealthy as Norway ourselves.........................................................

 

As a BC separatists, I feel we are handcuffed by our associationship/relationship with the rest of Canada..........we are larger than Norway in land mass, we have a better climate, 

we have a population that equals Norway, and are multi-resourced based........................not in order!

 

#1...............Oil and Gas................Huge oil reserves off shore and natural gas reserves in north eastern BC

#2................Hydro electric.............largest Hydro producer on the west coast

#3................Deep Sea Ports.........the only Canadian access to the Pacific

#4................land diversified...........agriculture farming, live stock farming, fruit farming

#5................Fisheries.....................natural, and aquaculture 

#6................Forestry.......................Large Forests

#7................film Industry.................renewable

#8................Tourist industry............renewable

#9................Water...........................renewable and more valuable than oil

 

IMO, we have not in anyway, tapped into our potential, and IMO, we are somewhat dictated to by Eastern Canada.

 

Note...........Offshore Oil and Gas reserves. Todays safety measures can make it safe to mine offshore oil reserves. (see Norway).....Our Deep Sea ports can ship out products from Alberta, Sask, and Manitoba for Pan Pacific markets. We can work with our Alberta and Saskatchewan neighbors to export their goods....aka grain, oil and natural gas.

 

We hold alot of cards, yet, I do not see how we are benefitting?

No doubt we could be quite a rich, small country. It probably makes the most sense for BC to separate than any other province given the pac rim opportunities. We'd have AB at a very different position at the negotiating table as well. 

 

So... how do we defend ourselves? I think the US looks at that gap between Washington state and AK and gets "ideas". 

 

Also, 1/2 of BC is hippy dippy lefties we have to drag into this, who will want to export Lotus leaves and macrame and not oil. What do we do with them?

 

Kidding aside, BC would be in a terrific spot and could control immigration to a huge benefit (i.e. no more oldies from the prairies retiring to Victoria).

 

Whats the approach with first nations? lots of issues there. 

 

But would we really be better off? We don't have the victim mentality of AB and SK so I'm not sure this would have legs. 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

7 minutes ago, JM_ said:

No doubt we could be quite a rich, small country. It probably makes the most sense for BC to separate than any other province given the pac rim opportunities. We'd have AB at a very different position at the negotiating table as well. 

 

So... how do we defend ourselves? I think the US looks at that gap between Washington state and AK and gets "ideas". 

 

Also, 1/2 of BC is hippy dippy lefties we have to drag into this, who will want to export Lotus leaves and macrame and not oil. What do we do with them?

 

Kidding aside, BC would be in a terrific spot and could control immigration to a huge benefit (i.e. no more oldies from the prairies retiring to Victoria).

 

Whats the approach with first nations? lots of issues there. 

 

But would we really be better off? We don't have the victim mentality of AB and SK so I'm not sure this would have legs. 

 

Well I know 1 War hippy, that I have doubts about!

 

But seriously...................and I mean no slight...............lets deal with BC land claims now! I do not agree with them, but I am one, with one vote.............but lets look at it this way.

 

There are about 250,000 first nations people in BC. So let us start with money, and give equality for all............keeping in mind I am 1/16 first nations, and my father was 1/8, my grand father on my dad's side was 1/4 and so on..............

 

Follow the the bouncing ball on this one! We separate from Canada. We then drill the west coast. (Norway took 1.8 million barrels out per day, as a low, which at $109 per barrel, equals $71,000,000,000 per year as a low, and 3.4 million barrels a day as a high, which equals $135,000,000,000 per year. we then give every first nation man woman and child, 1 years worth of oil divided by 250,000 first nations = $540,000.00 each and then a 5% residual per year for one full generation = 20 years, continue to recognize all first nation reserves as tax free, then from that day forward, all first nation claims will be abolished. 

 

Now, I am sure, it is not all that simple, but the point is, there is plenty of wealth to go around and all men, women and children and that all could be treated equal. You can not blame history for all your problems, whether you are first nations, Chinese, or poor white trash (I having coming a very poor family), nor anyone I missed.

 

Now in saying all this garbly goop, you can not fix everything with money, but we all must rise above our ancestry, whether the oppressed or the shame of being the oppressor.

 

Now, James, you brought up the first nations part of this issue, and I believe there are some real serious issues to be dealt with, that should not be flippantly discussed on a Canuck forum, but my point is, we would be better off long term dealing with our own issues, out here in BC, whether my math is right or wrong

[J.I.A.H.N]

42 minutes ago, JM_ said:

No doubt we could be quite a rich, small country. It probably makes the most sense for BC to separate than any other province given the pac rim opportunities. We'd have AB at a very different position at the negotiating table as well. 

 

So... how do we defend ourselves? I think the US looks at that gap between Washington state and AK and gets "ideas". ......Join NATO

 

Also, 1/2 of BC is hippy dippy lefties we have to drag into this, who will want to export Lotus leaves and macrame and not oil. What do we do with them? Deport them

 

Kidding aside, BC would be in a terrific spot and could control immigration to a huge benefit (i.e. no more oldies from the prairies retiring to Victoria).

 

Whats the approach with first nations? lots of issues there.  See above

 

But would we really be better off? We don't have the victim mentality of AB and SK so I'm not sure this would have legs. You are not a victim if you deal with your own problems

 

NATO

Deport them

See above

Deal with our problems

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by J.I.A.H.N

[Boudrias]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

IF it was used for increasing first nations ownership in these projects I'm all for that. 

I don't have a problem with that idea. 

[Boudrias]

32 minutes ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

NATO

Deport them

See above

Deal with our problems

 

 

Last summer I had an interesting conversation with a Norge tourist. I kinda recognized a German accent and said something to him. Thought he might be related to ABBA or some strange thing.  Anyway I was right he was German and had moved to Norway. He tells me he is a doctor and that the Norges had paid for his education. Says it is great in Norway as the government pays for a lot of stuff. There are no poor people in Norway. If you don't have a job the government pays you anyway. I was about ready to break out the old canoe and start paddling. 

 

Before you get to deep into the planning I don't know about your oil reserve estimates. There never was much drilling if any done off the coast. The environmental risk would be high but I don't know whether it would be worse than the North Sea. That said why risk it? BC has some of the largest natural gas deposits in North America. During my time with Reform we did look at the Swiss canton form of government. For a country of 5 million it would work great. You would really have to watch the immigration as there would be untold numbers wanting to come. 

[JM_]

13 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

I don't have a problem with that idea. 

I actually have thought for a while now First Nations mega projects are the answer. Our provincial and federal gov'ts have proven how useless they can be on this file. I also think we suffer from buying into too much negative media. I mean who cares what Leo DiCaprio thinks of the oil sands? many seem to.

 

First Nations led projects tho are a different story. It has the capacity to do so much good and cut though the BS from the media and greenwasher's.